Talk:Buchenwald concentration camp

Vandalism-user 24.1.149.187 is a repeat vandal

user 24.1.149.187 is a repeat vandal, not only to this article but in his various other changes to various other articles. In the Buchenwald concentration camp article, 24.1.149.187 (1) replaced the correct date of April 4, 1945, for when the U.S. 89th Infantry Division overran Ohrdruf, a subcamp of the Buchenwald with the incorrect date of April 5; (2) replaced name "Patton" with "fart"; (3) replaced name Keffer with "JackAss"; and (4) added the line "* horus a. fagat, died of flesh-eating nanobots in 1993". diremarc (talk) 06:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep an eye out

This page was blanked and listed for speedy deletion by anonymous user 152.163.100.199. It may pay to keep an eye on it. Lisiate 23:14, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Essen

Which Essen is meant in the section on female prisoners? Saintswithin 10:22, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Illegal

I removed the word "illegal" from the following sentence: "The camp was also the site of large-scale illegal testing of vaccines for epidemic typhus..." due to it being superfluous. Clearly, as testing was being performed by an official government branch, it was not technically illegal. As for its legality in international post-war courts, this is more or less irrelevant in the sentence.

I do not mean to nitpick, but the reason I remove this bit is that it might confuse people. Not removing the word "illegal" may lead one to think that the camp commanders were, contrary to orders from the central nazi government, experimenting on humans. This would then be faulty. --TVPR 00:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Liberated by Americans or liberated by prisoners?

German Wikipedia writes that the camp was not liberated by the Americans but self-liberated by the prisoners. I will give the article a factual accuracy warning. See also this German language website [1] Andries 18:27, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The Nazis left the camp before the US Army arrived. So I wonder whether the term 'liberated' is correct at all? 'Liberation' implies a specific action. A good description of the event is at: ww.remember.org/witness/herder.html I'll have a go at editing the article and remove the warning. --Maustrauser 06:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

my grandfather was in this camp... i think it was here that his brother and father died. They were given a death injection 2 weeks before liberation.

I believe that there was a prisoner revolt in Buchenwald, at least, that's what I here from my grandfather and grandmother, both survivors.

According to Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust, "On April 8 [1945], almost all the Jewish inmates at Buchenwald ... were marched out, leaving the non-Jewish prisoners to await the arrival of the Americans. ... A few Jews had managed to hide in Buchenwald during the 'evacuation' of April 8... Three days after most of the Jews had been marched out of the camp, American forces arrived.' (p 792). Sounds as if there was a three day period when the camp was under the control of the inmates (ie the Nazis had all left) before the arrival of the US army. Neither 'revolt' or 'liberation' seems to fit exactly. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 17:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

In archives of the Dutch Institute of War Documentation (NIOD) are a number of accounts of inmates, written in 1945 and 1946. They stem from Dutch and German inmates. They describe that a part of the SS left the camp accompanying mainly Jewish and Russian prisoners who were evacuated in deadly marshes to other destinations. In the period 1942-45 German communists had organized 850 prisoners of different nationalities in military groups existing of 5 men. Many of them had fought in the Spanish civil war. It is not clear whether due to the evacuation all these 850 men were still available. Arms had been organized since 1942. In 1945 they had one machine gun with 2000 shots ammunition, 91 rifles a few pistols and a number of knifes and swords. When the first American troops approached the camp the guards at the watchtowers started to shoot at unknown targets, maybe they were just nervous. At that moment communist groups stormed the watchtowers and killed the guards. In the accounts stemming from a German inmate especially the importance of the contribution of Belgian inmates is mentioned. A few hours later an American officer came at the main gate and told that an American tank colonna did pass the camp and that the prisoners should protect themselves. For this self protection were also available the arms they looted from the German guards and stocks. Two days later American troops took over control of the camp and the inmates handed over their arms. So, in some way you can call it a self liberation, but without the leave of a major part of the SS and without the presence of American troops in the immediate neighbourhood the self liberation would have had no chance of success.

The archives of the USHHM has a good picture of post-liberation worship meeting - gives rabbi's name - many/thousands? were in one hall - very healthy looking. 159.105.80.141 19:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

While my late father reported to have entered Buchenwald with the 4th Engineer Combat Battalion attached to the 22nd Infantry Regiment,and the 12th cited in this article, after lookng into it it seems these units, part of the 4th Infantry Division were in Bavaria at the time south of Dachau. What does anyone know about this? What is the source of the 22nd/12IR claim here?Marky48 03:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Photo

That's a horrible photo, can barely tell what it is (upside down guy behind a fence, I assume dead?), defeintely has to be changed. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 21:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it mentioned anywhere that Buchenwald was a prison before the war

The horrors aren't described.

The current text includes this sentence "It was used to house German prisoners, and Soviet records indicate that over 7,000 died." but there is no mention of the numbers who died while the camp was run by the Nazis. Likely the number was 100 times that, or more.... is it really enough to say that prisoners were used for labor? It was *not* a POW labor camp. It was a concentration/death camp.

It is true that it was a concentration camp. But there have been murdered tens of thousands of Russian POW's in a very cruel way.

Die Hexe von Buchenwald

I question whether Ilse Koch was really known informally as "The Bitch of Buchenwald". Bitch (Huendin) and witch (Hexe) are not homonyms in German, and bitch is not used as an insult, either. The German version of the Buchenwald KZ article just calls her "Hexe" and makes no mention of other descriptions. Anything to back up that she was called "Bitch of Buchenwald"? Pending that, I'll change the sentence to something along the lines that the name loosely translates as "Bitch etc" YggdrasilsRoot 15:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The best translation is whatever English word best conveys the sense of the German word. I would think that "bitch" or even "beast" would be better here than "witch". In English we don't think of witches as particularly cruel and brutal. However someone has monkeyed around with your edit, and it looks odd. I will change it back. 144.9.8.21 19:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Elie Wiesel at Buchenwald?

The picture at the top of the page on the right hand side says Elie Wiesel can be seen in a photo taken from Buchenwald. Elie Wiesel is the author of the book Night, a true account story of his life during the Holocaust, and I happen to have read a large portion of the book just last night. I read nothing about Buchenwald. He was taken straight from the ghetto in Hungary to Auschwitz-Birkenau, what I recall to be a four-day train ride. Buchenwald is in Germany, and Auschwitz is in Poland. Not only did he mention nothing of Buchwald, but Buchenwald is a very illogical checkpoint to go through on your way from Hungary to Poland. Someone might care to research this further and either correct or remove the photograph and its caption.

I've learned Wiesel was taken from Auschwitz to Buchenwald near the end of the war. This subject can be deleted.

Hi, I was wondering. The picture it says was taken on the 16th of April, 1945, but according to Wiesel in Night, he left Buchenwald on the 11th. Is this maybe because the Russians and the Eastern Parts of Europe (e.g. Rumania, where Wiesel comes from) was behind the standard European calendar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by VABK (talk • contribs) 15:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Aftermath documentation??

This entire section lacks documentation and is subject to deletion. Can anyone provide credible citations? Thanks.Skywriter 22:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Second Request for Documentation

My request for documentation was reverted by HanzoHattori who does not seem to grasp the need for and requirement for documentation. The above request for documentation is reinstated and I ask this new and apparently inexperienced user to please avoid labeling colleagues as "trolls" or "vandals" as this is both off-putting and can quickly lead to troubles. Thank you. Skywriter 18:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Liberated by uprising of Communist prisoners

It wasn't "evacuated" - the guards fled. Communists were previously priviledged, and they all wore worker's caps or berets. They were also relatively well fed.

Someone correct this. HanzoHattori 11:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a very disgusting remark. Communists were not privileged. Many thousands of communists were murdered in Buchenwald. For the West-European countries like Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway the majority of murdered people stemming from these countries were communists. This remark is of the same order as a holocaust denial. Shame on you!Robvhoorn (talk) 07:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Bad English or true, in which case, where's the source?

It was used to house German prisoners, and Soviet records indicate that over 7,000 died.

Sound like the 7000 German prisoners died here. Is this correct? Source?

While we're at it this article seems to lack source all over, no?

Yes, 7,113 Germans died in Special camp #2 at Buchenwald between 1945 and 1950. My source is "Buchenwald, A tour of the memorial site" purchased at the Buchenwald memorial. Sorry...no ISBN on the guide book. Motorfix 23:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"Many thousands of prisoners (estimates range from 12,000 to over 22,000) would die at the camp while in the Soviet Union's control"

Where do these figures come from? The official Soviet records indicate that 7,113 persons died at the camp during Soviet control. See the KZ Buchenwald website for this (click on History, then Soviet Special Camp, then scroll down to penultimate paragraph). It is possible that more people died than was recorded, but the official figure should certainly be mentioned and the current figures need referencing. They sound rather high. Dross2 17:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Ettersburg

The word "Buchenwald" (German for "beech forest") was chosen because the Nazi authorities were not willing to name it after the Ettersburg (the keep) or Ettersberg (the mountain)...

Is that correct? --Plankton5005 17:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be, at least according to the German Wikipedia article, which the paragraph containing this statement seems to be a partial translation of. Jim_Lockhart 06:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

THERE IS NO MENTION ABOUT JEWS BEING HELD THERE!

WHY IS THERE NO MENTION IN THIS ARTICLE ABOUT JEWS?

General "blank" has been replaced with fart's, and captain "blank" has been replaced with JackAss, i don't know who these people were, but i doubt that the present names are accurate Jdoyonw12 (talk) 00:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Number of deaths in Buchenwald

The text in the paragraph about number of deaths in Buchenwald is more or less the same as on the separate wiki-page about number of deaths in Buchenwald (see the link to this page).

The reason that I have put information about statistics on deaths in Buchenwald on both pages, is that I think, it is of relevance both if you are specifically interested in Buchenwald. But it is also of interest if you are interested in the number of deaths in concentration camps in general. I have linked from the page "List of Nazi-German concentration camps" to the wiki page about Number of deaths in Buchenwald. Anette B 13:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Your additions are fine, although they need to be reworked a bit. Also, could you provide line-page citations for the information derived from Bartel in Buchenwald—Mahnung und Verpflichtung: Dokumente und Berichte? Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 14:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have made four changes:

1. I have changed ”Thanks to” to “Because of”. The reason is that I think of the word thanks to have primarily positive connotations. Whether the administrative collaboration between the Danish civil service and the German occupation forces was “right” is still open to debate.
2. I have changed “The same negotiations” to “The negotiations between the Danish civil service and the German occupation forces”. It is my impression that what actually happened in the negotiations between the Danish civil service and the German occupation forces is somewhat opaque (the Danish civil service operated without guidance from the politicians). So I think it is prudent just to mention the counterparts in the negotiations.
3. I have changed “; nonetheless, 62 Danish policemen died at Buchenwald.” to ”While they were at Buchenwald 62 Danish policemen died.”
4. I have changed “One cause of the deaths in the Buchenwald concentration camp was illness due to harsh camp conditions; for many more, the cause of death was murder.“ to “One cause of the deaths in the Buchenwald concentration camp was illness due to harsh camp conditions. Hunger was prevalent in the camp. Other prisoners were murdered.” What I have gathered from the sources I’ve seen is that hunger and disease was the most prevalent causes of death. Anette B 11:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Annette B! First, let me thank you for adding so many precise citations; that was wonderful.

1. You are correct about “thanks to,” although I believe that here any concerns about the moral status of the negotiations between the civil service and the occupation force—whether they were “right” or not—is moot, and that “thanks to” refers only to the relationship between the negotiations and the outcome as it affected the Danish policemen—for whom it most certainly was an outcome they were probably grateful for. In any case, my primary reason for making the change was the what was previously there (I believe, but don’t recall anymore, that it was “due to”) was inappropriate.
2. I shortened “The negotiations between the Danish civil service and the German occupation forces” to “The same negotiations” for conciseness; I don’t know about Danish writing conventions, but in English repetition of something as long as “negotiations between ... occupation forces” is tautologous and considered undesirable. Since at that point in the article it should already be clear to the reader what negotiations the “same negotiations” are, I believe the shorter form is justified from several perspectives. Those of style aside, the circumstances of the negotiations are, at that point in the narrative, irrelevant; further, I do not believe that repetition of such a long phrase will convey the ambiguity of the negotiations’ moral status—it only makes the sentence longer and that much harder to unwieldy.
3. I don't understand the justification for change 3, since essentially both versions mean the same thing, though mine—through the use of the semi-colon—makes it clearer that despite the better treatment accorded the policemen, camp conditions were still so bad that 62 of them didn’t survive. As a matter of fact, I think I will rework the phrase this way, as it will better highlight the poorness of the conditions.
4. On the causes of death: Is your discussion here focused solely on the causes among the Danish policemen? If it is, this will need to be clarified somehow; further, other editors might feel that the discussion is departing a bit from the narrower subject of this article, which is Buchenwald in general, not the plight of the Danish policemen—especially since their ordeal is also covered in detail in another article specifically about them. Therefore, if your intent with the “causes of death” subsection is to mention only the causes of death among the Danish policemen, that will have to be made less ambiguous: As it stands, it looks like a general statement about causes of death among all populations in the camp.
   Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 13:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jim Thanks for your improvements. The bit about "Causes of death in Buchenwald" is intended to describe causes in general. To avoid confusion I made a joint heading so the table of contents now look like "1 History 2 Deathtoll in Buchenwald 2.1 Causes of death in Buchenwald 2.2 Number of deaths in Buchenwald etc". Kind regards Anette B 17:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Anette (and anyone else interested):
I’ve attempted a complete re-edit of the whole article, though time constraints don’t allow me to track down all of the cited sources (I did track done some and found them wanting, though I left the material they appeared with because it was tenable upon cross-checking with the German article). Where I moved material, I did so to give the whole article a better flow and to keep like content together rather than have tidbits of similar content appear redundantly in different places. I hope my work has done yours justice; if not, please let me know and I will try to make further improvements. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 06:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jim again. I think you have put some needed structure to the article. If anything I would argue, that the article could be shortened even further. Concerning causes of death.. since hunger and decease was the most prevalent causes, I would argue, that these causes should be mentioned first. Thanks for taking the time. Best regards Anette B 21:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Database/Archive of CC-Personnel

Is there any public database with records about the nazi personnel of Buchenwald? Im am especially interested in "Wehrmacht" soldiers. Thanks for any hints. -- 87.79.192.159 10:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"Living Monument"

"Inside the camp, there is a living monument in the place of the first monument that is kept at skin temperature year round."

What is a "living monument?" A Google search furnished no information.

Contemporary color film

I don't know how significant this is, but there exists a 1942 or 1943 16mm amateur silent color film shot inside Buchenwald camp on either Kodachrome or Agfachrome (given the lack of color "pulsing", I'd opt for Kodachrome) by the baker that supplied the guards with bread. You see the guards eating inside their own house, and you see them walking around on the Appelplatz, both in their black uniforms, and in the latter shot you can see the Jedem das seine gate sign reversed in the backgound because it's seen from inside the camp. --Tlatosmd 15:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Cremation

My grandfather was in the U.S. Third Army when it was liberated and he said that he had to open the cremation ovens there, is there any information specifically about the crematory? 71.89.6.90 05:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Structure and Addendum

May I suggest the article being more structured into the three phases of the camp:

+ concentration camp + (slow) change extermination camp + soviet internation camp

Also we do not learn of the "outcome" of the evacuation marches. That is a particularl pity as those were incredibly gruelsome with an extreme toll of lives.

The addendum would in my oppinion benefit from sepereating the inmates of the nazi camp from those of the soviet camp. They may all be associated with the Buchenwald camp site but not the same camp as such. I would like to understand who was a victim of which system. An additional mention of quite a lot of people being improsened and abused by both totalitarian systems at Buchenwald an serving both the KZ and the soviet camp there would be welcome in the main text. This distressing fate applied to an unfortunately high number of persons, many survivors of the concentation camp finally succumbing to their torment in the soviet camp.

Can anyone make more of these ideas? Regards,194.246.46.15 (talk) 10:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Obama's Uncle:

Charles W. Payne, born 1924, enlisted 10 Nov '42, Navy. he was not in the Army. http://www.kshs.org/genealogists/military/wwiiveteransresults.php?page=421&branch=N

Reference number 10 is messed up and needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.85.33 (talk) 19:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Last surviving member of the original 4 liberators died

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/14/buchenwald.liberator/index.html 12.206.23.147 (talk) 23:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

POW deaths?

Is there a reference or link for POW deaths? Recently there have been a few US news articles about their deaths and how it wasn't publicized. Berga an der Elster is listed as one place; is this a sub camp of Buchenwald? Here is one reference: http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/11/20/worldwar.two.folo/index.html --MartinezMD (talk) 21:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me be more specific. I read in about the airmen prisoners in the article, but the recent news stories are saying "soldiers" maybe implying ground troops. That is what I am curious about. --MartinezMD (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

76th infantry took part in the liberation?

If I am not mistaken, I believe units of the 76th infantry division was also involved in the Liberation

Can anyone please refute or verify? Cosand (talk) 18:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

POW date of arrival

For what it's worth, the date of arrival of at least some of the POW airmen has to be August 1944 rather than April. This I know because one of them was an acquaintance who died recently. Flight Sgt EK (Peter) Phelps of 207 Sqn, Royal Air Force, was shot down in a raid on the V1 facility at St Leu d'Esserent on 8 July 1944, and after he was betrayed to the Gestapo in Paris he was transferred first to Buchenwald, then to Stalag Luft III. --Fraggle11 (talk) 20:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Why doesn't the word 'Holocaust' appear in the text of the article?

Seems like a big omission. Txh190 (talk) 17:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)Txh190

Holocaust template

it is a big omission but partly covered by the holocaust template { { The Holocaust } } at the top of the article --diremarc (talk) 05:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)