Talk:Modu Chanyu

The name Dulo appeared more than half millenium after Modu, so I changed dynasty name to Modu dynasty.78.191.73.74 (talk) 02:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Modu Shanyu should be removed from Project Turkey as the Xiongnu have nothing to do with Turks. They are a group of steppe people who appeared much earlier in history before the Gokturks, Mongols (Khitans, Jurchens, etc.) and Manchus. I removed the word Khan from the text as Xiongnu did not have khans, and this word is not mentioned in any Chinese sources that I have read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.20.120.78 (talk) 19:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

no it cannot be because only turks doing research about mete han's origin and mete han is believed (and supported by many remarkable historians) to be the ancestor of the turks,and even in offical logo of turkish army you ll see the remark 'since B.C 209'[[1]] which implies mete han's first military system..

to advice you should find and read the legend of oguz khan who is legendary father of the oghuz turks and thought to be Modu Chanyu or mete han.. the smilarities between two is remarkable and the legend is translated from chinese sources.. turkish claim is not a extremist bullcrap, historians work hard to reveal his real identity and soon it will be revealed. nothing is clear right now so it isnt the right time to state certain information, we shall also see..

if you read Mao-tun in turkic its nothing but Mete-han...

you cant simply say that 'turkey has nothing to do with xiongnu' since you havent got a valuable source

Chanyu is preferable to Shanyu

I will go through the article and change the title 'Shanyu' to 'Chanyu' throughout (except in quotes). The reason is that the Guangyun, a dictionary compiled in 601 CE by Lu Fayan, and completed during the Song dynasty, gives three readings for the first character of this title [i.e. Chanyu]: dan, chan, and shan. The form chan is specifically mentioned as being used in the Xiongnu title Chanyu. The reading shan is used as a place or family name; the reading dan means 'single' or 'alone.' Also see, for example: "Early Chinese Settlement Policies towards the Nomads." Pan Yihong. Asia Major, 3rd series, Vol. V, Part 2, (1992), p. 42, n. 2; Lexicon of Reconstructed Pronunciation in Early Middle Chinese, Late Middle Chinese and Early Mandarin, p. 48. (1991). Edwin G. Pulleyblank. UBC Press. Vancouver; Indo-Scythian Studies being Khotanese Texts Volume VII, p. 32. H. W. Bailey. Cambridge University Press. John Hill (talk) 06:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

More changes to this article

I am planning to go through this article and make a number of changes so I thought I should first explain the reasons I am doing so, and the broad outline of what I am attempting to do. 1. First a lot of speculation has crept into the article. The only historical evidence we have about this great early leader of the Xiongnu people is from the Chinese sources - anything else is speculation (and there are a number of mutually contradictory points of view - with little agreement between scholars). So, as this is meant to be a general encyclopedia article (not containing original research) I believe we should stick closely to the accounts given in the Chinese histories and anything more should be clearly identified as speculation. The same may be said regarding the relationships and language(s) of the Xiongnu people(s).

2. Claims and identifications have been made without proper references being made. Unless there is a good reason for keeping them, or unless I can find good references to back them up, I shall delete them.

3. I will use the Pinyin system of romanisation throughout, as this is now the most common and widespread system of romanising Chinese.

4. The article is badly in need of proper referencing and I will try to begin this task, starting with references to (translations of) the original Chinese texts, which are our only known sources of information about Modu.

I hope readers will take my edits for what they are, sincere attempts to improve this article, and that I don't upset too many people in the process - but, if you disagree with any of my edits - please let me know on this page and we can discuss the pros and con (I am always open to criticism as I am, like everyone else, prone to making mistakes). Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Mete, Batur, Bahadır

User 62.248.42.19 from Bursa in Turkey has again inserted these "names" for Modu. The fact is these are, I believe, later suggested possible reconstructions of Modu's name. As far as I know, they do not occur in any early documents or historical sources. Christopher I. Beckwith, in his recent book Empires of the Silk Road, p. 387, n. 8, discusses the possible origins of Modu's name: "It has not been identified, but as some have suggested, the Old Chinese pronunciation appears to represent a foreign *baγtur. a relative of the later-attested Central Eurasian culture word baγatur 'hero'. The etymology of the word is unknown, though the first syllable is very likely the Iranian word *baγ 'god, lord', an element in many later Central Eurasian titles."

I will, therefore, add a note on this possibility to the article, but I have no idea where "Mete" comes from. If User 62.248.42.19 still wishes to have this name included in the article for Modu, would s/he please give their reasons and valid references before inserting it again - I would be happy to discuss this further here. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

its not modu,its mete khan.