Talk:Russians: Difference between revisions
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This article is about ethnic Russians, not about Russian speaking people. There's more than a million people in Israel who speak Russian as a native language (those who immigrated from the former Soviet Union in the last 20 years), but most of them belong to the [[Jewish people]], not to the [[Russian people]]. In Israel they are refferred as "Russians" in the daily speech, but only a minority of them are ethnic Russians. Btw, a large percentage of the Russian speaking Israelis are not even from [[Russia]], but from Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc, so not even they are not ethnic Russian, they even never were Russian citizens. The number 1,100,000 is not correct, and the "[http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0197/analit04.php source]" doesn't even mention Israel, it's a page about demographic statistic in '''Kyrgyzstan'''!!! And don't start saying stuff like "the Russian speaking Jews are Russians with a different religion", cause by that "logic" [[Jewish people]] doesn't exist at all. [[Special:Contributions/77.127.239.165|77.127.239.165]] ([[User talk:77.127.239.165|talk]]) 12:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC) |
This article is about ethnic Russians, not about Russian speaking people. There's more than a million people in Israel who speak Russian as a native language (those who immigrated from the former Soviet Union in the last 20 years), but most of them belong to the [[Jewish people]], not to the [[Russian people]]. In Israel they are refferred as "Russians" in the daily speech, but only a minority of them are ethnic Russians. Btw, a large percentage of the Russian speaking Israelis are not even from [[Russia]], but from Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc, so not even they are not ethnic Russian, they even never were Russian citizens. The number 1,100,000 is not correct, and the "[http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0197/analit04.php source]" doesn't even mention Israel, it's a page about demographic statistic in '''Kyrgyzstan'''!!! And don't start saying stuff like "the Russian speaking Jews are Russians with a different religion", cause by that "logic" [[Jewish people]] doesn't exist at all. [[Special:Contributions/77.127.239.165|77.127.239.165]] ([[User talk:77.127.239.165|talk]]) 12:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC) |
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== Zelenin's theory == |
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How can a link to a wiki article about a liitle known Russian ethnographer can be considered a valid reference to proove a very contraversial theory about "southern and northern Russians being more different than Russians and Belorussians" ? This is nonesense. |
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Scythian origin of most of Russians
I do not know why whenever there is an article on russia or russians, you can feel that they simply stress on this shit slavic roots of all ethnic russians, this is totally false, they begin the history of russians ( Human beings living on the territory of european russia) from somewhere after 500AD as if before 500AD only rats and pigs were inhabiting the european russia and there were no human beings living around european russia, whereas it is fact like the existence of sun that territory of european russia was the land of scythians (sakas) as late as 100AD, and there are countless remains of indo-iranians within the territory of southern Russia and around the urals mountains, and there were finno-ugric people living in north of european russia, what do you think all these sakas, indo-iranians, finno-ugric populations burried themselves alive under the ground of european russia at the time of the arrival of the fucking Slavs. Why it is all the time the fucking Slavic identity that all the european russians are given. If all european russians are slavic then why do they have weird surnames that are most likely scythian, indo-iranian or finno-ugric origin. Why russians can be identified from all other fucking people calling themselves slavs like chezks, slovaks or slovenián, why russians faces and body structures are different from the aforementioned fucking people that are the core of slavs. My question is why russians deny to accept that they are racially a mix of scythian, indo-iranic, finno-ugric and off-course latter arriving fucking Slavs who gave them their present language. Why russians are ashamed of their ancient scythian, indo-iranic, finno-ugric roots, why does there racial history begins with the arrival of fucking bastard Slavs.
- I agree with you, it's rather politics to call Russians fully Slavic same any other nation called Slavic. But it's important to know what is the time of interaction of Iranians and Russians? Russians firstly populated these South East European Russia in 16-17 century, moreover mostly Turkic peoples leaved there at that time. But interconnection of Slavs and Scythians is known in case of Polians, that why possibly all East Slavs but exactly Ukrainians is the result of it. The level of Russians attitude to it is at least indefinite. --Riwnodennyk ✉ 20:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- how much hate. what's wrong with you, kid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.113.149.177 (talk) 02:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the Slavs mixed with native folks everywhere, from Balkans to Northern Russia. It is very difficult, where their "core" is, because the actual date and region of Slavic origin are still under the big question; at least, such general ethnonym is known only from VI a.c (the language group itself should be older, but we cannot surely distinguish its informants among the multiple East European tribes). After all, you must understand, that the nation is the phenomenon of consciousness in the first place, not genes or even language. Southern Russians are genetically (and even linguistically) much closer to Ukrainians than the Northern Russians, but nevertheless they surely consider themselves as Russians. As for history - as it was mentioned, there are 3 basic components in the Russian genotype: exactly Eastern Slavic (whatever it was by VI century), Baltic and Finno-Ugric ones. I must remind, however, that Finno-Ugres of Europe also haven't any general genotype, and we must admit the serious anthropological (and therefore genetical) difference between Finno-Ugres of Central European Russia (Merya, Muroma, Meshchyora, Mordovian folks) anf of Northern Russia (Karelians, Komi, Veps). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.37.211.55 (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Russians and Slavs in the Levant
In the section regarding Russians outside of Russia, I would like to bring up an interesting topic which has been long forgotten, except among a few circles of historians.
(But first, i would like to mention and interesting tidbit: In modern times there are indeed many Russian Jews now residing in Israel. But there is a significant population of Russians residing in Syria, particularly near the hydroelectric dam of Lake Assad along the Euphrates River. During the Soviet era many engineers and scientists were sent to Syria to build the dam, and even after its completion, and after the fall of the USSR, many Russians decided to continue living in Syria.)
It turns out there is a small percentage of families in the Middle East (particularly Syria/Lebanon/Palestine) when tested for genetic origins, are actually East Slav in origin -- haplogroup R1a1 --, not Arab nor other Semitic origin. (There is also yet another group of families that test northwestern European -- haplogroup R1b -- suggesting descent from Crusaders.) Apparently during the Mongol invasions of the 13th century tens of thousands of Slav boys from the Ukraine and the Russian steppe were kidnapped and sold into slavery in the Crimea, where Genoese merchants sold them to Arab buyers. From there these boys were shipped to Cairo and Damascus where they were turned into mamluks. (Mamluks from later centuries came from regions in the Caucasus Mts., but the early mamluks were mainly Slavs, Kipchak Turks, and Circassians.) Initially mamluk men only married daughters of other mamluks, and spoke their native tongues, as they were resistant to speaking Arabic and marrying outside of their race, but with time many of their descendants married into the local population. There is a small mountain town in the Galilee called Safed which was primarily settled by mamluks after the fall of the Templar Knights, and that group remained fairly homogenous well into the 20th century. This is evidenced not only by genetic testing but also by their phenotypical appearance... most of them look "Slavic" (very tall, with fair features). Also some vocabulary words used by older generations are not Arabic, but rather Kipchak, which was a major language of the steppe, even among Slavic people.
If such a "diaspora" as this one occurred in modern times, this would have made headlines as a major human rights violation in human trafficking. Imagine the scores of these East Slav boys that were sold into this "elite" slavery and yearning to return to their families left behind in the steppe.
Tanneen (talk) 12:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)Tanneen
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Slopiness revert
I have reverted some sloppy edits made by another user, in which another user had to add two fact tags each for Jews and Muslims. I think I know what he tried to do, but he made the page look disheveled. Marcus2 (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't seem to understand your position, have a look at Koreans, no Jews or Muslims there, though by simple probability you are bound to find a Jew and a Muslim of Korean ethnicity. So what makes Russians unique to this selection? There is no region in Russia which has a Russian-Muslim/Jewish concentration, unlike that of Bulgaria for example. There are no known diasporas of ethnic Russians that adhere to Islam or Judaism. Again, I am focusing only on ethnic Russians, not for example on many Jews that were born in Russia, or lots of Muslim groups, that nominally consider themselves Russian but neither are of Slavic origin. Of course that does not mean there are no ethnic Russians that changed their religion for the purpose of marriage or lifestyle, yet individual cases, referenced by google searches violate the WP:RS and in particular that wikipedia should be written from secondary sources, so individual examples in the media are as useful as toilet paper in a public lavatory. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 15:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
- Marcus2, that user was me. You're making unsubstantiated statements, that is why I put a fact template for it. Next time please follow the Wiki rules and do not delete [citation needed] unless you provide a reliable source. Taamu (talk) 08:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Russian peoples contribution in victory over the nazis?
I find this piece of the article very controversial: "Russian people had a large part in the victory over Nazi Germany at World War II". The author paints a picture of galant and brave russians who fought against Nazis but doesn't mention russian involvement in building the strenght of 3rd reich. Thanks to russians Hitler built and trained - inside of soviet union - his armies. Look at Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact also. It was russians and germans who invaded Poland in 1939. And though red army liberated nazi concentration camps, they had nothing againts the idea of building them in the first place. Anyway why would they? They had their own Gulags that devoured millions also. If the author writes about their bravoury he should also mention their on going history of atrocities and abuses towards bordering nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.141.88 (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
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The Soviet Union contributed to 80% of the German's casualties and there are links to prove it. If you have some sort of personal vendetta against Russians please don't bring on wikipedia.--Krotx (talk) 05:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
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So I added a POV tag as my edits are reverted by a suspected sockuppet. For why the section Notable achievements is inapprorpirate see above, and also the old disucssion at Talk:Russians/Archive_2#The_section_.22Contribution_to_humanity.22_and_the_section_.22Culture.22_is_disputed, a discussion that ended inconclusively, despite the counterfactual claim that a consensus has been reached. Also note that inappropriate canvassing is going on by God of Sins. Novidmarana (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
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I have entered the article and in the History saw the reverts done by Novidmarna, saying the revert she did was "per talk". The funny thing is what she did was against what was said by mose people in the Talk. Bakharev said deleting WW2 from the Russians is like deleting the holocaust from the Jews. He is right Ostap also said that the version including WW2 is better and simply needs more referencing. Novidmarana, you can't change the article when there is no agreement. If you stated what you oppose to on the talk page to doesn't alow you that becuase there are many people deciding not just you. I'm sexy, I'm hot, I'm everything your not (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
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Culture
...Russian art is very important..., Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, and Tola Brennan. What is this "Tola Brennan" link to "The National (Band)" ???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.162.54 (talk) 03:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
This article needs editing
And where are the Viking origins of the Russians? Where is the term Rus explained? What where the earlier tribes like? Migdejong (talk) 14:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
WHAT ABOUT JEWISH RUSSIANS?!!!!
There are plenty of Jews in Russia. Sure, some of them are Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Moldovans Turkics, Tartars, and Mongols, (Khazars), (a lot, in fact), but there is a large amount of Jews in Russia who are ethnic Russians. In fact, my family is Jewish Russians. I am offended that it does not mention the fact that some Russians are Jewish. Yes, about half are Americans of Russian descent, like me, but we are still Russian, no? I am putting Jewish Russians in the "Religion" Category.--67.80.57.142 (talk) 03:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)GooglePedia12
- Those are not ethnic Russians, they are not slavic but semitic, they are not ethnic Russians/ And if those are ethnic Russians who converted to Judism... there number is to small to mention, more convertet to Hinduism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.155.52 (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- Right, that's why Jewish Russians all have olive skin.--C+C (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- There were discussions on it: [2], [3]. Only few of thosr jew who are in Russia are actualy ethnic Russians who converted to Judaism, to few to mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.155.52 (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- "...Jewish Russians all have olive skin." Bullshit! Where did you get that silly notion?? Why do you think there are people in Jewish cemeteries with uniquely Russian names? Supposedly because there were Russian rabbis and Jewish missionaries seeking converts in Russia long ago. The numbers of ethnic-Russian Jews seem larger than you think. Marcus2 (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- 1. That's your POV.
- 2. Changing a name (like was did according to laws and rules) doesn't mean change of ethnicity.
- 3. DNA researches showd that thanks to being closed until the last centuries in it's communities, the Jews kept an homogenic DNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.124.43 (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
- Really? If there was a law saying that one must change his/her name, there could have been violent revolts and a possible overthrow of the government! Where's your proof? I'm dying to know. Marcus2 (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- And where is your? Your POV on look? There were talks on it, you have no right to come in put in your POV while a big majority decided otherwise, and not for the first time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.144.188 (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Marcus, are you serious? "If there was a law saying that one must change his/her name, there could have been violent revolts and a possible overthrow of the government"? Marcus, there were so many antisemitic cases in hostory in pogroms, when exaclly did the Jews make a revolt and overthrow the goverment? Do you have any idea how few Jews there are and there was in those countries? If you would have any idea in Jewish history, you would know Catherine II made a law Jews must change theur surnames to German once (a law from August 28, 1787. The law became active in Janurary 1789). You would also know that even earlier the Polish king made a law Jews nust change their surnames to Polish once. In both cases there was no resistance. And here's an article with more information: [4]. We Jews are a seperate ethnic group, live with that and stop being so self hating trying to show we are not. 132.66.180.154 (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Really? If there was a law saying that one must change his/her name, there could have been violent revolts and a possible overthrow of the government! Where's your proof? I'm dying to know. Marcus2 (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- Right, that's why Jewish Russians all have olive skin.--C+C (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I've never heard about anything like that. The closest you will come to an ethnic Russian who is Jewish is a person from the CIS who made Aliyah to Israel but has an Jewish Father, and henceforth isn't a Jew by rabbinical law and some of them convert to make things easier for themselves. I'm sorry but unless you bring reliable proof for your claims this is a load of bs, personal "research" has no place on Wikipedia and frankly this is freaking ridiculous. --Krotx (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Agree 100%! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.233.95 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
In this context Subbotniks (Russians who converted to Judaism) may be mentioned. Olegwiki (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- No they can't. They are to few to be mentioned. There are more pagan Russians then subbotniks and converts to Judaism together (here comes's another case, that the Subbotniks only take some elements from Judaism, but they still belive in Jesus and stuff so they are nor Jews). 79.179.135.9 (talk) 14:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Almost all the Jews in Russia are Ashkenazi Jews, this is another ethnic group, it has nothing to do with the ethnic Russians, they have different origin, different history, different surnames, different traditional language (Yiddish), different fisical appearence etc. Is this so difficult to understand? 77.127.239.165 (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Translation into Chinese Wikipedia
The version 12:16, 25 March 2009 Spitfire of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Wing (talk) 20:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Russians in Israel
This article is about ethnic Russians, not about Russian speaking people. There's more than a million people in Israel who speak Russian as a native language (those who immigrated from the former Soviet Union in the last 20 years), but most of them belong to the Jewish people, not to the Russian people. In Israel they are refferred as "Russians" in the daily speech, but only a minority of them are ethnic Russians. Btw, a large percentage of the Russian speaking Israelis are not even from Russia, but from Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc, so not even they are not ethnic Russian, they even never were Russian citizens. The number 1,100,000 is not correct, and the "source" doesn't even mention Israel, it's a page about demographic statistic in Kyrgyzstan!!! And don't start saying stuff like "the Russian speaking Jews are Russians with a different religion", cause by that "logic" Jewish people doesn't exist at all. 77.127.239.165 (talk) 12:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Zelenin's theory
How can a link to a wiki article about a liitle known Russian ethnographer can be considered a valid reference to proove a very contraversial theory about "southern and northern Russians being more different than Russians and Belorussians" ? This is nonesense.
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