Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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New Years Resolution: 150 DYKs

As of the 2nd of October WP:PW managed to get one of their New Years Resolutions come true as they hit 150 successful "Did you know" nominations. Considering the original number was 100 it's pretty cool. Well done. Does anyone have a fresh number of the percentage of stubs or any of the other resolutions??  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  14:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'd like to say congratulations to everybody who got a DYK, but especially to MPJ-DK and GaryColemanFan, who, by my reckoning, between them accounted for about 2/3 of that total. The most recent stub article percentage is 12.08% from September 27 (I update it every 2 weeks to get a fresh number for the newsletter), but it has been as low as 11.96%. We currently have 6 Good topics, with another 2 nominated, so we're doing pretty good there too. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 15:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Congratz. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 16:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

12,08% is not bad - Just over 520 or so stubs. Hopefully I can reduce the Lucha stubs, I'm working on eliminating ALL lucha stubs but that's quite a job for just one guy.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  17:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Crap, I forgot about my 55 TNA GA PPVs resolution. Looks like I better get started if I want to accomplish that. Though there is a brightside, looking at the list, the 100 and 150 DYKs were by me so I guess things happen for a reason. Good job everyone. 152 DYKs and 4 more Good Topics.--WillC 22:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Considering there are only about 60 TNA PPVs in total (if my count is right) 55 is a pretty ambitious number.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  18:22, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

BFG 09 is number 60, but by the end of the year there should be 62. I have made a list of TNA monthly events, to keep track and maybe one day expand and create. I was aiming high when I made that resolution, back before I started working in different TNA areas. If I had stayed on the subject of PPVs, then looking by the current number of GAs and FLs I've gotten this year, I would have 23 done.--WillC 18:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Ambition is a good thing, just like it's my ambition to get the remaining 49 Lucha related stubs eliminated - I may not get there any time soon but it's good to have a goal ;)  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  02:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. The idea of two TNA championship topics and a multiple TNA PPV topics have kept me going. Well good luck with that. Anyone who works as hard as you do on a non-WWE topic has my respect. There are few who work on the unrelated WWE articles, or the old WWE articles. Most are about the current WWE stuff. I see all articles level in importance. I'm just glad somebody is working on the other stuff.--WillC 19:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

How much time Should we Wait to create Pay Per View Articles.

I have noticed that on a few of the PPV talk pages there have been some questions as to when we should create the pages for the upcoming PPV. And from what i understand the common time to do that is set at about two months before the PPV. Its not my plan to start a big change over how we do things but for everyone to discuss this as some of us and i wont say any names are beginning to fight with one another over this so lets discuss this like adults And come to a common ground on this.--Dcheagle (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

If there is enough valid, sourced information, there is no valid reason to delete an article should someone create it, no matter when it was made. Wwehurricane1 (talk) 02:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Im with you on that its just some user believe that even when we have that we should still wait hence this discussion. --Dcheagle (talk) 03:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The question is what is "enough" information. Just the date and location is not enough IMO (and that is what some users think is enough to warrant a article). TJ Spyke 03:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Judging by this article: Survivor Series (2009), date and location IS enough. The rest of the information is the same copy and past info used for every show. Wwehurricane1 (talk) 03:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

As soon as it's mentioned by a third neutral source (such as a non-wrestling news source) is good enough for me! ...like that time various news organizations announced that WrestleMania XXVI would be in Glendale three days before WWE made the official announcement... ...and TJ still didn't think it was good enough... [1] [2] ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 03:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well we have Articles on Wikipedia all the way to the year 2100s, so I don't see why we can't make PPVs based on just the date as long as they are confirmed to be happening. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 03:47, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The promotion has announced it and we have third party sources. That is all that is needed. We can start a production section, a decent lead, etc with just that info. The date, the location, etc can make up three paragrpahs on its own. We really should have production sections for all events and not just the main ones.--WillC 04:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

If we have the information then why should we wait to start the page if the information is reliable then whats stopping us.--Dcheagle (talk) 04:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see the point of having a load of articles set up way in advance. WP:MERGE says

• Text – If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic.

So say for instance WWE or TNA announce their 2010 calendar of events this very week. You would have an article for an event in December 2010 there that would potentially remain dormant for over a year as a stub with only a date and possibly a venue given. My only exception to any merger would be if there is enough production information for that particular event (which is why I would certainly not ask for WrestleMania XXVI to be merged). --  Θakster   07:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of WrestleMania XXVI ...real quickly.... ahem... WWE has started airing ads promoting the event (ticket sales) in some local markets. I should also note that "Welcome to the World" by Kevin Rudolf is being used on these new ads. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

What'd I Say?^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 01:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Another one hits the dust ... kinda?

It's goodbye WWE No Way Out and hello WWE Elimination Chamber, bah. Anyway, unlike the previous renamings by poll, this actually had No Way Out as an option. So I was wondering if it would be an idea to move the article right now to its new place, seeing as the WWE.com side calendar is the only source of its existence, or to wait? --  Θakster   07:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

F**K! And people wonder why I like TNA, with WWE screwing with us all the time. Hell, Chamber of Conflict was better than that name title. WWE Now Way Out was perfectly fine you f'n idiots. I would say keep it as is. This may be a one time only name change. We can create the WWE Elimination Chamber PPV article because now we have enough info to justify a production section, etc.--WillC 08:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Soon in Extreme Rules fashion this will become Chamber of Elimination. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 11:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

We don't know if it's the same event, so no I don't think we should rename it. Not to mention that we don't know if it will be the final name or not. TJ Spyke 16:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

There is still hope, little but some. It's pretty likely it's the same event though, but I suppose we should wait for official confirmation. Tony2Times (talk) 16:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Use some common sense once in a while. The NWO name was in the poll, so it would be safe to say it was the same event.--WillC 16:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It's speculation and you know it. We don't know if it will share the history of NWO or not, so no such move should take place. TJ Spyke 16:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well at this current time, I think we should hold the right to assume that it's sharing No Way Out's History until we are told otherwise. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 16:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, but that doesn't mean we should re-name the article. TJ Spyke 16:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

A move can be discussed at a later date if applicable. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 17:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Curtis23

We might want to keep an eye on this chap, he's new, but he's already been involved in numerous incidents and has already been blocked in the past for edit warring [3], little to no surprise I would think to him edit warring with TJ on TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs [4], and also for some reason today decided to undo TJ's edit on the Miss WrestleMania [5] article, which I undid, I've already left comments on his talk page pertaining to the TLC and Miss WrestleMania edits, but I think he's someone who we should watch out for as he seems like a user looking to make trouble. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 21:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

• Well, starting a thread about him here won't do any good. If he's problematic, ask him to tone it down and discuss his actions before he makes them. If he continues, get an administrator involved. But hopefully he'll listen to your advice and calm down. A thread like this generally serves no purpose besides making the editor in question angrier and more aggressive. iMatthew ^talk at 21:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

He's also been edit warring on Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder among others (even lying and claiming an experienced user agreed with him, until that editor left a message on his talk page calling him out on it and saying not to do that again. I am not sure if he is trying to be constructive or not, but most of his edits have not been constructive. I sorta agree with iMatthew though. TJ Spyke 21:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

That edit would be located here.--WillC 23:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't WP:ANI have been a more appropriate place for this issue? ArcAngel (talk) 22:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

This is NOT a page to tattle on users that edit wrestling articles. Use ANI or contact an admin next time. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

This is true, though I consider a post like this to me more of a "help me keep on eye on him" than a "tattle post." Gavyn Sykes (talk) 00:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

And he may have just been asking what to do about it, I didn't know about ANI. Curtis added some strange thing to my talk page which tells me whenever someone has put a message on an article's talk page. Odd thing. Tony2Times (talk) 02:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You mean Template:Talk back? Lot of people use that for messages on user's talk page. He uses mainly for article talk pages.--WillC 02:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I was not using this page to "tattle" on users, I was using it to tell the project you might need to keep an eye on this editor as he could be more problematic in the future. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 09:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

My point was that this doesn't belong here. You could have approached him yourself. Having everyone watch him isn't the solution. If you don't think you can handle him on your own, get an administrator to help out. There's plenty of them around willing to lend a hand. But like I said, if he happens to see this thread, it may push him to be more disruptive. iMatthew ^talk at 16:13, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Can I get some opinions please?

As a brief overview, at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Professional_wrestling/Archive_71#Cite_Episode.3F it was discussed whether or not Template:Cite episode could be used to cite moves. Out of the discussion, I got people saying it shouldn't be used, nobody saying it should be used and a lot of off-topic discussion. Earlier today, I made this change to the style guide to reflect what I saw as being the consensus as not using Template:Cite episode. This was promptly reverted by an ip. As a result, I would like to get a firm consensus on this matter if you don't mind. I personally am opposed to the use of Template:Cite episode for the sourcing of moves, as commentators rarely if ever use the full technical move name, or call it wrong (let's be honest, we've all laughed at Mike Adamle for this), and this leads to a lot of speculation and original research on the part of editors. Other opinions? ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 14:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely. I reverted the IP's edit earlier. Maybe that was a bit premature though. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 14:12, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well the ip just promptly reverted you back Gavyn. I think this should be discussed here to get a firm consensus before it turns into yet another edit war... ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 14:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I am against cite episode both because of inaccurate calling and also because episodes are infrequently repeated, so checking them would be difficult. I'd be less averse to cite video for moves though obviously inaccuraracy is still a problem there. Tony2Times (talk) 14:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You don't establish "Signature" or Finishing move status by ONE episode, it's next to impossible to check and frankly would probably fail any GA/FA/FL review if it came to it.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  14:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

That IP seems to be a wrestling move addict, as they rarely edit anything else and are using cite episode as their crutch. I am in agreement that cite episode is the worst way to name or confirm names for a move. Of course if this is the agreed consensus then almost every edit by that one IP will be reverted. Cite episode is fine for results, or events that lead to PPV matches, but not moves. Darrenhusted (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello! First of all Darrenhusted you don't have to attack people personally.

Then about the cite episode template, if wikipedia allow people to use it why do you want to prevent people to use it? A classic arguement is : what a better source than the show itself. Professional wrestling is a show, and for most of them TV shows. Appearently, for the movelist, you want wikipidians to only use write source, but there isn't that much kind of source for wrestling (like said before its a show, not literature). Even sources like OWOW arn't that reliable about the subject, but if you see a guy performs a move you can't tell he didn't perform it. Alright, comentators didn't always name the moves correctly. But OWOW either, the differens is that with the cite episode source you have the possibility to discriminate that error 82.224.118.7 (talk) 15:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Seeing someone perform a move once, which is what the "cite episode" template is used to show, does not prove that he uses the move regularly or even enough to be considered noteworthy. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Then each move should have multiple sources when using that template. Jeangabin (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

First off to the ip, I'm not really seeing where Darren attacked you personally. Saying you're a "wrestling move addict" doesn't count as a personal attack in my opinion.

Secondly, if a move is used regularly (i.e. is a finisher or signature moves) then it should be mentioned on a reliable source. Sites like Figure 4 Online, PW Torch, and Slam! Wrestling all have weekly recaps of shows, so if a move is used regularly it should be mentioned on one of them. Thirdly, the problem with Template:Cite episode, as agreed by most editors here, it that it leads to original research on the part of editors over what the move is. Some moves look very similar to each other, and it could be hard to distinguish between them. The best way to solve this problem to have a reliable and verifiable source stating what the move actually is. In this case, the only really plauible way for that to happen is to produce a written source.

Fourthly, at Jeangabin, your comment is pretty much ignoring the fact that using Template:Cite episode requires the user to interpret the move themselves. This is the very defition of original research. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 16:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Darrenhusted is doing threaten on people about the 3RR. About the original research, the cite episode template is not an issue when unsing it for movies or television sitcoms. Why should it be one for wrestling? 82.224.118.7 (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not "doing threaten" on anyone. You reverted twice, in my edit summary and boilerplate warning I warned you about a third revert. I also did not attack you, but rather found shorthand to characterise your interest in the use of the cite episode for the purpose of naming moves. You seem to be (wilfully?) misunderstanding the use of cite episode templates. To report an event, yes. To interpret wrestling moves, no. Darrenhusted (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That wasn't a threat and it wasn't him "attack[ing] people personally" like you originally said. It was him reminding you of the WP:3RR policy, which he was quite right to do.

As I have explained before, the problem with Template:Cite episode for wrestling moves it that it leads to original research on the part of editors over what the move is. Some moves will look very similar to each other, and it could be hard to distinguish between them. What makes yhour interpretation of the move more correct than another editors? It is too subjective. The editor has to interpret the source to decide what the move is, and this is ORiginal research. The best way to solve this problem to have a reliable and verifiable source stating what the move actually is. In this case, the only really plausible way for that to happen is to produce a written source.

Template:Cite episode can be used in wrestling articles, but not have things like wrestling moves which can be subjective. It can be used to say that for example "Randy Orton had a match against John Cena", the source will verify that. It can't be used to say, for example, "Randy Orton performed a reverse mule kick/enzuiguir/insert random move here", as that is your interpration of the move the wrestler is performing. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 16:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." Where did you see that a description of a published fact with the corresponding source is an original research? example : if you see Barack Obama wearing a blue tie on TV and you write that his tie was blue that day with the cite episode template, this is what you call an original research? But if you wait until a random journalist write somewhere that his tie was blue, this isn't? 82.224.118.7 (talk) 17:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion : only someone that doesn't know the coulours' name could have write the wrong name. Same thing with wrestling : only someone that doesn't have the basic skills in wrestling to name the moves can name it wrong. You have to trust in wikipedians edits, it is one of wikipedia policies : this a collaborative encyclopedia project. You can't challenge everyones edits only because you doubt others intellectual abilities. 82.224.118.7 (talk) 17:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

But you are not seeing him wear a blue tie and saying that he wore a blue tie one day. You are seeing him wear a blue tie and saying that he frequently or always wears blue ties. GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

But what about the random journalist? So sites like Figure 4 Online, PW Torch, and Slam! Wrestling recaps of shows shouldn't be used as source as well... 82.224.118.7 (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Then, the only "reliable" source left here is the inaccurate OWOW 82.224.118.7 (talk) 18:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe the rule is that Wikpedia editors cannot interpret things, since it's OR. We CAN cite the research of others - in this case recap sites like the above listed. The threshold for inclusion on Wikpedia is verifiablity, not truth. Even if an above source gets a move wrong, it's irrelevant - those sources pass WP:V and WP:RS and thus will be used. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 23:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The OR seems to have been made to prevent that kind of dispute, where in most of them there is a "synthesis of published material that advances a position". Here is what you can read about that on Wikipedia:No original research : "Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C". There isn't any OR when citing a sport event. Here an example of the cite episode template in the case of a sport event. 82.224.118.7 (talk) 07:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Undent: You are missing the point. Move names come from approved sources, not TV episodes. TV episodes and PPVs can be use to cite match fixtures and results. Darrenhusted (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Undent: this is a postulate you've decided yourself but it isn't write anywhere 82.224.118.7 (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Consensus is pretty clear against using "cite episode" for move names, and the discussion is not going anywhere. I would support archiving the discussion at this point. GaryColemanFan (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't want to be sarcastic, but you can't achieve a discussion because you think its getting borring and say it is a consensus, it's indeed because it bother us that we're here to discuss. 82.224.118.7 (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Well I am not against using the cite episode template, and I think we can find a solution that satisfy everyone. Why not decide have multiple sources when using the cite episode? Jeangabin (talk) 19:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no middle ground. Commentators are prone to errors, and editors would be required to use OR, so the cite episode template is a poor substitute for reliable sources. One last time, fine for events and results, not for move names. I suggest 82.224.118.7 faces up to this fact and begins going through their edits and removing any uses of the cite episode for move names. Darrenhusted (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't list anything other than finishing moves. What relevance does the fact that Randy Orton uses a dropkick or a European uppercut have? So does a million other people. Chris Jericho uses a backhand chop. OMG, and an ARMBAR!! And did you guys know that John Cena uses a SPINEBUSTER?! All of these moves are listed on people's articles and none of them, in my opinion, are relevant to anything and should be taken off. This also solves the "cite episode" problem. :) Wwehurricane1 (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Darrenhusted where have you read that a postulate expressed by a random user is part of wikipedia policy? This is your own point of view, not a wikipedia general rule. Consult Wikipedia:Consensus. Here is what you can read on WP:OR : "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia". An original research is also explained to be that way : "Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C". About the "Commentators are prone to errors", here is what you can read on WP:V : "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". If it's the accessibility that bother you, here is what you can also read there : "Verifiability implies that any one can check the cited sources to verify the information stated in a Wikipedia article. This does not, however, mean that any one can do so instantaneously, without any cost or effort. For example, some on-line sources may require payment to view; and some print sources may only be accessible in specific university libraries. The ease of access does not affect the verifiability of the information taken from such sources". 82.224.118.7 (talk) 07:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

IP, Darren is right here. You can't use yourself as the source (which is what you are trying to do) as you are not a reliable source. The Cite Episode also should not be used to cite the move being a regular move for a wrestler since all it is doing is citing that they used it in that match. You need a source that states it is a finishing move/regular move of that person. As it was pointed out earlier, you comment about Obama's tie shows this. You can cite that he word a blue tie for that appearence, but you could not use that source to state he usually wears blue ties. TJ Spyke 20:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Then would that not mean that every signature moves needs multiple sources from those at WP:PW/Style guide#Sources? Gavyn Sykes (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Only if you are using Cite Episode. There are plenty of reliable sources that list the move a wrestler usually does. If a reliable source says that John Cena frequently uses the Five-Knuckle Shuffle (which is not a finishing move), than just that is needed. TJ Spyke 21:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

But the sourced DON'T usually mention that they frequently use a given move, that's exactly my point. I have yet to see a PWTorch, WrestleView or 411Mania article that states something along the lines of "MVP used a facebreaker knee smash, something he does often." You may find something (but worded better) in a CANOE article, perhaps, but that's about it. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

So in summation, against using cite episode for naming moves, me, Nici, Gavyn Sykes, Tony2Times, MPJ-DK, GaryColemanFan, Wwehurricane1 and TJ Spkye (8) and for Jeangabin and the IP (2). Is 80% the consensus for this to be considered part of the style guide? If so then I would advise the IP to start removing cite episode templates from move names, unless they can replace the source with an RS. Darrenhusted (talk) 20:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Based on the identical editing patterns of the IP and Jeangabin, I'm not even convinced that it is two different people. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I've started a sockpuppet investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jeangabin. -- Atama頭 00:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

GaryColemanFan, Atama, what are you playing at?? 82.224.118.7 (talk) 07:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I had suspected the same thing myself given that they both add moves using the cite episode, but AGF. But in the SPI the IP admits that Jeangabin is their brother, so more a case of meat puppets than socks. Darrenhusted (talk) 09:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

And on Wikipedia, Meat puppets and sock puppets are treated the same (both result in a block). TJ Spyke 15:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning Nici. It shouldn't be that way, and the only way that moves should be sourced is through reliable sources. The only exception is cite video for when its a DVD, lets say a biography of a wrestler and the mention their best move (i.e The Rock and his Rock Bottom, People's Elbow, Spinebuster, etc.).--Truco ₅₀₃ 03:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

5 stars match

Hi. I have seen that Dave Meltzer, from WON, has given five stars to a lot of wrestling matches. But you only put the 5 stars to matches that Meltzer sais that are 5 stars. Where are the 5 stars matches of others wrestling writers, like Pro Wrestling Torch or CANOE Slam. For example, Undertaker vs HBK in Wrestlemania 25. Meltzer says that is a 4**** 3/4 match, but Wade Kellen from PWTorch says that is a ***** match and Dale Plummer, from CANOE Slam, says that is a 10 over 10 match. I don0t know if Meltzer have a special preference, but Plummer and Keller also give five stars to matches and we only put the Meltzer five stars matches.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Meltzer stars should be used either, they are nothin more than his personal opinion. That is why they are not supposed to be listed in the Championships and Accomphisments section (since it is neither, it is just his personal review of the match). TJ Spyke 20:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The 5 star rating is held at high regard in the wrestling community. Even ROH recognizes it as an accomplishment.--WillC 01:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Whoopee, an indy fed recognizes it. It's beside the point, still just 1 man's opinion. 02:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

One man's opinion held in high regard by many, including WCW. ROH isn't an indy fed anymore. Even if it was, still recognized. You can't change that. I don't care about Meltzer, but still notable.--WillC 13:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

ROH is still an indy fed. Anyways, as long as it doesn't get put in the CAA section, I don't care. TJ Spyke 15:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

In your bias opinion. But still it is an accomplishment.--WillC 16:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it's a rating from 1 person. It's not an "Accomplishment". A reviewer's rating is NOT an Award or an Accomplishment. That's why it was agreed that it doesn't belong in the CAA section. It was agreed to keep it out of the CAA section and just mention it in prose in the article. You may respect Meltzer's bias opinion, but that doesn't change the facts. TJ Spyke 19:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how his opinion can be bias. Where is this "agreement" or is this agreement just like all the others. There was no discussion, we are just going to say there was an agreement.--WillC 02:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

We have discussed this before (you and I), he has a bias against WWE and in general prefers Japanese wrestling. Anyways, here are a couple of occasions this have been discussed and each time the majority opinion was to remove the ratings: here and here. TJ Spyke 04:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You can't consider a discussion that never came to a full agreement on the action a consensus, so there has been no agreement. Just because he likes Japan wrestling, which actually care more about the performance art and not about being sports entertainment, does not mean he is bias. WWE haven't had many incredible matches in the last 12 years.--WillC 04:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I won't get into how boring most Japanese matches are (and the fact that Japanese crowds don't make much noise doesn't help). People discuss the situation and the majority agreed they don't need to be in (at least the CAA). It doesn't matter if 3 people or 300 people discuss it. No one stopped others from joining in. It's like an election, you can't complain when your side loses and say it was because of low voter turnout. Same thing with consensus, it's based on those that choose to get involved in the discussion. TJ Spyke 20:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You know, I've wondered about this subject a few times in the past. Not seriously mind you since I'd forgotten about it. But, I do find it odd that this one man's opinion seems to hold such sway over the wrestling world, supposedly anyway. If his opinion is held in such high regard, then why do you never hear anyone from TNA or WWE giving praise to the guy? I keep hearing about how these publications like the WON or PWI, or people like Dave Meltzer, are important and influential in wrestling, yet I've never really seen anyone provide any proof of it. Even so, I have to agree on the point that one man's opinion doesn't qualify as some sort of accomplishment in pro wrestling. If Roger Ebert gives a movie a four star review, it's never counted among any awards and honors a film might receive so far as I'm aware of.

Well most famously, Mick Foley's first book cites Meltzer's opinion not only as being valuable but causing bookers to change their direction. However, while it's important enough to be in prose, especially for matches outside of Japan where it's less common, I don't think it's worth putting in the C&A section. It's just a rating, not an award. I know it's a bit facetious to say, but if you put in a 5 star rating there's an argument to be made that all ratings should go in there. Tony2Times (talk) 22:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, how about instead of being in the C&A section, they are just mentioned in the prose of a person's bio? Like with Styles': "On September 11, 2005 at TNA's Unbreakable PPV event, Styles defeated Christopher Daniels and Samoa Joe in a three way match to regain the TNA X Division Championship. This match was later given a 5 star rating, the highest a match can be given, by the man who created the star rating system Dave Meltzer."--WillC 04:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the sycophantic ending, that's pretty much how I'd expect it to be as it is worth noting, it's just not a C&A. No-one rated things by five stars before Meltzer? Tony2Times (talk) 11:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, we shouldn't give Meltzer credit for using a rating system that was around long before him. Will, that is the compromise that has been in place for awhile, although the wording (at least that i've used when doing this) is more like "This match was later given a 5-star rating by Dave Meltzer's Wrestling Observer Newsletter". It avoids the unsourced claim that he invented it, and avoids bias (who says his 5-star rating is the highest honor a match could get? I would say getting a "Match of the Year" award is a bigger honor than a rating from critic.) TJ Spyke 15:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I've got no problem with mentioning it in a wrestler's bio. Ultimately, it's just his personal opinion on the quality of a match and a wrestling C&A should be a little more than that.Odin's Beard (talk) 15:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of nicknames of pro wrestlers

Hey fellow WP:PW members. Your valued input is needed in this AFD, if you please. ArcAngel (talk) 20:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

War Games to possibly replace Judment Day (aka ANOTHER WWE Poll)

Another survey was sent out to WWE Universe subscribers, this time concerning Judgment Day. The options for the name of the event are:

• Judgment Day
• Riot Control
• Multimania
• WWE War Games

Be on the look out and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD if you get this survey, vote for WAR GAMES!! Wwehurricane1 (talk) 21:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Telling people how to vote: NOT needed one bit. This talk page is for discussing articles, not encouraging people how to vote. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of what this talk page is for. The post was intended to keep people extra vigilant as I can see that people have already started trying to change the upcoming pay per view list. EVERYONE tends to add their own opinion to things from time to time as we are all wrestling fans here. Wwehurricane1 (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

As long as it doesn't turn into a forum, I don't mind a bit of banter like this if it keeps some good humour on the page in the midst of passionate debates and arguments. Tony2Times (talk) 22:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

That's what I was going for there, humor. I realize that this isn't a forum, but... did you SEE those choices! :) Wwehurricane1 (talk) 23:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not seeing this reported on any reliable site (other than the quasi-reliable WrestleView), nor have I personally gotten this e-mail. Assuming this is real, any except Multimania would be good. TJ Spyke 00:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

[6] Wwehurricane1 (talk) 01:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that mentions nothing about it (unless you are a subscriber, in which case it still can't be used since sources that require a fee to access are not allowed). TJ Spyke 02:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

That link DOES mention it and I wasn't posting that to be used as a source for anything other than you to see a reliable site reporting on it. Wwehurricane1 (talk) 02:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Well thank fuck they can do SOMETHING right... anyway, I'll look out for it. Jordan Payne ^T /_C 08:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

These PPV name changes are becoming a problem, sigh. Breaking Point (Unforgiven), Hell in A Cell (No Mercy), Bragging Rights (Cyber Sunday), TLC (Armageddon), Elimination Chamber (No Way Out), and now War Games (Judgment Day). Geez. That just brings hell to Wikipedia.--Truco ₅₀₃ 03:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is that a problem again? Mshake3 (talk) 04:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't get that either - it's a new event replacing the old... and??  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  13:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Because of IPs/newer editors changing PPV names in various articles before it's confirmed that one name is replacing another. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 18:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

and it's a major problem because SO many articles refer to the 2010 No Way Out PPV already. You guys probably spend more time talking about it than actually reverting it right now. All I'm saying is don't make a mountain out of a molehill.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  05:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder needs protection

It keeps getting vanadlized. For some reason someone finds it amusing to say Zack's Rough Ryder is called The Condom and that his theme is called "Soul Radio" and Hawkins uses a Lady GaGa song. This is of course all bull. 69.23.156.97 (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You want WP:RFPP, though it needs to be a large amount of vandalism (say 50 edits in 24hrs) for it to gain protection. If it is one IP then the IP needs to be warned, until they reach 3RR or a fourth warning, then they may be blocked. Darrenhusted (talk) 20:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's the IP of the most recent repeat offender. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/190.59.15.203 69.23.156.97 (talk) 01:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

ATTENTION: Sock puppetry case at Talk: ECW Championship

There is a Sock puppetry case on this section at Talk: ECW Championship^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 23:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the bigger problem is that Wikipedia editors continue to insist on engaging in original research and trying to decide what is and is not a "world title". GaryColemanFan (talk) 02:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean?^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 02:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the whole debate is yet another rehashing of the "Wikipedia editors should be able to create a definition of 'world title' and decide which titles fit the description" discussion. Any attempt by Wikipedia editors to do so violates Wikipedia's policy on original research. There is no need to interpret facts when the facts can just speak for themselves. Is it a "world title"? Is it a "supplementary title"? Maybe, but for our purposes, it is a "title". GaryColemanFan (talk) 03:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not a debate at all. The only ones interpreting facts are the socks I just uncovered... This was never a serious debate about world titles because that one puppetier was never serious. The puppetier's intent was always to get everyone else riled up knowing very well what was going on.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 03:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Why exactly was this brought up here? I would bet some of the regulars here have edited that page, but many others havent. I see no reason to drag uninvolved editors into this case. This whole discussion seems to be yet another tattling post just because people would rather use this than ANI or other proper places for it. Let the admins deal with it. Random editors of the project don't have the power to find out who is a sock of another user and so on. RobJ1981 (talk) 03:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Really? Do I need a sentence to explain to you why I brought this up here? Again with one of your little "this ain't a place to tattle" rants? You just decide to come here and do that thing of yours. Let me ask you this. Why exactly did you feel the need comment? Your only edit in two days... and this is it? Now why did I do it? Because it's informing the project about a relevant issue and a potential problem. Your turn. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If you know people personally involved with the problem: use their talk pages, not this one. Yes it's a problem, but it should be brought up to admins. Not random project members that most likely havent even encountered the socks at all. My editing has nothing to do with it. I have the right to post where I want, and how frequently I want. I shouldn't be hassled about it. Wikipedia is about volunteering, not attacking people because they don't edit all the time. RobJ1981 (talk) 04:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Well why don't you go volunteer somewhere else. The checkuser case has been filed and thus admin's will be involved. The obvious purpose of this section was to inform the project of the issue, requesting any input on it, a much better action than to go to multiple user talk pages - something some might view as canvassing. Now unless you have anything actually related to the subject to add...^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 04:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Considering this relevantly relates with an issue we seem to constantly be discussing, I would say it's a relevant subject to bring up in the talk page of this project. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 04:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Unquestionable Truth: don't tell me what to do. I can post where I want, and you have no right to tell me to volunteer elsewhere. You don't control this page or who posts on it. I know you would love to have that feature, but it's not going to happen. RobJ1981 (talk) 04:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

3bulletproof16 you mean. RobJ1981, Don't lecture me. Now read everthing you just typed and pretend I said it to you. :)^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 04:51, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

No, so get over yourself. RobJ1981 (talk) 05:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Back-at-cha^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 05:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you just drop the bickering, fact of the matter is it made complete sense to bring this to the projects attention, since I would assume this could somewhat mess with a consensus, Truth was Unquestionably (pardon the pun) right in bringing this to the projects attention. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 05:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the pun (you know you meant it) :) in other -apparently now irrelevant- news, the sock case is pending confirmation. Although I must say I made a pretty good case in the report. (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EdgarBacon) ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 05:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Not recognized by PWI, therefore not a world title. End of. Mark G Craig (talk) 05:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

'bout to be blocked for sock use. End of "it" ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 05:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

recognition by PWI doesn't matter one way or the other, the fact that it would be recognized by a notable magazine as being a World Title, would just be a plus and contribute to its notability of being a World Title. Afro ^{Talkie Talk - Afkatk} 06:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Nothing changes the fact that the ECW Championship is simply not a world title. Mark G Craig (talk) 06:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)