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Holocaust denial

I don't think the accusations against H deniers and only adding sources that confirm them complies with POV. --Vizcarra 21:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vizcarra, I am confused by your point -- you seem to be saying that Holocaust denial deserves equal time, is that correct? I also want to point out that you deleted info about the countries where Holocaust denial is illegal, quotes from peer-reviewed journals saying that Holocaust denial was motivated by hate groups and not taken seriously by historians, and you deleted a quote about the difference between denial and revisionism. Are there are reason these three points are bothering you?

Holocaust denial is a lie, really and truly, it is pseudoscience repudiated by basically every historian on the planet, it has been repeatedly found baseless in any court case where it has come up, the people pushing it have been found multiple times to have forged materials and distorted facts, it has been repeatedly linked with anti-Semitism and racism, and is in totally contradiction with mounds of evidence. Truth is not a POV. Claims by hate groups do not get equal weight with the mass of history in Wikipedia. The section on Holocaust denial in the article is a sad necessity, and already longer than the entire section on the extermination camps. I wish that we didn't have to have the section at all, but the fact that some people seem to believe it, or at least promote it, makes it necessary. This is not an issue about POV, it is an issue about stopping lies, it is like saying that the article on the blood libel should devote more time to views that the Jews drink babies blood. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I never mentioned "equal time" but if it must be included it deserves to be described from a neutral point of view. Truth is not a POV but the definition or perception of truth is. I am aware that you have a strong opinion on the topic but that should not prevent you from presenting a unbias account. I think a problem here is that you are describing Holocaust denial with denying the holocaust. The first involves doing the second or claiming that the numbers claimed by historians is wrong. The second one is illegal in many countries, as it claims the Holocaust did not happen. Some Jewish personalities can fall into the first category, so most of the adjectives including before the revert would not make sense. I do not have strong feelings for either, but think that every article in wikipedia should reflect NPOVs. Both sides claim the other side is lying. You have made it clear which side are you on, both article should not be on either side. --Vizcarra 22:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate it if you stop re-introducing the text while it is under discussion, for starters it is rude. --Vizcarra 22:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vizcarra, I am afraid I am going to need you to explain further. What is the first type of Holocaust denial that you are talking about? You say the second is claiming that the Holocaust did not happen, but I don't understand the difference between that and the first type. Who are the "Jewish personalities" that you say are Holocaust deniers under the definition in the article? Which reputable scholars are Holocaust deniers under the definition of the article? Holocaust deniers are a well-known phenomenon, and I am not sure how you can suggest this confusion exists, in fact, one section you deleted discusses how revisionism and denial differs. Please provide sourced information on the "confusion" because you are deleting sources from the article without giving any support for your points.

Besides, you have deleted material that has been in the article for over a year claiming it was new, which it wasn't. And I did not reintroduce any text since your last revert, another editor did, I am not being "rude". --Goodoldpolonius2 22:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do not be afraid of asking for explanations it is better than to make assumptions. Read the article Holocaust denial and if you still have any questions as to what positions fall under the umbrella of HD we can analyze them. The article also mentions reputable scholars that are HD under the definition of the article. I do not need any support for my points, but in turn addition of material needs to conform to POV, and at this point it has not. One cannot possibly describe an organization using bias and only citing sources that support such bias. --Vizcarra 22:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vizcarra, what reputable scholars are Holocaust deniers? There certainly aren't any in the article on Holocaust denial, in fact the opposite. And you really do need to support your points with some evidence -- you claim that legitimate Jewish scholars are Holocaust deniers, which ones? Again, one does not need to give equal time to a lie, it is not a POV issue. If you can give me some information on the problem you see, or some data on the legitimacy of Holocaust denial research, then we can continue this discussion, but I am still not sure what you are objecting to. Goodoldpolonius2 23:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is the second time that I explain to you that I never mentioned "equal time". Just so you can be sure of what I am objecting to I will repeat it: It is the inclusion of biased material and one-sided sources. HD being a lie is your POV, HD's POV is that their opponents account of the Holocaust is a lie. Neither is absolute truth. And would you please stop twisting my words, because if you keep doing that this discussion will go nowhere. I never mentioned "Jewish scholars" being HD. I mentioned both "scholars" (such as Harry Elmer Barnes, David Irving which you would have found mentioned in Holocaust denial) and "Jewish personalities" (such as Norman Finkelstein). --Vizcarra 23:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Neither is absolute truth"? Vizcarra, Holocaust denial being a lie is not a POV, it is indeed the absolute truth. Really. 5 to 6 million Jews were killed by Hitler, they were shot at Babi Yar, they were gassed at Auschwitz, they were slaughtered in the Warsaw Ghetto. Do you really think this is "a point of view"? Your three scholars are bit dubious -- Norman Finkelstein does not deny the Holocaust, he thinks it is being exploited. Harry Elmer Barnes's piece on the Holocaust in the 1940s has since been entirely discredited, and he died forty years ago in any case. David Irving was found by the courts of England to have "persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence...he is anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." He is certainly not a "scholar." Not everything is relative. Do you really believe that all of the articles on the Holocaust are just a POV, just as Holocaust denial is legitimate? That is very, very depressing. I really am not trying to twist your words, here, I am just reading what you said about material attacking Holocaust denial being "biased" and "one sided" and the historical account of the Holocaust not being "the absolute truth" compared to Holocaust denial. Goodoldpolonius2 23:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

They might be dubious (who isn't) but they are indeed reputable. And if two reputable historians are Holocaust denier then "maybe" your POV is not the absolute truth. "Do you really believe that all of the articles on the Holocaust are just a POV, just as Holocaust denial is legitimate? That is very, very depressing" Like I said would you please stop putting words in my mouth. Please, we are not going to go anywhere like that. If a subject is the object of controversy and you project only one side while the other one is supported by reputable scholars, then yes, the addition is biased. --Vizcarra 23:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How can a scholar be both reputable and dubious? Either their work is discredited, or it isn't. android 79 23:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Harry Elmer Barnes being "dubious" is Goodoldpolonius' POV, however his wikipedia article describes him not only as "reputable" but as a leading historian. --Vizcarra 00:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how you can call David Irving a reputable historian, the judge at his trial said that he was not, and that he made up evidence, from his trial: "if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then 'Irving is not a historian". That is pretty much the exact opposite. And I challenge you to find any historian who says that Barnes comments from fifty five years ago on the Holocaust were reputable or correct. And yes, you really keep calling the historicity of the Holocaust a point of view, you did it above. Perhaps you should read some of the info on the Irving trial and Nizkor's denial overview. --Goodoldpolonius2 00:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article also doesn't describe Barnes' Holocaust revisionism theories. At all. Something tells me it might be lacking in content. If we're going to take Wikipedia as the Gospel truth, Holocaust denial#The case of Harry Elmer Barnes explains that Barnes' work regarding the Holocaust was pretty widely discredited, regardless of the merits of his other, earlier work. android 79 02:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond agreeing fully with Goodoldpolonius here, I'd just like to reaffirm that NPOV is not the same thing as this kind of nihilistic relativism that Vizcarra seems to be pushing here. (Also, why isn't Norman Finkelstein a scholar? According to our article on him, he's a political science professor at DePaul with a Princeton PhD. That makes him more of a scholar than David Irving, although, as GOP has pointed out, Finkelstein doesn't actually deny the holocaust, so he's not a very good example.) As to David Irving, I can assure you that he is most certainly not a reputable historian. I'd say that since the libel trial, most historians would be highly reluctant to even call him a historian at all. Whatever credibility Irving may still have (which is certainly very, very, very little), it is in spite of, rather than because of, his holocaust denial. As to Harry Elmer Barnes, he was certainly a real historian, but even his actual historical work (the classic revisionist stuff on the origins of World War I, and so forth) is generally seen to be wholly discredited, while his later, holocaust denying stuff, is entirely dismissed by any actual scholars. The basic fact is that there are no reputable scholarly studies that say that the Holocaust did not happen, or that the numbers were wildly exaggerated. This is for the same reason that there are no reputable historical studies claiming that the First World War did not happen, or that George Washington was actually a woman - there is no evidence to back up this stuff. Unlike those other absurdities, though, Holocaust denial fits with the political agenda of a particularly odious, but outspoken, group, and thus it gets bandied about as though it has some claim to scholarly validity by certain groups. john k 00:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not pushing anything, and that's a bad start for a constructive discussion. And you are agreeing on the wrong things here since I never clained Finkelstein was a historian. Again, I am not claiming that the Holocaust not happening deserves any attention, but that there are reputable personalities that think that the accounts of the Holocaust are not accurate. And Holocaust denial would include these. --Vizcarra 00:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was confused by the fact that you said that Finkelstein was not a scholar. He is most certainly a scholar. As to reputable personalities thinking that the accounts of the holocaust are not accurate is nonsense. David Irving is simply not reputable; Finkelstein does not think that accounts of the holocaust are not accurate - just that the "holocaust industry" exploits the memory of the holocaust to promote policies he doesn't like. If the best we can do for reputable historians engaging in holocaust denial is the wacky late work of the already dubious Harry Elmer Barnes, then, no, there are not reputable personalities who engage in holocaust denial. john k 01:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

there are reputable personalities that think that the accounts of the Holocaust are not accurate -- The reputable ones are called "historians" and practice "history". Who do you have in mind? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you implying that only historians have a good reputation? Sounds like you are. Not only historians have an opinion worth considering but also journalists, policymakers, etc. --Vizcarra 23:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - So provide some examples. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be getting rather pointless, so to recap: Vizcarra originally objected that there is a catagory of "reputable scholars that are [Holocaust deniers] under the definition of the article." The definition in the article is: "...that far fewer than around six million Jews were killed by the Nazis (numbers below one million, most often around 300,000 are typically cited); that there never was a centrally-planned Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jews; and/or that there were not mass killings at the extermination camps." So far, Vizcarra gave three names of people who he said were reputable scholars that are mislabelled as Holocaust deniers: one was not a Holocaust denier, a second was the much repudiated later work of a historian in the 1960s, and the final one was found by courts to be lying about his evidence and was ruled "not a historian." I am not sure where that leaves Vizcarra's objection, or his desire to object. Vizcarra, do you still think the section needs to be changed, and to what? Discussion is great and all, but I am not sure where this is going, and arguing for the sake of it is only worth doing for so long. --Goodoldpolonius2 06:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Polonius, I agree with you though I wouldn't go so far to say that Irving is "not a historian" or "not a scholar" (even if the court said that). However, Irving certainly is no longer a respectable scholar, thanks to his Holocaust denying works. Of course, that takes nothing away from your overall conclusion. Str1977 17:26, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Having reread your earlier quote from the court, I agree with the court that he is not "reputable historian" anymore, with the emphasis on reputable. He was (and might still be) able to perform the historian's craft, but in the books in question, he didn't. And frabricating evidence certainly is the worst of the worst. Str1977 17:26, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that even though he had been a reputable historian before those incidents he cannot be longer be considered one afterwards. --Vizcarra 23:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Cultures of the World stub that summarizes cultures by regional variation

Please contribute if you can.--Culturesoftheworld 19:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was speedied, probably a good thing too. JFW | T@lk 21:47, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit regarding churches

Not being familiar with this particular aspect of the Holocaust, I didn't revert this edit, but I think what's being talked about here is Jews being baptized in Christian churches; therefore, changing it to "synagogues" is incorrect. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong. android 79 00:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, it's been fixed. android 79 00:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to page not "sticking"

I have added an addition to this page regarding a verifiable fact pertaining to the number of victims at Auschwitz, but it doesn't seem to update on the page for more than a few minutes. What am I doing wrong? WillMorgan 07:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It would suffice that the argument that you are making is rubbish. The inflated Auschwitz numbers were never used to calculate the death totals. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 08:15, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Will, in the hope that you are misinformed, and not knowingly trying to create confusion:

For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities and the Polish communist government stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. This number was never taken seriously by Western historians, and was never used in any of the calculations of the death toll at Auschwitz (which have generally remained consistantly around 1-1.5 million for the last sixty years) or for the total deaths in the Holocaust as a whole. After the collapse of the Communist government, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of Nizkor: "Deniers often use the "Four Million Variant" as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead. In short, all of the denier's blustering about the "Four Million Variant" is a specious attempt to envelope the reader into their web of deceit, and it can be discarded after the most rudimentary examination of published histories."[1]

That is from the article on Auschwitz concentration camp, you should now understand the problem with the material you are posting - it is pure propaganda that requires a willful disregard for the facts of how the death tolls of the Holocaust were calculated, as well as lying about the actual content of every historical book on the subject written by Western historians. I really hope that you did not do it deliberately, though having read your attempted insertions, I have my doubts. --Goodoldpolonius2 09:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... I had no idea that the 6 million number had been arrived at subsequent to the 1990 reduction at Auschwitz. I seem to remember hearing it as early as the 1960's. Thank you for that information. It still escapes me however, why it is that out of the countless millions of people who perished as a result of WWII, that the only ones we hear about (relentlessly, on an almost daily basis) is that 6 million. Now, you have replied to me with wrongdoings by "deniers". Whenever anyone questions anything about the Holocaust, immediately the topic is changed to "deniers". I posted in that section because it seemed like the appropriate place for a correction (or dispute, if you prefer) of number belonged. The "deniers" are not what I would call "revisionists" (with the exception of the IHR, who also have no reliable sources for numbers). I do happen to agree with Norman Finkelstein regarding the holocaust being promoted and capitalized onby many. I neither support nor concur with those who think the killing of jews did not happen, but like many of them, the simple fact that we are inundated daily with the cries of "6 million" leads me to believe that they are trying to tell us the sky is green. I have been able to find little reliable information, even on holocaust sites, to show that the number even approaches 6 million. If you could direct me to VERIFIABLE numbers that even come close to 6 million, I will shut up (I would even appreciate it, as I have been having this debate with a friend for over twenty years now). The "Population" entry under "Jew" here on Wikipedia states that the world population of Jews was approximately 18 million before the war and that the Holocaust reduced this number to approximately 12 million, but there is no reference for these numbers. Simpletoremember.com (Judaism online) says 17 million in 1939 and 11 million in 1945, also without reference. But, even if I was to accept either of those stats - both reflect a difference of 6 million - that means that in order to believe that nazis killed 6 million Jews, I am expected to believe that every Jew that died from 1939 to 1945 was exterminated in death camps. Other than those killings, Jewish population growth was for all intents and purposes, relatively stagnant for 6 or 7 years. Here's some other numbers I found: 1900 = 11 mil, 1930 = 15 mil (both on Wikipedia). Here's another from Simpletoremember.com: 500,000 Jews in Germany when Hitler came to power, 350,000 managed to relocate, 16-17,000 after the war. Simpletoremember.com attributes these numbers to The American Jewish Year Book, nothing on Poland or other surrounding countries, but if I accept these numbers, it's really difficult for me to envision hitler collecting and killing another 5.5 mil from outside germany. Like I said, I've been doing this for the past 20 years, not as a profession, just as a lay person. I guess I'll keep pursuing it, maybe with some assistance from you and others here. I'm so sick of all the whining and hand-wringing over the Holocaust (more than Jews died, lots more - trying to save them, and others who don't appreciate it, from the nazis - yet all we keep hearing to this day is 6 million, 6 million, 6 million...) and anti-semitism (for each and every race, religion, sex and sexual preference, there are bigots who hate them/us - what makes Jews so special that anti-semitism is all we hear about day in and day out?). There are countries in which it is a crime to voice opinions (whether those opinions are right or wrong is not the issue), and with hate crime legislation gaining popularity here, we're not far off. I keep getting told that the Liberty attack is ancient history, so is the Holocaust. WillMorgan 13:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I had no idea that the 6 million number had been arrived at subsequent to the 1990 reduction at Auschwitz. Nobody said it had. Both the inflation and the deflation of the Auschwitz numbers postdate the six million calculation. For this and the rest of your opinions, read Examination of Holocaust denial. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that only seems to make it more obvious that no one has reliable numbers. It is also yet another example of "deniers" being villified simply for their opposing views, all things considered. It is apparent that neither side has a leg to stand on regarding accurate numbers, which leaves only the promoters of the higher figures with something to lose if they are incorrect. Perhaps that is the desperation heard in every argument for the 6 million number to prevail, along with the notion that the nazis actually did intend to eradicate jews from existence (which I'm not entirely convinced of and become more unconvinced with every shrill insistence that it did happen), for without these and other tragedies (like wacko suicide bombers), real or imagined, the entire economy of the ugly (highly profitable) side of the holocaust crumbles. I continue to seek the truth, without regard for what is obviously propaganda from both sides. I still am at a loss as to why ANYONE who questions ANYTHING in regard to Jews is labeled anti-semite and defamed at every chance. It only lends creedence to some of the ideas put forth by the tin-foil hat wearers. WillMorgan 03:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. Feel free to debate this somewhere on some chat forum; Wikipedia is not that. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 03:55, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Merry Christmas!! 151.197.35.209 04:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Shoah Merge

I propose Shoah be merged into this article. --Nick Catalano (Talk) 20:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Shoah article shouldn't be merged into this one, simply because the Holocaust refers to the Nazi genocide program as a whole, while the Shoah is in reference specifically to the Jewish aspect of it. Having them separate can allow the Shoah article to develope on the impact on Jewish life in Europe without burdoning the main Holocaust page. Merging them will do injustice to both.

I don't pay lip service / Numbers speak for themselves!

National Geographic did a great service to humanity, by publishing in it's January, 2006, pages 28 through 35 a recount with factual numbers of the number of people killed in the 20th Century by country and by decade. While I don't downsize the importance of the events that happened during WWII, we only hear constantly about the suffering of the --6 million-- while we certainly see in N.G.'s article that more people were killed in Russia beginning in the 1920s and ending in the 50s (Stalin), and China under Mao, than the rest of the countries or nationalities combined. Yet, no one ever hears of persecutions of Communists or political dissidents, or any other group, so that we may remember them. War is war, people commit crimes, some get killed, some escape to tell the horrors, but most move on with their lives. Nonewithstanding, I am constantly bombarded by the "Jewish holocaust" as if it were more special than the rest. People throughout history have been killed, Jews are no different and the more there is emphasis on their suffering, the less credible it seems when there are others who are suffering at this very minute. Let the dead rest in peace, we are not the generation that committed those crimes, just as we are not the generation that took over the Americas and killed the natives.

Let's focus on what we can do today with the people that are alive and suffering now, not those who are dead. Sudan for example, is on the news, yet where do we stand? No one does anything and the killings continue despite of the phrase let's not forget. Well those who say, let's not forget are the very same who forget that killings have continued and continue to this day.

--Daniel Enrico di Palma Vicompte de León 20:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to create more articles to deal with today's inequities. But, as long as I am alive, I will honor my granparent's memory remembering their torture at the hands of the Nazi Germany and making sure nobody forgets. I think a lot of us heard about Stalin's persecutions and Mao's persecutions. But this article is not about them. If you feel you can contribute there, you're more than welcome to.

Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 20:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well those who say, let's not forget are the very same who forget that killings have continued and continue to this day. Speak for yourself. Which people who say "let's not forget" are forgetting today's killings? --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gellately and Kiernan edited a book in 2003, The Specter of Genocide : Mass Murder in Historical Perspective, that calls attention to Stalin's mass murder; I think robert Conquest wrote a book on this too. Chang and Halliday just came out with a book on Mao that highlights his responsibility for the death of millions and millions, and this book has been widely reviewed (The New Yorker, The New York Times Sunday Book review, The Bew York review of Books and I am sure many other popular publications). The film The Killing Fields received wide acclaim and brought renewed attention to Pol Pot's genocidal policies. The situation in the Sudan has been widely publicized in the news. The Rwandan genocide was the subject of a widely aclaimed Hollywood film. The genocide against Native Americans at the hands of the Spanish conquistadores is well known, as is the genocide of N. American Indians by the U.S. Cavalry (and the subject of popular Hollywood films by John Ford and Arthur Penn). If Daniel Enrico di Palma Vicompte de León doesn't know about these things, that reflects his own ignorance and not the lack of public attention to these awful things. His suggestion that everyone talks about the Jewish Holocaust at the expense of other awful things is just absurd on its face. Would you go to the page on the "US Civil War" and tell people to stop worrying about the Civil War and write about other more current topics? Would you go to the page on Quantum Mechanics and tell people to stop worrying about infinitesimally small particles and write about more current topics? This is an encyclopedia! We have articles on all sorts of topics. I smell a double-standard. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Review of the 6 Million figure?

Has there been any recent attempts to review the number of jewish losses during the war? I think the Holocaust page should at least merit a detailed analysis on how the number was calculated.

On this page: [Expulsion of Germans after World War II] the number of German losses caused by the ethnic cleansing is said to have been reduced through research from the figures ( 2 million?) stated in the years immediately following the war.

Has any similar analyzis been done for the Jewish losses? If not, can the same calculation methods be applied to both population groups? Stor stark7 14:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]