Talk:Carwyn Jones

Open Cast mining

Do you think we should discuss the open cast ruling against him for an open cast mine in merthyr tydfil & his opposition against an open cast mine in his constituency? user:sci-fry2001

Minister No More

On the same day that it was announced that Carwyn was to be Counsel General, Leader of the House and Minister for Assembly Business and Communications, it was realised that it was contrary to the Government of Wales Act 2006 that a Counsel General should hold the office of Minister, and so this ministerial post was dropped and put down to being a "mistake"!

Intro

Jones is now First Minister for Wales, which is now the most important thing in his biography. As such it needs to be discussed in the introductory sentence, per Wikipedia:LEDE#First sentence.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Also, editors should note that the Welsh Labour Party is not registered with the electoral commission (see here). Therefore, while politicians can be members of the WLP, they represent the The Labour Party for electoral purposes. Daicaregos (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It would probably also be good to link to the National Assembly for Wales in the intro.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I do think some link to the regional Welsh Labour is necessary, as Jones is (so far) involved in the regional, rather than central government.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I really don't understand the opposition to the intro changes. This is clearly the most important thing Jones has done so far, and it needs to be in the introductory sentence. I gave links to Obama and Brown above, but articles on regional government leaders begin this way as well, for example Alex Salmon, Charlie Crist, and David Onley.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:13, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree here, the lead is supposed to summarise the whole of the article and as this is clearly a significant part of the biography it needs to be mentioned there. Keith D (talk) 13:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

"is the third First Minister for Wales" corrected to "second". His predecessor Rhodri Morgan was the first person to bear that title. 92.21.239.38 (talk) 15:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Welsh Labour

The policies between Welsh Labour and Labour in the UK are greatly different, and Welsh Labour, in Wales does run as Welsh Labour and is refered to as Welsh Labour, they also have a website. The electoral commission point is neither here or there. --Welshsocialist (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why; "Welsh Labour" is just the branch of the Labour Party operating in Wales. Since he's registered as Labour we need to link it, though Welsh Labour is also linked in the intro. Other parties, like Plaid, do appear in the registry. The Ontario Liberal Party, the Republican Party of Florida, etc., have their own identies (and websites) and may have different political platforms than the central party, but they're not outright independent parties.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Insofar as elections are concerned, Carwyn Jones represents the Labour Party, which is a UK-wide party. No-one can vote for a representative of Welsh Labour unless and until it is registered with the Elecoral Commission. If Welsh Labour has separate policies then those should be dealt with in the aticle text, if notable, along with mention of his membership of Welsh Labour (although whether anyone can be a member of Welsh Labour is debatable. Does it have a constitution for example? Labour constituency members in Wales are members of the Labour Party. When applying to attend the Welsh Labour conference the application form asks only for Labour Party membership details. etc., etc.). Daicaregos (talk) 10:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Here are some articles I could find quickly to support Welsh Labour in the article. It also mentions the status of Welsh Labour in the Welsh Labour article. I don't see what the problem is or how it is misleading. The party is widely known as Welsh Labour, both in Wales, within the Labour party and also on the ballot papers.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
--Welshsocialist (talk) 12:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

As noted above, while politicians can be members of Welsh Labour, they represent the The Labour Party for electoral purposes. This should be reflected in the article. As far as the article here goes, aside from the fact that Welsh Labour cannot have an "election" manifesto, because they are not a registered party, you will note that they implore you to "Vote Labour - and then Vote Labour again" (last but one paragraph page 2), not "Vote Welsh Labour - and then Vote Welsh Labour again" - because you can't. The link to The Electoral Commission shows no note of "Welsh Labour". Indeed their link to party finances shows the Labour Blaenau Gwent link to be to The Labour Party, and the official address of each of the 'accounting units' of The Labour Party in Wales (i.e. Aberavon Clp, Aberconwy Clp etc., etc.,) is given as "Labour Party, Compliance Unit, 39 Victoria Street, London, SW1H OHA". Please provide evidence for your claim that "The party is widely known as Welsh Labour ... on the ballot papers." I have not said anywhere that I believe using Welsh Labour is misleading, or that I think it is. But the fact is that it is not accurate when used in the context of representative government or elections to representative government. This is an encyclopaedia and the information given must be accurate. I reiterate the post made above, as the points contained in it have been completely ignored. Please address them: Insofar as elections are concerned, Carwyn Jones represents the Labour Party, which is a UK-wide party. No-one can vote for a representative of Welsh Labour unless and until it is registered with the Elecoral Commission. If Welsh Labour has separate policies then those should be dealt with in the aticle text, if notable, along with mention of his membership of Welsh Labour (although whether anyone can be a member of Welsh Labour is debatable. Does it have a constitution for example? Labour constituency members in Wales are members of the Labour Party. When applying to attend the Welsh Labour conference the application form asks only for Labour Party membership details. etc., etc.). Daicaregos (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The waters are muddied because while Labour in Wales is part of one British Labour Party, it's pursued a different policy agenda to Labour at Westminister.[6] There is a Wales-level structure within the Labour Party, which has existed since 1947 and has been branded as Welsh Labour since 2000. This entity has an executive committee and holds an annual conference.[7] A paper by Andrew Lincoln discusses some of the institutional subtleties.[8]--Pondle (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Sorry Pondle, but thanks for that. The issue of how to deal with UK political parties in Wales and Scotland in intros and infoboxes has been raised centrally at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom#The Labour Party or Welsh Labour /Scottish Labour Party. Your participation in the discussion would be welcome. Daicaregos (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, would agreeable to out Welsh Labour in brackets after the Labour it as in A member of the Welsh Labour Party (Welsh Labour). It is impossible to mention the Welsh Labour party having seperate policies in the article, and I hope that we both can see it as accurate. I am also sorry that I mis-undered to "3R" rule, I was mis-informed about it by someone.--Welshsocialist (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2010 (UTC)