Talk:Gaucho

Wardrobe malfunction

The description for chiripá corresponds to gaucho bombachas. I've also added the correct meaning of chiripá.

See DRAE (Dictionary of the Real Academia Española, in Spanish): Chiripá and Pantalón Bombacho

Also in Spanish: Chiripá and Bombachas.

Several sources (for example, the last one above) cite that the bombachas were British imports from Turkey, it is worth mentioning?

Ejrrjs 00:15, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning, I love stuff like that... -- Jmabel | Talk 01:31, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Will you add those references to the article or should I? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

I'll do it Ejrrjs 08:14, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Done. Here there is another secondary source (in Spanish, 1st paragraph). It would be nice to add the Turkish name for the bombachas. Ejrrjs 11:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

UCSB

Why would anyone reading about gauchos want to know that it happens to be the mascot of UCSB? This seems to me to be appropriate to mention at University of California, Santa Barbara, but not here. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Ejrrjs | What? 22:07, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:22, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Why is it appropriate to mention the mascot in the FIFA World Cup, but not at UCSB? Ar57 4 July 2005 09:23 (UTC)

Because the former is significantly related to Argentina, while the latter is an absolutely arbitrary symbol. But I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing it gone as well.-- Jmabel | Talk July 4, 2005 17:38 (UTC)

I added a 'Modern Influences' section (mostly to get 'gaucho pants' in without giving the main article too many asides) and now it seemed reasonable to add the UCSB reference back in. Robbyslaughter 15:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The gaucho isn't

name for an occupation

has same mistake.

No, you can have gauchos of any ethniticity; e.g. "Los gauchos judíos" (The Jewish Gauchos), a novel by Alberto Gerchunoff.

Ejrrjs | What? 06:34, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But they were minority in the gaucho siciety, weren't they? --Ypacaraí 13:16, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Well, they used to live in their own Colonias, so it depends on where the census is made :-)

I could also mention the black gauchos, such as the moreno killed by Martín Fierro. My point is: gauchos were either mestizos or criollos (or even black or mulattos) and did not have any specific "racial" distinction from the inhabitants of the cities. Of course they shared a specific culture, which can be still enjoyed on special occasions (such as Heritage Day, November 10th). They were "long distance" herders and that job is not required any longer. Ejrrjs | What? 18:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh sorry, I used the word "ethnic" w/o knowing it includes "racial" meaning. Of course I read (translated) "Martin Fierro". I meant in above comment that they shared cultural character, so they shouldn't be considered as some sort of occupation and could be considered as a nation. And this nation was suppressed and mistreated like Jose Hernandez described in "Martin Fierro". Much later, after hordes of european immigrants had shared the pampas safely, the specific culture is now only used as touristic attractions. Isn't it? So I think the difinition in this article isn't correct. --Ypacaraí 03:03, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

But sharing a cultural character a nation does not make. The first reason is, they didn't even try to do it, so it is a counterfactual statement (see, instead, Rio Grande do Sul, which was an independent Republic for a while). Secondly, a shared culture seems to be a precondition for nation building (Ernst Gellner:Nations and Nationalism, Cornell University Press, 1983) but is not enough (nation of skaters, of surfers, of nerds??) (...to be continued...) Ejrrjs | What? 18:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But I'm using the word "nation" as a group of people sharing same culture, like creole. --Ypacaraí 23:48, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

For me the argentine gauchos are an ethnic group. They have their "own names", their "own music", their "own women" (las chinitas), their own clothing, their own food, their own house styles (ranchos), Etc., I don't think that gauchos are the equivalent for cowboys, it's just for Walt Disney cartoon?.

The jewish gauchos weren't "gauchos" they were called so for the rural life of them. --Vokoder 20:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

DON't SPEAK ABOUT WHAT YOU DONT KNOW

Trying to interpret and understand a culture just by reading books proves to be a constant mistake. Tylor and Frazier today are known to be "arm chair scholars" for just such a falacy.

The above wrote that the traditional way of the Gaúcho is only a Tourist attraction. As a Gaúcho, born in Porto Alegre, RS I find this insulting. To live as a Gaúcho implies an ontology and a cosmology of its own. My traditions live through me. I am not a Paulista ( a person from São Paulo)or a Carioca ( a person from Rio), I am my pride of being Gaúcho, and my pride is who I am.

Do not wright about things you do not know. Don't assume. A couple of months ago, a couple danish cartoonists made the same mistake. Look at the impact.

People don't realize, (are naive in the case of the cartoonist's) the dimension of disrespect they are achieving in making an assumption about a culture.

Ala Púcha Tchê

So are you going to help work on the article, or just complain? - Jmabel | Talk 01:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this article mainly handles about Gauchos in Argentine and Uruguay, and not referring Gaúchos as nickname of Rio-grandenses. So did I. --Ypacaraí 13:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I am Gaúcho, and i kind of agree with Jmabel. This is a destructive critic. Instead of complaining ppl should try to make the article better, make CONSTRUCTIVE critics. IMHO the article is a nice try. NOTE (for Ypacaraí and others) the "Gaúcho" culture is in fact a branch or derivation of several cultures that used to live in this area, so YES, Gauchos of Argentina, Uruguay and Brasil do have the same roots, even though the brasilian Gaúcho is the most recognizable and different. -Atriel

UCSB

I've retained a brief mention of the gaucho being the mascot of UCSB, but cut this longer passage:

Also, the official mascot of the University of California, Santa Barbara. The gaucho itself is only represented by a black, zoro-type mask although there are occasional appearances by the "phantom," an alumn who returns to basketball games to cheer the team on, along with the rowdy (and often intoxicated) pep club, the gaucho locos.

If someone wants to start an article on the gaucho as icon or in popular culture, this (with the spelling fixed) would presumably belong there. - Jmabel | Talk 20:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How about Santa Catarina

Is well know fact that Santa Catarina, RS neighbour's state, does host some Gaúchos. And also in the Guerra dos Farrapos RS joinned SC and founded República Juliana. I think the article lacks by not citing Gaúchos in Santa Catarina. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.37.94.165 (talk • contribs) 17 January 2007.

If it is a well-known fact, there should be little difficulty finding citation. - Jmabel | Talk 22:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a small and very scantily populated area in the mountains of Santa Catarina, between São Joaquim and the border with Rio Grande do Sul, which has essentially a Gaúcho culture, but other than that, the only Brazilians that could be considered Gaúcho north of Rio Grande do Sul are migrants from that state and their descendants.

In this sense, Gaúchos can be found everywhere in Brazil, even in the very distant Amazon region, because people from Rio Grande do Sul have migrated to all parts of the country and in many cases founded communities with strong Gaúcho roots and traditions. For example, there is a town called Porto dos Gaúchos ("Port of the Gaúchos") in northern Mato Grosso, thousands of kilometres from Rio Grande do Sul. However, Gaúchos are almost invariably a minority group in such areas and not representative of the prevailing local culture (although acknowledged to have heavily influenced it in many places).

I believe that in Brazil, Gaúchos are basically and strongly associated with Rio Grande do Sul, to the point that the word gaúcho is used in Brazilian Portuguese as a universal demonym for people from there, even for modern urban dwellers of the state capital of Porto Alegre with immigrant rather than Gaúcho ancestry in its strictest sense (the alternative demonyms sul-rio-grandense and rio-grandense-do-sul, although more precise, are only very rarely used and considered somewhat pedantic). The República Juliana was a brief political alliance at a precise historical moment, and I don't think it made catarinenses (people from Santa Catarina) any closer to Gaúcho culture in the long term. The two states do have a lot in common (as well as strong economic ties), but this affinity is chiefly due to the intense European immigration (most notably German and Italian) to both states starting in the 1880s - long after the core Gaúcho culture was formed in the Pampas plains (which geographically do not extend north to Santa Catarina).

So, personally, I don't think Gaúchos in Santa Catarina are significant enough to be mentioned.

--UrsoBR (talk) 10:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

Regarding: "the Arabic chaucho (a type of whip used in herding animals)." While I have no idea if a proposed Arabic origin if Gaucho is correct, I would note that "chaucho" is clearly not an Arabic word at all, although this may be a Iberian deformation of an Arabic word for "a type of whip used in herding animals." The CH (is it "sh" as in French or "ch" as in English, or...) does not exist in Arabic, and the form of the word given looks to be Iberian (Spanish I would guess). This entry should obviously be researched more (although Wikipedia in its typical sloppiness is a great source for naive false etymologies). (collounsbury 17:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC))

free image

there's a great free image of a gaucho here: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g12117 140.247.240.181 23:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ronaldinho

In the section "Modern influences", one reads: "Ronaldinho, nicknamed by some as Ronaldinho Gaúcho" but as long as any brazilian I know refers to Ronaldinho as "Ronaldinho gaúcho", I suggest to change the entry to "Ronaldinho, nicknamed in Brazil as Ronaldinho Gaúcho"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Mascot's hat

Reading the text I can't find any reference to the origin of the gaucho's hat and the exclusive association of both. As I ain't any specialist in the subject I can't make a straight association of the hat worn by the Texas Tech's mascot (some kind of zorro) and the one commonly worn by the gauchos. So why shouldn't the entry be removed? Moreover one can quickly make confusion between the zorro there and a gaucho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

A way of life

I think this article lacks by not emphisizing the gaucho as belonging to a way of life preserved untill today and the association with the term gaucho with cowboy seems erroneous to me, as we have the terms vaqueiro, peão, etc; in portuguese and words like peón and vaquero in spanish. Perhaps it should be explicitly pointed that the gaucho's way of life isn't any touristic show. We can cite, for example the activities of the worldwide Movimento Tradicionalista Gaúcho and the Confederacion Gaucha Argentina and they efforts to keep traditionalism in these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Purpose

Hello again. My final contribution (complain?) for now is to purpose a complete renewing of the article. The new one is intended to have sections differentiating the gaucho as it is in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, etc; sections explaining the gaucho's complete gear, culinary, traditions, festivities, peculiar language, their influence in their country and so on. I think that with a joint effort we can extend this article to a subsection of WikiProject South America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Changes made

As nobody manifested contrary, I'm making some of the changes that I've pointed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Criollos

Any reason not to use Criollo people over creole peoples when linking from the criollos? It would be more accurate, no? I reverted for now pending discussion.--MartinezMD (talk) 14:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A problem with that would be that in Brazil, where part of the Gaúchos live, the similar Portuguese word crioulo has a totally different meaning from what is understood as criollo or creole in other countries. It is used to designate people with black (African) ancestry, and although commonplace in the past, it is now considered derogatory, racist and very politically incorrect. This could be confusing and troublesome.

--UrsoBR (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Pampas "as far north as Paraná"?

The article text said that "Gauchos (...) lived on the pampas, the plain that extends north from Patagonia, bounded on the west by the Andes and extending as far north as the Brazilian state of Paraná." This was absolutely incorrect, since just north of Rio Grande do Sul (and including that state's northeastern area and part of the North) is the high plateau of Santa Catarina that marks the end of the plain. In Brazil, the Pampas plain comprises solely the larger part of Rio Grande do Sul, extending from Argentina on the west and from Uruguay on the south. So, I have corrected that phrase's ending to "...and extending on the east to Uruguay and the Brazilian state of Rio Grande do Sul." --UrsoBR (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Paragraph order change proposal

[[File:The gaucho plays an important symbolic role in the nationalist feelings of this region, especially that of Argentina and Uruguay. The epic poem Martín Fierro by José Hernández used the gaucho as a symbol against corruption and of Argentine national tradition, pitted against Europeanising tendencies. Martín Fierro, the hero of the poem, is drafted into the Argentine military for a border war, deserts, and becomes an outlaw and fugitive. The image of the free gaucho is often contrasted to the slaves who worked the northern Brazilian lands. Further literary descriptions are found in Ricardo Güiraldes' Don Segundo Sombra.]]

I think this paragraph is more relevant than the DNA study of the gaucho from Rio Grando do Sul. Therefore it should be placed before. The DNA could be more relevant if it wasn't exclusive to the gauchos from the south of Brazil but the gauchos from all regions. This DNA study is very specific to one region, which is why it should be place after the paragraph mention. The more general information should be most times place before.