Talk:Alexander Kolchak

his surname is turkic, why?

2001: Which supreme court?

"However, two rehabilitation requests have been denied, by a regional military court in 1999 and by the Supreme Court of Russia in 2001."

Russia has two Supreme Courts plus a Constitutional Court. I'm guessing it was the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation and not the one dealing with Economics, but without a citation I can't be sure. Can someone track this down, cite it, and fix up the Wikilink? Thank you. davidwr ^09f9(talk) 01:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Song

A Red Army marching song lampooned Kolchak (as well as the attempts of foreign nations to stop the Reds):
The uniforms are British
The epaulettes from France
Japan sends tobacco, and
Kolchak leads the dance

The uniforms are tattered
The epaulettes are gone
So is the tobacco, and
Kolchak's day is done

What year was he born in, really?

Half the sources say 1873, another half - 1874. Many, actually say both: e.g. http://www.peoples.ru/military/admiral/kolchak/index.html (first mention is 16.11.1873, second is 16 ноября 1874. I read protocols of his interrogation in January 1920, there he answers: I was born in 1873. I'm now 46 years old. Maybe that's the truth? Panda34 19:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Romanian or Bosnian origin

The article indicates that he was of Romanian origin, however indicates no source. Other sources indicate that he was of Bosnian origin. Does anybody know where the truth lies and provide the required references?Afil (talk) 02:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

That depends on how far back you want to go. Kolchak is a Turkic name, originally they were Cumans and lived in Siberia, then migrated to Europe and lived in Bosnia. Kolchak's ancestor Ilias Pasha enlisted in Turkish army and was captured by Russians. Then they lived in Poland. Under Catherine II Lucian Kolchak, Alexander's greatgrandfather, was a Cossack of the Buh host. As to Romanian origin - that probably was inserted by some nationalist (IP from Moldova). He did the same in Russian version (albeit not so categorical - it states that 'Romanians think Kolchak is Romanian on account of Kolchak is a common name in Romania.', probably because Russian version already had information on Kochak's Turkish origin). Ironically, Romanian article has nothing on it. --Panda34 (talk) 15:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Where do you have your information from? Kolchak is a pure Russian surname of Slavonic origin. Kolchak is a mushroom and you will also find this word in other Slavonic languages which where never influenced by Turks. See Kolczak in Polish wikipedia. Kolchak comes from proto-Slavonic Kolo (circle, ring). Voyevoda (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not a matter of etymology on which you may be right, but of genealogy. Kolchak's genealogy is fairly well-known, some you may see at [1] (up to Ilias Pasha) Here's also a version of etymology from russian dictionary [2]

--Panda34 (talk) 09:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If some nationalist just inserted the Romanian reference on no solid grounds, then it should be deleted. On the face of it, it doesn't make sense to say he was born in Petersburg and is of Romanian origin. As well, after he graduates, he is said to be attached to some city – but no city is named earlier, so this doesnt make sense either. This is poorly written stuff and needs some sharp editing. I don't know enough factually about the topic to do the editing, but as it stands, I would say it doesn't really meet minimum standards of clarity and coherence.

Theonemacduff (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Koltchak, Admiral Koltchak as synonyms

Perhaps someone more capable than myself would like to consider making a search for "Admiral Koltchak" redirect to this page, and for "Koltchak" to be directed to the Kolchak disambiguation page. I'd only ever seen the "Koltchak" form, and it took me a little while to find this article. Regards Msdorney (talk) 02:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

RR war

Someone can explain what this is all about? Thanks.Biophys (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

reverting without explanation is against WP rules. Please respond.Biophys (talk) 14:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I made a few edits to NPOV this a little. Soviet propaganda sources (including Great Soviet Encyclopedia) are very unreliable, especially when they tell about enemies of the Bolshevik regime. Please use better Western sources. And please discuss your edits here.Biophys (talk) 22:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

So, no one wants to talk. I am telling this fourth time for a record. Why are you making this revert?. First of all, you reverted many things, not only phrase about 25,000. Second, please read the source. It tells: "Революционные выступления жестоко подавлялись: только в Екатеринбургской губернии было расстреляно свыше 25 тыс. человек." So, this is clearly about executions of rebels ("Революционные выступления жестоко подавлялись").Biophys (talk) 00:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

This is not clear. If you want to include this implication, just cite this GSE entry word for word. You also deleted the Mayer reference without explanation. And now you've deleted it again. PasswordUsername (talk) 01:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I included this reference back, but it provides no factual information about repressions.Biophys (talk) 01:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly not insignificant to the article. Unless you believe that only statistical lists are acceptable for Wikipedia entries. PasswordUsername (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I believe that factual events and data are more important that empty-worded claims (including those by Kolchak) which were never implemented.Biophys (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, neither of you who are vandalizing and censoring this article have taken a history course. Historians do not disregard sources just because it is written by someone with a certain point of view. To the contrary, all sources from all sides are analyzed and taken into consideration. Great Soviet Encyclopedia is a scholarly source written by members of Russia's Academy of Sciences and translated by the West's leading scholars and published by Macmillan -- certainly not propaganda sources. In fact, BSE is among the most reliable sources for data and factual information about Russian history. Please cite a single scholar who says that material published by Russia's Academy of Sciences cannot be used. In all English-language scholarship I've read about Russian history, pre-1990 sources published in Moscow are cited. You cannot remove sources just because you don't like what they say, for that amounts to censorship contrary to Wikipedia rules. It's also noteworthy that BSE is cited in countless Wiki articles. With this article in particular, due to scant research by Western scholars on the topic of Kolchak, Russian sources are cited. Russian sources on Russian history, needless to say, are much better than those by western scholars. Continuing efforts to vandalize and censor this article will be resolutely combated.Kupredu (talk) 19:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Kupredu's comments to those reverting the cited GSE information (which notes that the source is Soviet). There is no reason to include the GSE at all, unless there is better information elsewhere. As such, I suggest the GSE material be reincluded. PasswordUsername (talk) 02:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

This not a matter of view, but a matter of official political censorship and official disinformation along the lines of Soviet historiography.Biophys (talk) 02:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

<--- See [3]. The GSE is fine to use as an illustration of what the Soviet POV was at a particular time. It's generally not a RS for "data and factual information" (about Russian, or other history). In some cases it may be used with attribution (as in "The Great Soviet Encyclopedia says that...") - though I think those cases need to be discussed first and probably require consensus. Also there's no presumption either way on whether western or Russian sources are better on Kolchak - it depends on the question "in what way?"radek (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Your claim that Soviet-era sources are not RS for data and factual information is incorrect. Professor Evan Mawdsley says that for the Russian Civil War, "Colonel Kakurin's two-volume kak srazhalas revoliutsiia is the best military narrative. Russian sources on Kolchak are superior by default because of the absence of works by western scholars on the subject. All work published by Russia's Academy of Sciences qualify as reliable secondary sources. I advise you to take a history course before giving lectures on what sources are reliable.Kupredu (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Wikipedia precedent says BSE is a reliable source. Kupredu (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, first, please keep in mind the need for civility, [4] (I'm pretty sure I've taken way more history courses in my life than you have). Second, it is not me that is claiming that the GSE is not reliable for data and factual information, but the editors at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. If you wish to challenge this, then make a request over there. Third, I was referring to GSE not Kakurin, who may or may not be reliable.radek (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia precedent established that GSE is a reliable source and Mawdsley's statement about Kakurin without a doubt confirms that material published by Russia's Academy of Sciences is reliable. There is no basis for any dispute regarding these sources Kupredu (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No, no it didn't. Don't misrepresent what that discussion, GSE generally not reliable, actually says. In fact if anything it shows why GSE is not considered reliable. Also please note that the link I provided, GSE not reliable except to illustrate Soviet POV, is two years younger than your link, so EVEN IF that precedent ever existed, it got trumped since then. Kakurin maybe reliable, but GSE, not reliable, sorry.radek (talk) 22:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

This discussion consisting of a few remarks established nothing, actually. Mawdsley's bibliography consisting of Soviet-era sources and his statement about Kakurin proves that Soviet-era scholarship is reliable. You do not qualifications to determine what sources are reliable unlike professional historians. Kupredu (talk) 22:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The discussion establishes the consensus as to reliability of GSE by the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. And that consensus is, "generally not reliable". We are not talking about any ol' Soviet era source but about a specific one, GSE. Furthermore, Mawdsley's statement establishes that Kakurin may be reliable for MILITARY matters (troop movements, strength, etc.). Not political or broadly historical matters. And how do you exactly know what my qualifications are?radek (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, where exactly is Kakurin being cited or where is a statement attributable to him being disputed? Is this just a red red herring?radek (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Place of death and a bit about Kolchak's wife - correction

No, his body was thrown into the Topka river, a small tributary to Angara. The arrest and police station where he was executed is still there and it still has the same function. The Topka is next the this building and the Angara is not.

His wife was also imprisoned, but only shortly. She survived and became a school teacher and died later of natural reasons. Stalin must have forgotten about the Kolchak family and her survival through the purges and years of terror is nothing less of a miracle.

This according to a local historian in Irkutsk, who has specialized on the history of Admiral Kolchak. As for the place of death, the local historian is backed up by Jonathan D. Smerle "Civil war in Siberia". There is a small cross in the Topka river to memorate the actual spot, where Kolchak's body was thrown into the water.

Jens Alstrup - http://www.gulag.eu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.46.196 (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

• Above comment regarding Kolchak's wife is incorrect. The woman referred to is Kolchak's mistress who was with him after his wife and son departed Russia for France. The remainder of the story is correct. My grandfather was held in the same prison and heard about the details of Kolchak's execution the morning after from one of the prison guards.Федоров (talk) 00:39, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

• Well, we may both be wrong to a degree. In the Russian movie "The Admiral", Kolchak married again on route to Irkutsk, without divorce from his former wife. What I was told refers to the fate of the mistress or (second) wife. The movie says that she were kept in camp for 35 years before release. However this movie was NOT a documentary. Jens Alstrup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.46.196 (talk) 11:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Since my grandparents both knew Kolchak and my grandfather worked with Kolchak personally I have no reason to remotely consider that his information was incorrect. Kolchak never married his mistress. Yes, she was arrested by the Bolsheviks. However, since she was merely Kolchak's mistress she was of little consequence and, with time, she was released, lived out her life and died of natural causes. And, yes, "Admiral" the movie is not a documentary and a totally accurate portrayal.Федоров (talk) 12:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• I am not doubting your grandfather and even if Kolchak did marry again, it would not be a legal marriage as long as he was not divorced. That could explain why your grandfather was not told, if the story really is true (illegal marriages are not something you boast about if you are fighting against red infidels and Antichrist as a servant of God). Maybe the "marriage" is stated in the archives in Irkutsk as a result of a last minute accept by the Admiral because of loyalty from the mistress. We are talking about a man, who was about to be executed within hours. I am sure the historian I talked with in Irkutsk based his story on written material in books and archives. If you live in Irkutsk, you should try to get access to the local archives and look for verification or maybe the local historical museum has the material (likely, as the museum was the local revolutionary museum earlier). I will do the same, but I will not be able to go there for a long time. The life of Kolchak is a very interesting and still relatively unknown part of history. I hope you will publish what you have.