Talk:July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike

New article

Hey everyone, this page is in need of some help! There's a plethora of information on this incident I haven't been able to integrate yet. Most of it can be found at collateralmurder.com and wikileaks.org, and is mirrored on all of the major news websites. The Washington Post also has some info. I'm pretty new to editing, so any help with formatting is much appreciated!WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 02:29, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Whew this grew quick. Work needed: "Incident" section should be expanded - with evidence from the video, a detailed description of the incident can be created, and referenced back to the video.WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 05:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Pentagon

I've heard that the pentagon has denied that this ever took place and that in fact also tried to get wikileaks taken down before April 5th to prevent the video from leaking. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, does it sound like something that should be mentioned in the article? Rafael 06:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The US Government (probably not the Pentagon specifically) confirmed the existence of the incident at the time (Reuters started pressuring them very quickly), but it's the more controversial details (what exactly the Apache crew saw and how they made their decisions) that were unknown until now (because the Pentagon denied requests to see this video). Wikileaks has also stated that they've had conflict with US intelligence services, and has posted documents supposedly from the Pentagon talking about the threat Wikileaks might pose and steps that can be taken to stop whistleblowers. I'm not sure if all of these things are directly related, and I don't believe the Pentagon report has been officially confirmed as real (although I wouldn't be surprised if it has been).

More directly: No denial of incident, just denial of access and details. As for taking Wikileaks "down", I haven't seen anything other than the usual paranoia (somewhat rightfully) associated with this kind of event - definitely no verified action against Wikileaks other than the aforementioned conflicts and confrontations. At this point it looks like everything is "acceptable", in the sense that there don't seem to be any "the sky is green" lies or attempts to do anything other than intimidate Wikileaks. 98.246.144.63 (talk) 07:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Bias In The Transcript

The 'transcript' here is not complete in any way, and does not claim to be. However, there are selected quotes here that are not a fair representation of the video. Adding things like: One small child wounded. Over." - "Roger. Ah damn. Oh well." and 07:25:27 "There it goes! Look at that bitch go!" but not including the full text really doesnt seem right. Someone should do a full text (of the full 40 minute video not the short one with comments on it) to really show what is going on in the video. The selective quotes are not enough. This is an important incident, and many many people should see the video in its entirety. We all know this video is useless if its edited to support your point of view or only show selective parts of it

Full transcript, now linked in the External links section. I wonder how we should incorporate that into the article though... NW (Talk) 20:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest adding it to wikiquote and leaving a link to the text here. Other articles use that format, so it should not be an issue. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Media Blackout

There clearly wasn't a media blackout, as the incidenct was covered by CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Huffington Post, the BBC, amongst others only a few hours after the incident. It wasn't exactly speedy, but it seems unlikely that they were pressured into not running the story (whether they were pressured into omitting facts is a different matter). The media blackout controversy seemed to have started on reddit soon after the release because it took the MSM a few hours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.67.97 (talk) 07:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - reddit has a tendency to hype the conspiracy side of things. I think the section in "Publicity" on the so-called media blackout should be rewritten more neutrally.WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 09:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I just deleted all the media blackout stuff, since, you know, it didn't exist.--132.177.67.97 (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

good call, reddit's BS self-posts are not a legitimate source. this was definitely on tv yesterday Plastichandle (talk) 17:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Circumstances

Does anyone know why the helicopter crew were suspicious of people walking around? Had people been told to stay indoors or leave the district, for example? New Thought (talk) 12:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible to work out either from the video or from the gap between the gun firing and rounds arriving in the target area how far the helicopter was from the target area? New Thought (talk) 12:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Assuming the audio and video are well synched, it's got to be a considerable distance. 33° (talk) 12:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia lists the muzzle velocity of the M230 chain gun on the Apache as 805 m/s, the delay between seeing the camera shake (gun being fired) and the bullets hitting the ground is ~2.1sec, which gives an approximate distance of 1690 meter or ~1 mile. -- Grumbel (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Also two questions that should be answered in the article: Is it allowed to shoot people caring AK-47 in a non-threatening manner? Some people mentioned that owning and carrying a AK-47 is perfectly legal in Iraq (but maybe not at the time and location of the incident?). Also some people mentioned that the video quality inside the helicopter is substantially better then what we see in the recorded video, is that the case? Does anybody have an example for comparison? -- Grumbel (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The range is ~1050m as the helicopter comes around the building, immediately before they open fire. They close to 940m by the time the burst impacts. The range, coupled with their altitude of ~1000ft syncs up pretty well with the gun's muzzle velocityApacheguy (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• Not to take away from anyone's inside knowledge or math skills based on probably reasonable assumptions, but unless a reliable source discusses the distance of the helicopter to the targets, it's contrary to Wikipedia:No original research to make any claims about this in the article. — Scientizzle 15:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Regarding this edit claiming that the "no original research" policy was never intended to apply to straightforward arithmetic...it's not just straightforward arithmetic. There are a number of assumptions that are necessary for the arithmetic to be correct, including knowing the exact models of the equipment onboard or that the camera shake accurately represents the time of gun firing. Also, it's clear that the engagement range varied over the attack as well. We can wait for a secondary source to discuss this issue. — Scientizzle 16:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

sorry - I didn't see these new comments in this section. However, the approximate range should be in the article to counter the impression that the video gives that the helicopter was close to the target area. New Thought (talk) 16:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I can see your point regarding the zoom lens being possibly confusing. Leaving a {{cn}} on a likely correct claim that the range was about a km isn't unreasonable. It's likely that more specific data will surface regarding this point. Perhaps there's something in the official report--the cryptome.org link--that indicates the range of engagement? It wouldn't surprise me. — Scientizzle 16:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• I pulled the range & altitude sources from the Technical Manual for the Apache, TM 1-1520-251-10 Technical Manual for Helicopter, Attack, AH-64D Longbow Apache, U.S. Army. Since this cannot be considered a reliable source due to its proprietary nature, I will continue to search for a more easily verifiable way to back my claim.Apacheguy (talk) 16:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The article states that 'Both children were evacuated to forward operating base Loyalty'. However, both the chatter (transcript) and Wikileaks claim the children were simply dumped at a local facility, suggesting a different standard of care. I do not consider the source is credible as it has been established that the official statements were inaccurate. As the video is deemed genuine by all parties involved it should be assumed that it was a local hospital and not military care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rernst2 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"Pretext"

I've moved this off the article for further discussion:

although it has also been noted that they seem to be looking for a pretext, with one pilot stating "All you gotta do is pick up a weapon".

This quote is accurate but calling it a pretext implies it happened before shots were fired, whereas actually it comes later. I'm not sure if it should be in the article. 33° (talk) 12:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Civilians?

At 3:45 in the 17 minute video, the behaviour of the guys in the top centre of the video looks very suspicious indeed - and the item they are carrying looks very much like an AK-47 or RPG to me. Are we 100% stone cold certain that they are civilians? New Thought (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The Army's investigation report says that the Bravo Company discovered "two RPG's and an AK-47 or AKM among the group of insurgents clustered near the wall. They also discovered two Canon EOS digital cameras with large telephoto lenses attached in the immediate vicinity of the bodies." [1] (see page 13 of the PDF). This makes it very difficult to argue that they were all civilians or that we don't know if they were insurgents. --HYC (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The footage clearly shows that several of the "civilians" are carrying AK-47s. The rather biased description in this article needs to be changed whok (talk) 00:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Original synthesis

The Publicity section appears to be completely original synthesis. We need external sources connecting all the dots. It's not our task to do that. __meco (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

How it was reported in 2007

someone should include a section for how it was reported in 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=4&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

this article says the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed. which turned out to be a complete lie.--86.133.232.107 (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is it a "lie"? Weapons were indeed found at the scene. No one is now disputing that some civilians were killed but some of the group were conspicuously armed.whok (talk) 00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

useful images

These are images to be added when the article has enough text to hold them.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• 
  AH-64 Apache 30mm gun
• 
  Canon 70-200mm similar to the one Namir Noor-Eldeen held

Legality

• The New yorker has published a legal investigation of the incident, whether the pilots had the right to engage or not: New Yorker legal investigation--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Rules of Engagement

I propose a section evaluating the video in light of the Rules of Engagement in effect at that time, which are available at http://www.collateralmurder.org/en/resources.html.WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 23:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

That would be original research. We should wait for third party sources to evaluate it on those guidelines (like The New Yorker article above). NW (Talk) 23:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Right right. We could expand the New Yorker ROE analysis and put something about the ROE in the title specifically (instead of just "legality", and reference it back to the New Yorker page and the ROE available on Wikileaks.WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 23:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Timeline section

I have commented out the timeline section until a more neutral (less selective) version can be implemented.   — C M B J   23:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem is the full timeline is far too long...maybe someone could extract out the main points of interest and compose a timeline out of them?WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 23:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I simply removed the section. The incident is too intricate to represent fairly with an extracted timeline, so it is better to link the full transcript to the incidents section and write it out in prose, quoting when necessary. NW (Talk) 23:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, it is worth noting that the TimesOnline transcript contains errors. Here is an example:

TimesOnline: "Hey, uh, I need to get the Brads to drop rads I got a wounded little girl we need to take her off the maya."

Original audio: "Hey, uh, I need to get the Brads to drop rads. I got a wounded girl we need to take to Rustamiyah."

If a better source can be located, we should use it instead.   — C M B J   00:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The incident is not too complicated to represent with a timeline and I for one think the addition of a timestamped, sequential list of events adds a lot to the article. If this is unrealistic or incorrect, please explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ButOnMethItIs (talk • contribs) 00:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The way that the section was before, a reader would have inferred that the soldiers involved were cold-blooded murderers on a rampage; however, the complete transcript makes it abundantly clear that the entire incident was an honest mistake—even down to the most controversial of statements. I do not oppose inclusion of a timeline, so long as it does not selectively include hyperbolic, POV-slanted quotes.   — C M B J   00:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

What specifically would improve that timeline? There seems to be a complete absence of detail in this discussion. ButOnMethItIs (talk) 00:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

We need to create our own analytical and apathetic timeline of major events, without the [ab]use of quotations.   — C M B J   01:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, well that clears up everything. 98.71.211.76 (talk) 01:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Factual errors in the Army report?

File:RescueVan.jpg

The Army report states that the van was "black" (Captions to Exhibits F, H, I), yet the color image of the van after the attack shows a (sky-?) bluish van, with possibly a white roof, and white "skirts". Maybe Apacheguy can enlighten us if this is due to the fact that the spectral sensitivity of the gunsight is shifted to the infrared (of course assuming that this information is not restricted)? Do all the other facts in the report hold up? -- Enemenemu (talk) 00:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• The Target Acquisition Designation System is in its 'Day TV' mode during the engagement. In this setting, its acting like a 'simple' telescopic video camera without any thermal imagery. I'm a little surprised that the van isn't lighter in the video, if the full color picture is accurate, and not color/contrast corrected. Source is restricted due to 'For Official Use Only' designation.Apacheguy (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Modified Intro

Whoever modified the intro, it is now in need of references.WhisperingWisdom ^{T C} 00:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Friendly fire or collateral damage?

The lead, which I edited a bit, currently says "... A subsequent investigation of the incident by US forces determined that although the helicopters had engaged a number of armed insurgents, the engagement left two reporters for Reuters dead in an apparent case of friendly fire. ..." However, the Friendly fire article says "... inadvertent harm to non-combatatants[sic] or structures, usually referred to as "collateral damage" is also not considered to be friendly fire. ...", and I'm fairly sure Reuters employees are non-combatants. Perhaps the two articles should be reconciled? --an odd name 00:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Perhaps the distinction is made between enemy civilians and allied civilians?   — C M B J   00:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The video file is biased

The name of the video file is "CollateralMurder". Murder is a crime that needs to be proven in a court of law and I don't think that's happened yet. The name clearly reflects bias. Also, the Author of the video is listed as "US Apache helicopter" when clearly the real author has drastically altered the original feed. This needs to be remedied immediately as it appears that the video is in violation of BLP rules (it gives the impression that the pilots have been convicted of murder and that this might be the conclusion of the US government which is not true). If this isn't fixed, the video file should be removed.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The file itself is unacceptably biased? Because of the file name and the metadata? 98.71.211.76 (talk) 01:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)