Talk:Northeastern United States/Archive 2

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Editing

Can someone edit this page? It seems to have been vandalised..."hello sexy" is throughout the page.

Virginia and Maryland are DEFINITELY NOT part of the Northeast. Virginia is part of the Southeast, and Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state, or border state between North and South. I wouldnt consider D.C. part of the northeast either.

• I disagree, at least with regard to Washington, DC. Though its culture certainly has roots in the South, it is the southern boundary of the BosWash ubermetropolitan area and thus also has a strong connexion with the Northeast.

This page is incredibly poorly written. It needs a lot of help. 69.142.76.165 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes

Native Americans

I fully realize that this is about the official US designation of "New England." But that there is no reference to the Native Americans is quite appalling, not even to mention that many of the names of our states and towns are Indian names. History here begins with the colonials as if everything was tabla rasa.Brosi (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Language, ethnicity, and religion

The tone/quality of this section is pretty good. The problem is that there have been a lot of contributions with slightly different slants, some geographic, others, origin. It really needs to be reorganized somehow. The problem (as you might guess) is there are a heck of a lot of ethnicities to deal with! A bit of a mess right now IMO. Maybe even repetitive or slightly contradictory. There's always "whoops. Forgot these six people from Tibet and eight Aleuts." Don't want to omit anybody. I think conciseness is important here. Accounting for every group in the world is just not possible nor desirable. Student7 (talk) 20:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a statement that Catholics are a "plurality" in the Northeast. This used to be true. In Vermont in 2007, "no religion" came in first ahead of any other religion, including Catholicism. So the general statement is not quite on the money anymore.Student7 (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Voting patterns

It's been a long while since any president got more than 50% of the vote of registered voters. I don't think it happened nationwide in 2008, though selected areas and municipalities may have achieved this. Most regions of the country cannot claim to have captured the "hearts and minds" of the majority of registered voters in it, except maybe Washington DC. So extravagant comments should be avoided IMO.

The main thing the vote shows is the demise of the party system. Student7 (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Overuse of the word "many"

This article, out of many, wins the award, for overuse of the vague "many" used many times without many footnotes. Usually without any footnotes. As an attention grabber it fails from overuse. Many editors should not be trying to "grab" attention IMO. Many footnotes should be used so many readers can draw many conclusions on their own!  :) Student7 (talk) 11:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is Virginia shaded?

Why? The Census has never included VA in the northeast, the EPA never has, AAA never has. Why is Virginia shaded?--Htgrgwwew (talk) 04:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I was about to ask the same question myself. Not even the article claims Virginia is part of the Northeast. It seems that whoever made the map took liberties in applying his own idiosyncratic views. 69.228.104.168 (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Invasion

Zebra Mussels are invading the northeast —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.251.250 (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio

It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast. What's the big deal? I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast. Ohio is certainly a mid-western state. Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast. The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Northeast megalopolis extends through Washington D.C. or even Richmond according to the recent Virginia Tech studies (see megapolitan area) in spite of the difference with traditional cultural definitions. On the other hand, western Pennsylvania and New York are closer to the Midwest in urban connectivity and dialect. (e.g. Inland Northern American English) So the best definition depends on what field you are talking about. --JWB (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I respect your viewpoint, but I must argue that you're pulling at strings. I believe that even taking into account abstract ideas such as "megapolitan areas," most people would not consider cities in southern states, like Richmond, are part of the northeast while western Pennsylvania and New York are mid-western. Upon further thinking, I would actually argue to include Delaware in the northeast region, because it is considered above the Mason-Dixon Line, which has traditionally symbolized a demarcation between the Northern United States and the Southern United States. Again, I could see an argument being made for Maryland, but Virginia is definitely southern-Atlantic. Also, I cannot agree that New York or Pennsylvania could be considered mid-western, especially when Missouri is often considered central mid-west.Xfatmoe (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Megapolitan areas are not "abstract ideas" but rather very concrete analyses of the movement of goods and people within a given area. Even more to the point, if you've lived in and traveled around the Northeast Megalopolis you would know that there are no clear lines where one metro ends and another begins. Trying to separate Baltimore and DC from Philadelphia and NYC is more ludicrous than trying to say that San Diego and LA are in different regions. In any case, I'm not sure what bearing a cultural survey taken 250 years ago (mason-dixon) to delineate attitudes toward slavery has to do with the present day economic and cultural realities. It was done well before the fall of slavery, before the industrial revolution, before the advent of high-speed rail, automobiles and the interstate highway system. Likewise, what does it matter what the Census says about it? The FBI and EPA say something different. The also think that the Virgin Islands are part of the Northeast. Western PA and Western NY have far more in common, culturally and economically, with Ohio and with each other than they do with NYC or Philadelphia. Delaware is clearly part of the Northeast. People there watch TV broadcast from Philadelphia, listen to a lot of radio from Philadelphia, have commuter trains to Philadelphia and New Castle County, where most Delawareans live, is part of the Philadelphia MSA. Metro Baltimore and metro DC, where most Marylanders live, is inextricably linked to the rest of the mid-atlantic. Anyone who has driven on I-95 or taken Amtrak or Megabus or Boltbus or any of the Chinatown buses is acutely aware of this. Even for the best of ears, trying to distinguish a South Jersey accent from a Maryland accent can be impossible. Ancient maps and ideas are just that. The flow of goods and people is what matters and by any measure DE and MD are linked to the northeast much more than to the southeast. While one can make persuasive arguments that parts of Western MD and the Eastern Shore are more culturally southern one can also make persuasive arguments that Northern Virginia counties such as Arlington, Fairfax, Loudon, etc are more culturally mid-atlantic. `69.142.76.165 (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes

I always find this amusing. To me Northeast is synonymous with New England. In other words, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut. If I'm feeling charitable I include New York. Nothing south of New York should be called "North" anything IMHO. That being said, it doesn't really matter what our opinions are, as North East is an established region per the U.S. Census Bureau.

Mattlach (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Maryland is definitely a part of the Northeast. I'm getting sick of the Mason-Dixon line being the end all say all on the division between the two regions. The line was made in the 1700's and was more about a boundary dispute between MD and PA! How is that relative or useful to todays society? Baltimore and Philadelphia are always linked together as very similar cities - and I agree with above - Philly, Baltimore, and S. Jersey dialects are almost identical. If you want to make this article about the census designation, then fine, but take Delaware off the map too. I'm sorry the Eastern Shore of MD has farms, but this doesn't make Maryland a southern state. The culture/geography of the Eastern shore is very tightly similar to rural DE and NJ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The culture of the Eastern Shore is NOTHING like the culture of South Jersey! That is such a ridiculous statement and you have destroyed your credibility. I would like to invite everyone reading to take a trip to Maryland's Eastern shore - spend some time in Harriet Tubman's hometown of Cambridge and perhaps enjoy some crabbing in Crisfield. Then, feel free to explore South Jersey and let me know if the Eastern Shore of Maryland is "Northern". What a ridiculous comment. I am someone who has lived on Maryland's Eastern Shore my whole life and if you came here, I, along with everyone else here, would laugh in your face.

There was never an argument being made for the region of South Jersey to be likened to Maryland's Eastern shore. The term "South Jersey" was specifically NOT used as it encompasses far too large of an area and diversity in culture. When people think South Jersey, they think Philly suburbs and Atlantic City - that is not what I was referencing. The term "rural Jersey" was the intended message. I grew up in St. Micheals and have found that driving down towards Cape May in Jersey is very similar to a trip down Route 50 through Talbot and Dorcester counties - farmlands, marshlands, simple, laid back, and some similar coastal towns. Obviously, nothing compares directly to Chesapeake culture - it's highly unique and precious and I would never pin it as either southern or northern - it is what it is. I agree with you that at first glance the remark "The eastern shore of Maryland is like South Jersey" is a little ridiculous - please remember that was never my argument. However, if I wanted to make that argument, it wouldn't be too difficult - in addition to everything I've already said, Cecil County is a part of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical area, suburb of Philly, as are parts of south Jersey that border on rural areas much like those of the Eastern shore - you'd be surprised how similar Elkton is to other S. Jersey towns, not to mention the South Jersey Shore being just like the stretch from Ocean City, MD up through Rehoboth and Bethany - not a fantastic argument, and I probably wouldn't make it, but it could be done. (You didn't bring this up, but for the record, the argument that Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore are not similar simply cannot be made, Delmarva is Delmarva - obviously less populated as you get down into the Virginia part, but still pretty consistent.) I apologize if I offended you, there is pretty much nothing that can be like the old waterman towns like Tilghman's Island or Deal Island or the dissapearing marshlands of Dorchester county. Places like Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michael's, even up in Chestertown are uniquely Maryland/Chesapeake and I never meant to take away from that. I simply meant to propose the question of why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well.

To those who claim that Pittsburgh has far more in common with the Midwest than the rest of the Northeast, I must respectfully disagree. Many studies including this one from Gastil put Pittsburgh in the same cultural region as South Jersey http://faculty.smu.edu/RKEMPER/anth_3346/ANTH3346_Maps.htm#GASTIL%20NORTHEASTERN%20CULTURAL%20REGIONS. Additionally, the prevalence of row housing in Pittsburgh is a staple of the older coastal cities, including Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC. The very large percentage of Italians (about 16% in the CSA), Catholics and lack of Evangelicals in Pittsburgh, in addition to traditional connections to Philadelphia (e.g. PA canal, Steagles, Pirates-Phillies and Pens-Flyers rivalry) again offer significant evidence that Pittsburgh is more Northeastern. Concerning language issues, most who have studied the Pittsburgh accent recognize that it is more in common with "Highland Southern" accent of W. VA. and other areas of Appalachia than with Midwest (as though either the Midwest or Northeast is a homogeneous region in that respect is absurd). Yet, certain words such as "hoagie" are commonly used in Pittsburgh, Phila. and NJ, but rarely in other parts of the country. Anyone who thinks Pittsburgh is clearly Midwestern should provide actual examples of this and not merely state opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.249.116 (talk) 01:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Major cleanup needed

This article is full of unsourced assertion, opinion, and peacock language. I propose that this article should focus on the census bureau definition (so that statistics can be validated), possibly with some reference to nearby areas that some claim are part of the region (if sourced). Then we can cut down all of the opinion and leave only the statistics and facts that are sourced. Editors can add new sections when they have the RSs to support them. Anybody have thoughts on this? Hoppingalong (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

As part of the cleanup, I propose removing the third paragraph in the lead as irrlevant, original research, and not properly sourced. Here it is:

Other states are sometimes included in the definition of Northeastern United States. The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada.[6] The National Assessment Synthesis Team of the U.S. Global Change Research Program included West Virginia and Maryland in the Northeastern United States in its analysis of climate change in a 2001 report.[7] The same report included Virginia in the Southeastern United States.[8] In a 1961 book, French geographer Jean Gottman described what he called the Northeast megalopolis to include as far south as Washington, D.C. within the megalopolis, though he did not define the Northeastern United States.[9] The Census Bureau classifies Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, as part of the South Atlantic region,[1] part of the Southern United States.

Hoppingalong (talk) 22:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I just removed the paragrph in this edit per this proposal and, in addition, because of the various other objections to including these states on the talk page above. The map is still shaded and should be changed. Hoppingalong (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Non-consensus? Seriously? Your decisions to chop out all the disputed states from the article had [WP:DRNC|equally no consensus]]. As I stated in an edit summary, Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information and should explain the disputed point at which the northeast becomes the south, not just make the Census Bureau the end-all, be-all authority over the article. Different government agencies can't even come to a consensus on where the northeast ends!

If you revert an edit because I need to "discuss first" before editing and can't give a specific reason as to why you reverted, you might be unintentionally owning the article. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 17:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Read this talk page. Looks at the edits made by several editors since and while I was working this material. The paragraph I removed with this edit doesn't even support your desired inclusion of certain states, unless you want to systhesize the various souces that use different definitions (which is OR). Find RS sources that talk about this "dispute" and let's talk about them here. Hoppingalong (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)