Talk:The Black Dahlia Murder (band)

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ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!

I HAVE LISTENED TO EVERYONE OF THEIR SONGS AT LEAST 100 TIMES AND SOME SEVERAL HUNDRED AND KNOW THE LYRICS TO ALL OF THEM BUT THE SHIT FROM DEFLORATE. THEY ARE DEATH METAL. THEY ARE NOT HEAVY METAL. IF YOU DON'T PUT DEATHCORE OR DEATH METAL, JUST PUT FUCKING METAL WHICH CAN MEAN ALL METAL SUBGENRES. SOMEONE PLEASE PUT THAT. IF 'YOU' DO ITS NOT ORIGINAL RESEARCH. FOR GOD SAKES STOP FUCKING GENRE DEBATING LIKE LITTLE FUCKING RETARDS. FOR FUCK'S SAKE 69.146.33.239 (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

INSTEAD OF GENRE DEBATING LIKE RETARDS

Death metal is incredibly fitting. leave it at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrathful God (talk • contribs) 00:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Why don't we just say "TBDM is an Extreme Metal band" and then add a genre section to the article?

96.234.65.135 (talk) 09:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

There's a "style" section which would be the same use as a genre section. Well saying they are an extreme metal band would mean they combine black, death, thrash and sometimes doom metal and they surely don't. A band that would suit that tag well is Cradle of Filth. Leaving it as melodic death metal / metalcore is easier. FireCrystal (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Extreme Metal can be ANY of those genres. And they certainly combine (even if very small) elements of Death, Black, and Thrash.

96.234.65.135 (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

Of course extreme metal can be any of those genres. I really meant to say that extreme metal is an umbrella term for generalizing those genres such as on a band page. Cradle of Filth is hard to define so extreme metal was the best choice. Saying a band is heavy metal when they have subgenres of progressive, thrash, speed, and power metal would be used to generalize their multitude of genres. Though the band's elements of black and thrash is up for debate if any reviewer/etc at all said they had some of those elements. Metalcore is not always associated with extreme metal, while melodic death is but it would still be better to leave it as is. You might get even more people screwing around with it if we used extreme metal so just revert it on spot. Besides a consensus/agreement was reached. FireCrystal (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I understand a consensus was reached, and I (as well as hundreds of other people) completely, 100% disagree with the verdict. TBDM is not a metalcore band. They sound like a Gothenburg Melodeath band. Their DEMOS were metalcore. So if anything the opening sentence should not have metalcore in it, and them we put "Metalcore (earlier works)" in the infobox. The only reason we're at such a debate is because of danteferno. He never adds anything to an artice. HE ALWAYS just fucks up a perfectly fine article. (This isn't the first time he went trigger-happy with metalcore on an article.) Oh and before you guys start whining "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS", I'm not making a personal attack. I'm just stating a fact.

96.234.65.135 (talk) 06:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

I have removed "metalcore" and "melodic death metal" from the genres section for the time being. This is not due to any personal feelings I have on the band or their music: I've actually never much listened to them. I removed them because they were given with non reliable sources: one was metal blade, and a band's own label is not a reliable source on their genre; the other was an interview with "Way Too Loud". Whether such a source could be considered reliable at all is debatable, and in this case it certainly can't for "metalcore", because only the band themselves use that term, and even then jokingly. If anyone wants to add more genres, do it with good sources please. I realise there has been significant debate on the genre already; however, I can't bring myself to trawl through so many trolls/flames/personal attacks to find the occasional solid message. If sources were turned up in the discussion here, all you have to do is put them onto the page itself. Prophaniti (talk) 23:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

THEY'RE NOT METALCORE!!!

And I'm removing the metalcore genre since the source is invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.252.190 (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The genre debate is an old topic and consensus has already been reached, so your disagreement is irrelevant. In addition, removing referenced sources is blanking, a form of WP:VANDALISM. --Danteferno (talk) 16:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, consensus can change. We don't have to model ourselves off the IPCC soapbox.--WaltCip (talk) 18:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

True, consensus can change, but there's been no new information provided to justify a change. Unfortunately, it's still anon/auto-confirmed accounts blanking citations and trying to push their POV, and trying to use the same, "OMG, if the band says they R not metalcore, they R NoT metalcore!" argument, which hasn't held any water from day one. Bottom line: there's no dispute here, just POV pushing/blanking/vandalism, and that's one of the reasons the page was protected for a second time. --Danteferno (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think the members of a band would know what they play. And anyway, how much of Black Dahlia Murder's music have you heard? yes (talk) 00:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't it removed yet? It's still on their. And for any one that doesn't think they're Melodic Death metal just go watch an interview on you tube with Trevor. He clearly states that they are MELODIC DEATH METAL. He evan mentioned how it would piss him off when people would call them metalcore<--9/15/2009-->

Genre box

(2FireCrystal) I am confused as to why you're confused? Is it because of the long-running genre disagreement? or is it that you don't feel a genre box in a band's article who plays within that genre is appropriate? But then, why would you think that?  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  21:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The genre debate is irrelevant here so lets look at it with this point of view: ever seen a featured band article with one? FireCrystal (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

A featured band article with a genre box? Well, no. Guess we never will. Of course a good point in your favor might be that a band like this one covers more than one specific genre, so perhaps you're right.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  05:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, genre boxes shouldn't be anywhere else but on an article about a music genre. FireCrystal (talk) 05:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

apparent genre debate?

so loads of talk about the concensus that was reached in some debate, alot of good it is if noone can see the debate to know why this was agreed. and in my opinion the sources for metalcore is a load of shite.The-deejjj (talk) 14:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC) surfing around i can find only good sources for death metal and deathcore, revolver and metal hammer, but nothing reliable for metalcoreThe-deejjj (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Genre debate

so...like The-deej said, apparently there was a consensus on the genre debate? To add my opinion, I cannot see in any way how TBDM can be called a metalcore band. I have listened to basically all their stuff and it seems apparent that they are death metal. Metalcore isn't as aggressive/intense (better wording?) and also includes clean vocals. Example of metalcore bands are All That Remains, Trivium, As I Lay Dying, early Avenged Sevenfold, Demon Hunter, The Devil Wears Prada, Killswitch Engage, Protest the Hero, etc. Death metal sounds like DevilDriver, At the Gates, Here Comes the Kraken, In Flames, Behemoth, Echovirus, early All That Remains etc. Now, which does TBDM sound more like? cheese (talk) 23:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

You didn't know there was an archives section in the talk page? [[1]]. One example from that crazy archive (where several trolls/derelicts of Wikipolicy didn't get their way) User talk:Kameejl provided excellent rationale for the metalcore labeling of TBDM:

• reliable sources state they are metalcore
• the band agrees they have hardcore influences
• band members play/have played in (other) death-/metalcore bands
• they will tour/have toured with death metal/metalcore hybrid bands (The Red Chord, Job for a Cowboy, Lynchmada and others). Again, what a band "sounds like" is POV. I could say Dimmu Borgir sound like gothic metal because they use symphonics - doesn't make it true. --Danteferno (talk) 00:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok...thanks for giving me the points but: first death metal is technically "hardcore" unless you mean hardcore punk. Second, the types of bands that they play in doesn't make that their other bands genre (for example Tim McIlrath of Rise Against was in a metalcore band. That doesn't make Rise Against's genre metalcore). Third, the bands that they tour with doesn't define their genre (e.g. All That Remains once toured with Divine Heresy, a melodic death metal band, while touring in support of their album The Fall of Ideals). cheese (talk) 03:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Hardcore influences" obviously meant hardcore punk influences. TBDM's frontman admitted to such influences in an interview, and that the way they carry themselves is "more punk". And yes, bands/genres a group cites as influences and tours with says much about what genre(s) a group belongs to. (And btw, one of Divine Heresy's genres is cited as deathcore, not just melodic death metal. In fact, more sources on the page point to deathcore.) Even Metal Blade (TBDM's own record label) promoted TBDM as "hardcore-influenced death metal". Such a descriptor is not going to be used on any "solid" death metal band. Now change back to "heavy metal/metalcore" or just "American band" on the opening paragraph, this dispute doesn't need 3P comment or admin intervention, it's just you pushing POV. --Danteferno (talk) 04:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

So like i said...you never see articles with multiple genres at the beginning, and even if you did, all would be included not just one. All are in the infobox. It is pointless to add them especially when heavy metal relates to the others. Just leave it. cheese (talk) 23:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"Heavy metal" and "metalcore" are related, but wholly separate. One's a genre, and one's a combination genre. There are two separate articles. It looks like admin intervention will be at hand, it's unfortunate POV pushing is your rationale of debate. --Danteferno (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

How is this not debating??? And yes, I know there are two separate articles. But you don't see other people saying "TBDM IS A HEAVY METAL/MELODIC DEATH METAL/DEATHCORE/METALCORE BAND." That is because it's really not needed. It is all in the infobox, not the beginning of the article. And the citation I removed went to an error on the site when I clicked on it. Also, just to let you know, you are the only one saying that they are metalcore... cheese (talk) 23:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

"Also, just to let you know, you are the only one saying that they are metalcore..." The edit history and talk page history doesn't corroborate with that claim. --Danteferno (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Adding on...examples of other articles:Trivium - doesn't say thrash metal/metalcore, In Flames - doesn't say melodic death metal/alternative metal (which is present in their later albums), Becoming the Archetype - doesn't say death metal/metalcore/progressive metal, The Ascendicate - doesn't say Metalcore/alternative metal, Slipknot - doesn't say nu metal/alternative metal, etc. An example outside of metal is Linkin Park - doesn't say nu metal/alternative rock. I don't see why TBDM's article would be any different and have two genres at the beginning when a list of their genres is in the infobox, like i've been saying. cheese (talk) 00:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

K, the source "http://www.musicmight.com/artist/united+states/michigan/detroit/the+black+dahlia+murder" leads to an error page, if it is to stay up, surealy a nw RELIABLE source must be found.The-deejjj (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is disgraceful

• cough* BDM is not metalcore

That aside, let me focus on the source that apparently justifies calling this band metalcore. To be honest, the reference does not mention anything at all about the band. How it is being used as a good source is beyond me. I would not believe it at all if somebody were to say that they really looked hard to find a good reference to justify calling them this incorrect genre.

Furthermore, the fact that the #2 and #4 references are the EXACT SAME THING just shows to me that there really was no thought put into this whole genre thing.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

---

The Black Dahlia Murder → The Black Dahlia Murder (band) — The Black Dahlia murder was the brutal murder of Elizabeth Short. The band should really be moved for specification. The Black Dahlia murder has been the result for several film and book adaptations, along with several references to the murder. (see here). --Krazycev 13 ^{other crap} 21:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Also if there is a consensus to rename the redirect Black Dahlia Murder should be retargted as well.--76.71.213.208 (talk) 22:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose (and not because WP:ILIKEIT, I actually didn't like their latest album. What are the chances that somebody would search "The Black Dahlia Murder" and want to go to the Elizabeth Short case? Black Dahlia already redirects there. And in any case The Black Dahlia Murder would not be grammatically correct as a redirect to the murder case, as "murder" wouldn't be capitalized. If anything The Black Dahlia murder and Black Dahlia murder should (be created and) redirect to the Elizabeth Short case. I'm listing something on that talkpage so that watchers of the Black Dahlia murder article can voice their opinion as well. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 23:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
• Support - There should be two disambiguation pages. One with the title The Black Dahlia that incorporates Black Dahlia, Black Dahlia murder and Elizabeth Short, which redirect to Black Dahlia and point to the article about the murder and Elizabeth Short and offers "For the band, see The Black Dahlia Murder (band)". The other disambiguation page with the title The Black Dahlia Murder that includes The Black Dahlia Murder (band) and The Black Dahlia Murder and offers "For the article about the murder and Elizabeth Short, see Black Dahlia." Basically, it's not nearly as germane to grammar as it is to clarifying which is which. You can't be sure that the passing reader will realize that capitalization matters. Offering two disambiguation pages that cover the scope of titles that pertain to each entity. This may also minimize the number of people who pop over to the article about Elizabeth Short and think it necessary to add the band to that page. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• Support popular name of the murder should redirect to a murder article, or the article where the information is contained. Optionally, redirect to a dab page, since there's also a movie. 65.94.252.195 (talk) 03:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

They are nothing but melodic death metal!

The don't play metalcore or deathcore. They're straight melo-death. They have not so much melody or clean vocals, so that makes them not metalcore. Deathcore is almost like death metal, it has way more down-tuned guitars with growls. That makes TBDM not even deathcore. They're simply a heavy band with some melody once in a while and mostly pitch up vocals, the definition of melodic death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.217.193 (talk) 16:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• One full year of consensus says that you're incorrect.--WaltCip (talk) 15:39, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Three reliable sources stating the oposite says you're incorrect. • GunMetal Angel 02:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

---Just because a source says this band is metalcore or deathcore doesn't mean it's correct. Anyone that know ANYTHING about death metal, metalcore, or deathcore knows this band is straight up melodic death metal. It is a fact. Just because Trevor says some metalcore bands are good and he likes the way the hardcore community is doesn't mean BDM are metalcore or deathcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XhawkingX (talk • contribs) 03:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

We know that, or at least anyone with half a brain does, it does not matter though, because wikipedia works through reliable and varifiable sourcing. Meaning that if a reliable and varifiable source says that they are "core" then they are as far as wikipedia is concerned. 173.59.227.146 (talk) 13:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the real fans almost unanimously agree that there is nothing -core about TBDM. There is not a single aspect of any of their music that has anything in common with hardcore or metalcore. No breakdowns, very little growled vocals, and the speed and tempo and melody are almost entirely characteristic of melodic death metal. I also don't see why the band's own genre definition of themselves as such doesn't count as a "verifiable"/"reliable" source. In my opinion, what the band says they play is THE most reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.250.129.168 (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but the problem with using themselves as a source, is that it's first party. Not a third party source, which under guidlines give priority, as it were, too third party sources. 108.15.17.159 (talk) 18:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)