Talk:Plotinus

Plotinus is categorized as an astrologer, while he was opposed to astrology. (Later neoplatonists were much more in favor of it.) See http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/neoplato.htm#SSH3a.i

Plotinus and the gnostics

I've noticed that someone removed the section on the identification of Plotinus' opponents. I've reinserted it with more referential info, and I've made the phrasing more tentative so as to adhere more to NPOV - I've also added a reference to the gnosticism article, which has a much more extensive discussion of the issue. If anyone has a problem with it as it stands, please discuss it here before simply reverting it. Visual Error 00:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Plotinus and the gnostics

I've noticed that you have tried to minimize what Plonitus has stated about the Gnostics. I provided sources to my comments made on this entry. I have extended the biblo with the books of those sources. Each source stating that Plonitus attacked the Gnostics. You have instead made an unverifiable alligation that his works where not harsh nor his stance. You have instead went against another of your own sources, Michael Allen Williams even validates that Plonitus attacked the Gnostics. Please provide a list of scholars who are Neoplatonic and who I can verify that state clearly that it is a misconception that Plotinus was not a vociferous opponent of Gnosticism (if not then you are reverting to POV). Please provide sources that he agreed with their depiction of the demiurge. That he agreed with them on anything. The very statement is POV. You claim speculation and conjecture validate a complete rewriting of a historically held interruption. I have given a list and have re-added it to this entry. Please respect the idea that scholars like Pagels and Morton Smith are not considered unbiased sources. http://www.christian-apologetics.org/html/Manuscripts%20and%20linencloths.htm

//It is a popular misconception (one then held by scholars Stephen McKenna, Robert T Wallis, N. Joseph Torchia, Dr Christos Evangeliou [1], Francisco Garcia Bazan [2]) that Plotinus was a vociferous opponent of Gnosticism, and the ninth tractate in his second Ennead "Against Those that Affirm the Creator of the Kosmos and the Kosmos Itself to Be Evil" is typically presented as "Against the Gnostics" (title taken from Stephen McKenna's translations). Even though the word γνωσθήσετσι ("the Gnostics") only occurs once in the entire tract. //

I also find it odd that the tract from Plotinus is directly referring to the "gnostic" Kosmology and yet you appear to not understand the text. It starts by clarifing the original of the source or one and then clarifing the source or the one as the origin of the Demiurge. This is clearly against the idea of a fallen or stupid demiurge, ignorant of its origin in the source or one. Since with Plotinus the two are in "harmony" not in conflict.

Here is a Plotinus critism on the concept Sophia/Wisdom as separate from the source/primordial/supreme mind -"it would be absurd to imagine any such unconsciousness in the Authentic Intelligence; the knowing principle must be one and the selfsame with that which knows of the knowing. The contrary supposition would give us two beings, one that merely knows, and another separate being that knows of the act of knowing."

The answer Plotinus gives " No: The Divine Mind in its mentation thinks itself" and again "To increase the Primals by making the Supreme Mind engender the Reason-Principle, and this again engender in the Soul a distinct power to act as mediator between Soul and the Supreme Mind, this is to deny intellection to the Soul,"

If you mean the editing of the article that you [on the first of February] then it seems only fair that your edit drastically reduced the content concerning Plotinus and the Gnostics. Though this in itself is not a bad thing, it is suspect when that reduction happens at the same time as a complete alteration of the meaning of the section - from providing information referring to a textual source concerning the difficulty of identifying Plotinus' opponents in this debate, to simply stating their identity. I've noticed that you made several edits changing and adapting the meaning of the text prior to this.

In any case, I've revisited the article and, as far as I could, removed all trace of bias in the relevant section. I've also added a great deal of content, whch hopefully gives more detailed account: the central point of this section is no longer that Plotinus' opponents weren't gnostic, but that it is difficult to identify them as much more than 'early Christian'. Hopefully this will improve matters. However, perhaps this section of the article is getting too long and overbearing - I'll make a note below re: possible separation.

I will finally note that though such sources as Smith, Pagels, Layton and their ilk might be biased (though I think this unlikely) they remain respected sources concerning ancient Christianity and its historical milieu, and as such are better sources than the older text, which features none at all. You are also, of course, aware that Sophia makes an appearance in a lot of non-gnostic texts, including Clement of Alexandria and the Wisdom songs - as such, mention of it by Plotinus doesn't direlty point to gnosticism.Visual Error 13:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

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Edit, yes because Plotinus and NeoPlatonicism are more then simply a refutation of, or a force, in the era of Gnosticism. You seem to not understand Plotinus. Please confirm that you have read the sources you mention including Plotinus' section mention here..As for me yes I have. I also have Lawrences work as well as MacKenna's. I also have the other books I listed in the reference or biblo section. Where are you sources? And yes I can get down to edition, number and page. If you feel uncomfortable email any of the these people I mentioned above like Dr Christos Evangeliou [1], Francisco Garcia Bazan. They are still alive and available online. Even better involve them here.

There is a passage at the beginning of Rethinking Gnosticisms (since you picked up on this source) that states that people have taken liberties with the term gnostic so much that now everything and everyone is gnostic. Plotinus and Neoplatonics where as much a force that caused the decline of Gnosticism as early christianity was. The tract is a testimonal to that.

As for your edits they have been misleading and biased stating MANY scholars had such a misconception, that Plotinus was not critizing gnostics like the Valentians or the common held Demiurge kosmologies of the Gnostic groups of Plotinus' era but was instead directing this tract to early christianity. Or that the title contributed to Plotinus' works is dubious. POV based on conspiracy theories have no place here. If you want to engage in debate there are plenty of places other then here.

Here what you are doing is revisitionist and it flies in the face of scholars I have already added in the biblo/references. This of course means that you need to add sources for the "great deal of content" you have added. I have yet to see any such information from you. Post what scholars stated that because Plotinus did not state "gnostics" that he was referring to early christians. Include the books so I can track down where the drastic rewrite of history was disclosed. Post what scholars stated that McKenna or Porphsys "added" the //title against the Gnostics// to Plotinus' work against Plotinus or against the message of the tract.

I find it hard to accept the scholars you mention because they have been accused by other scholars of not being scholarly. Smith has been accused of fabrication (as most Gnostics where in ancient history). And as for Sophia. Clement NEVER stated that Sophia was an entity separate from the source/primordial/supreme mind. Once again please provide a source where he stated that. Since only Gnostic instead of Greeks can now use Greek words. I guess they should rename Hagia Sophia since Greeks can't say gnostic and mean knowledge or Sophia and mean wisdom. Instead the words now only mean what these small sophist sects said they mean exclusively. 00:13 3 February 2006

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However, the supposition made in such a claim, that orthodox christianity and gnosticism were completely separate and distinct traditions in the 3rd century, is open to challenge. The Council of Nicaea, which both established the legal status of orthodox Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and formalised the scriptural canon which was its basis, was held by Emperor Constantine in 325, over half a century after Plotinus' death.

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Also this is a web based Encyclopedia. If you continue to post completely inaccurate history I would hope that someone here would consider not allowing you to post.

To start the Biblical Canon of the New Testament was accepted at the 3rd Synod of Carthage 397 by then Constantine long dead and the empire redivided. Not the council of Nicaea where the creed or declaration of faith was created and accepted. Second Constantine was the founder of the Eastern Roman Empire- Byzantium not the Western Empire both he controlled as the Pagan Emperor of both not christian. Constantine founded Byzantium to unify the two empires after a civil war with Licinius the emporer of the east. Emperor Constantine did not become a christian until the day of his death. Constantine legalize christianity but never made it the the official religion of the Roman Empire. Paganism remained the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium until Theodosius I. In the case of making Christianity the state religion over paganism you can thank Arbogast and Valentinian II for that. The Western Empire AKA Europe remained pagan and christian under Valentinian I and his sons and so on and so forth (Arius/Arianism or otherwise) until Charlemagne c800 AD. Roman Emperors and List of Roman Emperors.

I've updated the information that you provided concerning the 3rd Synod - thanks for clarifying me on that - it improves the article. Obliquely, it also raises the point I focussed upon: my intention was not to demonstrate that Gnostic sects were not the target of Plotinus' arguments, but rather that any identification of them as being more than 'early Christian' in a modern sense was fraught with difficulty. Not least of these difficulties is the fact of the formalisation of orthodox Christianity itself long after Plotinus' death. Given that Christianity prior to this - as the Layton quote explains - was a fluid entity of composed of disparate sects and groups, how may we so confidently ascribe an identity - itself formulating almost entirely from a modern perspectiv - to Plotinus opponents, particularly when it is remembered that he viewed Christianity from the exterior, as a Platonist?

I don't have time to go into a full, in-depth discussions (tis the weekend, after all) - but I still think that the text I have provided is supplies more information than the previous, abbreviated paragraph vaguely identifying Plotinus' intentions without even a discussion of the text's formation, contents or difficulties concerning translation. I'll be back to put up a more extended argument when I can. And if there's a problem with POV, by all means put a tag up, and if that perception is upheld by a greater consensus then I'll be more than happy to remove the text in question myself. Visual Error 14:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

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"I've updated the information that you provided concerning the 3rd Synod - thanks for clarifying me on that - it improves the article." Unobliquely it shows that you don't know what you are talking about and that you should not be on this website reverting other peoples' contributions. It also shows you to be intellectually lazy and dishonest. That you are insisting that other people do your work for you and your research before you will remove your sophisms.

On one hand you say "my intention was not to demonstrate that Gnostic sects were not the target of Plotinus' arguments, but rather that any identification of them as being more than 'early Christian' in a modern sense was fraught with difficulty."

but then say in the posted article that surfaces under Plotinus' name...

"It is a popular view that Plotinus was an opponent of Gnosticism- Despite this, it remains that there is little evidence from the text that definitively identifies Plotinus' intended opponents during the formation of this tract:

So you once again state that his opponents where not the Gnostics that we just can't tell from the actual text who they are, specifically- (I will address the text towards the end of my post).

Hey you seem like a fan of speculation. Since your contribution to Plotinus is to make his work ambigious and confusing even at the expense of stating that his Pagan/Neoplatonic student Porphsys' label is the only thing that identifies his work as being anti gnostic (which is to ASSUME that such a thing is wrong, inaccruate, inappropriate). If not why mention it? Well what if because Plotinus was not specific enough in his writing by attaching a modern label to a group of "Valentinians" or "Barbelos" that Porphsys added the label for clarification. Note Porphsys knew who the christians were and critised them he's famous for it. Plotinus and Porshys knew the difference. Your POV that you are stating as a fact about Plotinus on this encyclopedia webpage is that Plotinus and Porshsys did not know who they where critizing or they where being ambigious when they produced the Enneads.

Once again almost your entire contribution is POV. You are ignoring the valid points I have made. Including that you made several mistakes about someone as well known about as Emperor Constantine. Nothing you stated in the above can be confirmed by any documentation from Plotinus's, Porphsys', Proclus, Iamblichus' writings or from other writing from that period. So any sources passed that are second hand and you have yet to name any second hand sources either. The text as we have it has the label "Against the Gnostics" this contribution is supposed to be by Porphsys but no one has ever remarked that any part of the Enneads was suspicious, any of the remaining Neoplatonics even down to George Gemistos Plethon. None stated that the label was inaccruate in being labelled by Plotinus or Porphsys as being incorrect or misleading. None stated that Plotinus' target was early christianity instead of "gnostics".

Rather you find the label inadequate, suspect or a fallacy, it is not something to be debated on this website under the entry of Plotinus and his life. The overwelhming philosophical scholars and the traditions of Greece have estiblished this as it is. You have yet to post sources. You have yet to do anything but make POV like "the TEXT does not support that Plotinus was referring to Gnostics , specifically".

The text is very clear..Your entire argument is a sophism and does not belong here under the bio of Plotinus. I think this entire fiasco is a really good example of just how a couple of people on the web can post any speculation they can fabricate to undermind a historical fact they don't like and then force it to be accepted as fact or ignore when people point out how dubious what they state is. Or try to obfuscate someone like Plotinus' work. Of course this is the biggest complaint from most people about wikipedia. You post on here that Plotinus was no critic or advisery to "gnostics", but was an a critic of early christianity and has been misunderstood for all these past almost 2ooo years.

Know here's an example of POV based on I can only guess as ignorance.

"The matter becomes still more complicated when it is recognised that much of Plotinus' objections are as pertinent to early 'orthodox' Christian theoretics as to 'gnostic' ones. For example, Plotinus’ specific objection to his opponents' conception of matter (from which the tract's title derives) lies not in their negative assessment of it, but in their expectation of a material universe superior to the existent one:"

From the Enneads on the Plato's demiurge.....

  "They are in fact quite outside of the truth in their

identification of the Creator."

and

"In every way they misrepresent Plato's theory as to the method of creation as in many other respects they dishonour his teaching: they, we are to understand, have penetrated the Intellectual Nature, while Plato and all those other illustrious teachers have failed."

So how does Plotinus clarify who they are? These people wrong about Plato's creator. Well.....

"This All that has emerged into life is no amorphous structure- like those lesser forms within it which are born night and day out of the lavishness of its vitality- the Universe is a life organized, effective, complex, all-comprehensive, displaying an unfathomable wisdom. How, then, can anyone deny that it is a clear image, beautifully formed, of the Intellectual Divinities?"

Knowledge (gnosis), too; in their unbroken peace, what hinders them from the intellectual grasp of the God-Head and the Intellectual Gods? What can be imagined to give us a wisdom higher than belongs to the Supernals? Could anyone, not fallen to utter folly, bear with such an idea?

Admitting that human Souls have descended under constraint of the All-Soul, are we to think the constrained the nobler? Among Souls, what commands must be higher than what obeys. And if the coming was unconstrained, why find fault with a world you have chosen and can quit if you dislike it?

Not one only kind of being is bent upon this quest, which brings bliss to whatsoever achieves, and earns for the others a future destiny in accord with their power. No man, therefore, may flatter himself that he alone is competent; a pretension is not a possession; many boast though fully conscious of their lack and many imagine themselves to possess what was never theirs and even to be alone in possessing what they alone of men never had.

And now finally......

10. Under detailed investigation, many other tenets of this school- indeed we might say all- could be corrected with an abundance of proof. But I am withheld by regard for some of our own friends who fell in with this doctrine before joining our circle and, strangely, still cling to it. The school, no doubt, is free-spoken enough- whether in the set purpose of giving its opinions a plausible colour of verity or in honest belief- but we are addressing here our own acquaintances, not those people with whom we could make no way. We have spoken in the hope of preventing our friends from being perturbed by a party which brings, not proof- how could it?- but arbitrary, tyrannical assertion; another style of address would be applicable to such as have the audacity to flout the noble and true doctrines of the august teachers of antiquity. That method we will not apply; anyone that has fully grasped the preceding discussion will know how to meet every point in the system. Only one other tenet of theirs will be mentioned before passing the matter; it is one which surpasses all the rest in sheer folly, if that is the word. They first maintain that

 the Soul and a certain "Wisdom" Sophia declined and entered this lower sphere though

 they leave us in doubt of whether the movement originated in Soul or in this Sophia of theirs, 

or whether the two are the same to them- then they tell us that the other Souls came down in the descent and that these members of Sophia took to themselves bodies, human bodies, for example.

Yet in the same breath, that very Soul which was the occasion of descent to the others is declared not to have descended. "It knew no decline,"

 but merely illuminated the darkness in such a way that an image of it was formed upon the Matter.

Then, they shape an image of that image somewhere below- through the medium of Matter or ofMateriality or whatever else of many names they choose to give it in their frequent change of terms, invented to darken their doctrine- and

 so they bring into being what they call the Creator or Demiurge,
 then this lower is severed from his Mother [Sophia]and
 becomes the author of the Kosmos 

down to the latest of the succession of images constituting it.

   Such is the blasphemy of one of their writers.

/////////////////////////////////////////////

"Plotinus' arguments, but rather that any identification of them as being more than 'early Christian' in a modern sense was fraught with difficulty. Not least of these difficulties is the fact of the formalisation of orthodox Christianity itself long after Plotinus' death. Given that Christianity prior to this - as the Layton quote explains - was a fluid entity of composed of disparate sects and groups, how may we so confidently ascribe an identity - itself formulating almost entirely from a modern perspectiv - to Plotinus opponents, particularly when it is remembered that he viewed Christianity from the exterior, as a Platonist? "

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Now what early flux group of christians attacked Plato's demirge? Clearly naming it and calling it by Plato's name for it (from Timaeus)? 1.What orthodox christian group taught about Sophia as a deity making the demiurge? Please clarify. 2.What group individual parties, groups, sect or denominations other then Gnostics could Plotinus be referring to? 3.Please explain how from what Plotinus stated clearly in the text posted above that you think it justified to interject a false history of Constantine? 4.Of revert postings? 5.Explain please please please explain how you having had to read at least this section of the Enneads feel justified in posting what you have about Plotinus? 6.How did you miss the part about Sophia? and the Plato's demiurge? 7.Why did you remain insistent? 8.How could you have read Plotinus and feel justified to make other people that have read him have to then track down and post what should be obvious to you here. 9.There is no theology in St Ignatius of Antioch that speaks of Plato's demiurge nor the deity Sophia creating Plato's demiurge. NONE. Nor in any other early christianity other then the Gnosistics. 10.Gnosticism owns this perversion exclusively. It is the identity it owns. 11. So Gnostics that professed the belief in Sophia her creation of the demiurge now represent the "Greek orthodox church"? Really how so? and what does that have to do with Plotinus?

Tell me if someone for whatever reason decided to attack your religion and try to undermind it by fabricating documents and engaging in false teachings- What would you do to correct the problem? Plotinus here wrote this section of the Enneads. To address the liberties and fabrications and distortions that the Gnostics did to Plato. Hey maybe we can then argue over Ennead V iii. You know, you Plotinus scribe you- On the Gnostic Hypostasis and Beyond.

When Irenaeus wrote his text he spoke of people with "false teachings"

he designated some of them by how they justified these false teachings. The group referred to by Irenaeus as Gnostic is this same group. Meaning they had secret knowledge that justified them engaging in "false teachings". Plotinus is writing about a group of so designated "Gnostics" because of the groups perversion of Plato's demiurge and Plato's Kosmology. Two very different reasons to refer to these teachings and those that espouse them as "Gnostics". But they are the same group of people just the same. This group was disowned by the philosophers and the christians. Christians who unfortunately had to then defend themselves against fabricated and false documents that did not ailgn with what they had been taught for centuries via the traditions of the church. But that is the subject of somewhere else other then a encyclopedia BIO of Plotinus.

Now for a modern example of treachoory.....

http://users.erols.com/solequis/secret_societies/phoneymasonry.htm

Nice job working to undermind Plotinus on defending Plato's demiurge and Plato's kosmology from the cultists. Nice what homage to him in his own Bio none the less.

So how do I contest this to a higher level? Who is it that I need to get in touch with over there at wikipedia?

Since this constitutes what appears to be the wikipedia way? You know fabricate and speculate about how people can't tell the difference between christians and gnostics when they are ridliculing them for lying and misrepresenting their philosophy or religion? Even when they explicately clarify what group they are talking about. Call them by name (which then means there was an unfounded conspiracy by students to give that name) and then when that wasn't enough. To actually attach the names and terms that the slanders used to try and undermind the acedemy. But then deny the entire time that such a distinctions were ever made. WOW.

I say let me rewrite the Plotinus post. I promise I will make sure to include what Plotinus said specifically. I promise I will address WHY he was attacking the gnostics.

Oh wait here maybe....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents

end of posting 198.254.16.201 Feb 05 06 05:00am

I went ahead and sent a copy of your entry as well as pdfs of the pages I quote to your professors there at Durham..

john.barclay@durham.ac.uk, d.w.brown@durham.ac.uk, douglas.davies@durham.ac.uk, andrew.louth@durham.ac.uk, philip.sheldrake@durham.ac.uk, robert.song@durham.ac.uk, l.t.stuckenbruck@durham.ac.uk

Maybe they can explain where you get this idea that it is OK to completely misrepresent Plotinus and McKenna and A. H. Lawrence.

Feb 06 06 21:33

Separate article?

I've just added a load of content concerning the plotinus vs. gnosticism debate, in response to a reversion and some criticism. However, though I think the section content is okay now, I think it dominates the article too much. Perhaps a separate article under 'Ennead 2.9'? or 'Against the Gnostics' would work better, which could be linked from the Plotinus page? Anyone think so? Visual Error 13:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I say leave it here. If the article gets too big, it can be moved. — goethean ॐ 22:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep here. The article isn't too long, and is probably still in its early stages of development. It has improved quite a lot in the last few months, and will attract others as it expands. Eventually, I'm sure a lot of the philosophical content will be hived off to separate articles, but for the time being it's a good idea to keep Plotinus/Neo-Platonism/Gnosticism going on one page.--shtove 11:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense - I'll remove the split tag. Visual Error 14:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)