Talk:Ventureño language: Difference between revisions

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For more information

For more information, you may contact Mr. T. Henry at chumash-at-timhenry-dot-org. A scholar by the name of Kenneth Whistler has also researched this language extensively. Contact information for him cannot be found at this time.

Page name

By Wikipedia convention, language articles usually have the name "X language", especially if the name of the language is an adjective or if the ethnic group speaking the language is known by the same name. If the tribe who spoke Ventureño are/were also called the Ventureño, then this article should be moved to Ventureño language. —An gr 05:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and moved it. There were already some incoming links to it anyway. —An gr 05:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Number system

Should mention that this language has possibly the most clearly attested base 4 counting system. I added something to Quaternary numeral system... AnonMoos (talk) 11:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Table Changes

Postalveolar and palatal places of articulation are different. It is important to distinguish both places when a language has consonants at each, whether or not there are contrasting consonants with the same manner of articulation at both places. (See Ladefoged and Maddieson 1996 "The Sounds of the World's Languages" for a detailed description of all places of articulation.) It is important to distinguish between these two places for the following reasons:

(1) Some indigenous languages of the Americas DO have true palatal stops, such as Sierra Popoluca, and it obscures facts to list postalveolar (a.k.a. palatoalveolar) stops and affricates as palatal in languages where that is not the case

(2) The English 'esh' ('sh' as in 'ship') is not palatal; it is postalveolar (palatoalveolar). To list other languages as having an 'sh' sound at a different place of articulation makes them appear unnecessarily (and inaccurately) exotic.

(3) There are well-known languages with both postalveolar and true palatal fricatives -- compare German 'fisch' with 'ich'!

(4) There are languages with palatal, postalveolar, alveolar, and dental consonants (fricatives, affricates, stops) contrasting, such as White Hmong

Deseretian (talk) 17:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You bring up some excellent points, Deseretian. I would also add, in regards to Ventureño specifically, that there is one very significant reason to not include the palatal approximant with post-alveolar consonants. Or, rather, collapse the entire palatal place of articulation with the post-alveolar.

In Chumashan languages, the alveolar and post-alveolar fricatives and affricates participate in a phenomenon known as sibilant harmony (I won't go into the specifics of the harmony system here, but information on it can readily be found). There is even significant free variation between the two places of articulation outside of sibilant harmony. This indicates, on a phonological level, that the alveolar and post-alveolar places of articulation are closely related, and, to a certain extent, even interchangeable (although minimal pairs can easily be found that, on some level, the two places of articulaiton represent distinct phonemes).

At the same time, the dorsal fricative shows variation in place of articulation. In the Harrington data, one can find notes showing the pronunciation being anywhere from a palatal place of articulation to a uvualar place of articulation. This dorsal fricative indicates that the palatal, velar, and uvular places of articulation are all, for fricatives, closely related, and, to the extent of the phonological system, interchangeable.

Since the palatal approximant [j] shows no variation in place of articualtion outside of the palatal region, there is no indication that it has any affiliation with either the post-alveolar or velar places of articulation. Since any other place-of-articulation relationship is indeterminant, there is no good reason to include [j] with the post-alveolars over the velars, and vice versa. To that end, it is best to leave [j] in it's own place of articulation.

@@ Line 30: / Line 30: @@
 :You bring up some excellent points, Deseretian. I would also add, in regards to Ventureño specifically, that there is one very significant reason to not include the palatal approximant with post-alveolar consonants. Or, rather, collapse the entire palatal place of articulation with the post-alveolar.
-In Chumashan languages, the alveolar and post-alveolar fricatives and affricates participate in a phenomenon known as sibilant harmony (I won't go into the specifics of the harmony system here, but information on it can readily be found). There is even significant free variation between the two places of articulation outside of sibilant harmony. This indicates, on a phonological level, that the alveolar and post-alveolar places of articulation are closely related, and, to a certain extent, even interchangeable (although minimal pairs can easily be found that, on some level, the two places of articulaiton represent distinct phonemes).
+:In Chumashan languages, the alveolar and post-alveolar fricatives and affricates participate in a phenomenon known as sibilant harmony (I won't go into the specifics of the harmony system here, but information on it can readily be found). There is even significant free variation between the two places of articulation outside of sibilant harmony. This indicates, on a phonological level, that the alveolar and post-alveolar places of articulation are closely related, and, to a certain extent, even interchangeable (although minimal pairs can easily be found that, on some level, the two places of articulaiton represent distinct phonemes).
-At the same time, the dorsal fricative shows variation in place of articulation. In the Harrington data, one can find notes showing the pronunciation being anywhere from a palatal place of articulation to a uvualar place of articulation. This dorsal fricative indicates that the palatal, velar, and uvular places of articulation are all, for fricatives, closely related, and, to the extent of the phonological system, interchangeable.
+:At the same time, the dorsal fricative shows variation in place of articulation. In the Harrington data, one can find notes showing the pronunciation being anywhere from a palatal place of articulation to a uvualar place of articulation. This dorsal fricative indicates that the palatal, velar, and uvular places of articulation are all, for fricatives, closely related, and, to the extent of the phonological system, interchangeable.
-Since the palatal approximant [j] shows no variation in place of articualtion outside of the palatal region, there is no indication that it has any affiliation with either the post-alveolar or velar places of articulation. Since any other place-of-articulation relationship is indeterminant, there is no good reason to include [j] with the post-alveolars over the velars, and vice versa. To that end, it is best to leave [j] in it's own place of articulation.
+:Since the palatal approximant [j] shows no variation in place of articualtion outside of the palatal region, there is no indication that it has any affiliation with either the post-alveolar or velar places of articulation. Since any other place-of-articulation relationship is indeterminant, there is no good reason to include [j] with the post-alveolars over the velars, and vice versa. To that end, it is best to leave [j] in it's own place of articulation.