Talk:Adhan

Incorrect translation

Someone translated the 2nd Athan's "Hayya- al Khair al amal" incorrectly. 3amal means work or deed, more appropriately deed since this is in the context of prayer. Changed it to reflect that.

neutrality

the part about ali is not part of the athan.any how. even for those who believe its is dont translate it into ali is Gods succesor.. because thats not what it meens. and it sends out a wrong messege.

Deletions, Compromise

The line "Ashhadu anna Aliyyan Wali'ullah" keeps getting deleted. I don't want to see the page getting locked over something like that. I'd like to propose a compromise. According to even major Ayatullahs, that line is not _techinically_ considered part of the Adhan, but it is acceptable to recite it within the Adhan. Should a section be created to discuss the status of that line (opinions of Ayatullahs) and its history (i.e. first person reported to have done so, etc)? Hope this is a worthwhile contribution AlonzoRios 3:47, 19th of June, 2006

Internet Explorer

The page looks messed up when using Internet Explorer; it looks fine in Firefox though and I have no idea how to fix it for IE.

Greater, Greatest

I know absolutely nothing about this, but I changed Greatest to Greater based on this note someone (apparently not familiar with wiki!) added to the bottom of the page:

• Note To Editor* The Literal Translation is Greater not Greatest. The word for Greatest is "Al-Akbar" not "Akbar" which means actually Greater or Bigger. This is due to the fact that the word has no "Al-" in front of the word. "Al-Akbar" would mean the Greatest or the Biggest.

Hopefully someone else can verify that this is correct. Kevin Saff 17:36, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This is correct. Greater, indeed. See Takbeer elpincha 23:25, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Touma (1996, p.157) indicates "greatest": "God is most great".

More great would imply "greater", most great implies "greatest" to me. Hyacinth 19:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Call to prayer

According to Touma (1996, p.157): "The adhan is the name for the call to pray from atop the minaret. With this, the believers are called to the Friday holy service and to the five prayers prescribed for the day." However, the article currently states that "the call's purpose is to summon the people to the mosque, not to start the prayers. The equivalent call to start the prayers is called the iqama or iqame." Hyacinth 19:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

According to [1]: iqama is "The call to line up for prayers." (emphasis mine)

methods of calling out

Well, this article doesn't seem to explain too clearly how the the call to prayer manages to broadcast to entire cities in the heat of traffic. In ancient times, furthermore, I'm wondering, how was it done? I was hoping to find information here, but were the callers get voice training, et al? Notably how it echoes around the halls too - of course now they use loudspeakers, but I'm just wondering...-- Natalinasmpf 17:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No one is answering my question? It's been here for months now. How rude. -- Natalinasmpf 21:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

In ancient they made adhan when they sure it's the time. So people, almost all people, should know what is the measure. In a city sure there is more than one mosque and there is no problem if the adhan is a little different in time. In Indonesia there is a big drum called 'Bedug' which beaten before the adhan. - anon

Church bells also may not reach an entire city, yet they still ring. Hyacinth 12:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Bell / conch trouble

I've been disambiggin' the word "bell" ... I don't know a thing about Adhan, but can someone fix the link to bell and conch -- certainly you don't mean a sea creature!--Rbeas 02:41, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The shell of the conch is often played as an instrument (see wikipeida article on conch). You can buy such shells in Key west. 88.239.90.77 14:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC) Ashira

arabic version

Surely there's an Arabic version of this page? Where is it? I can't read Arabic myself, but I was curious about it and found there was none. -- Natalinasmpf 04:03, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I checked (even went to the arab Wikipedia) and they didn't seem to have one. I'll ask User:Joturner.--Kross^Talk 13:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration

The Arabic on this page is all messed up. The transliteration of short vowels have the mark over them. The Shahada is even transliterated wrong, with a part missing. I am going to perform a re-work, I apologize if I'm disturbing someone else's work. Cuñado - Talk 00:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The transliteration is still messed up - anyone with some experience care to jump in there? (For example, in the Sunni Shahada it says "Ash-hadu an la" but in the Shi'a Shahada it says "Ash-hadu anna la"). Alphachimera (talk) 02:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Shi'a view

http://www.azadarnews.com/Islamic-Articles/138.html --Striver 03:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That website is made by some very radical people with whom which I would say the overwhelming majority of Shi'a do not agree. Please do not use it as a source, it is both unscholarly and unacceptable. Ordak mahi 00:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"I testify that Ali is a Vicegerent of God" is not part of azan in shi'a view but its Mustahabb(recommanded).Some marja's say you should say this in different volume from the basic part of adhan so someone hear adhan can recognize this is not part of that.

Aliya wali-ullah not actually part of Adhan for Shi'a

Ash'hadu anna 'alīyā walī'ul-lāh is, as the article says, not mandatory, but it doesn't stop there: we Shi'a do not accept it as part of the adhaan, and in fact one of the factors that invalidates the adhaan is believing that aliya wali-ullah is part of it. It is more of an affirmative statement: in many Shi'a congregations that part is only repeated once as a signal of not being part of the adhaan, and in other congregations that repeat it twice, the second time a different variation is used like "ash'hadu anna aliyyan amir al-mo'mineena wali'ul-lah". I have tried to say all this as concisely as possible on the page itself. Ordak mahi 00:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right. it is not wajib it mustahab. And that is why it is forbidden to actually say 'ali un waly ul llah' twice. you must say two different things such as 'ali un wali ul llah' and 'ali un hujjat tul llah'. if we can reach concensus on this issue the pafe should be edited to reflect this fact.aliasad 00:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"Wali" translation

I have heard "wali" translated as both "vicegerent" as it says in the article and also "friend". Which is a more accurate translation? Ordak mahi 00:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

How does this relate to the article? Hyacinth (talk) 01:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Shofar??

The mention of Shofar (ram's horn) being used as a call to prayer is not a regular part of Jewish practice. It was used as a call to battle, and as part of the prayer service on select holy days and public fasts (see the wikipedia article on shofar). Jews today would not associate a shofar with a call to prayer, and I've never heard of this being the case at any point in history. Perhaps a reliable source can be found for this if it is true- the link to the reference is dead. 88.239.90.77 14:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC) Ashira

about picture

isnt it an atomic bomb cloud? what is the meaning of being in here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.84.132 (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

The photo denoted in the article ends with the description 'la-ilaha-' - which roughly translates into "There is no god/diety", which is not the meaning that the quiblah of imam mustansir in Fatemid masjid of Cario conveys. So, this has to be completely mentioned as 'la-ilaha-illallah' or the meaning gets distorted (ie There is no god but Allah). I am going ahead and changing this if I am able to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sshyder (talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Anti-muslim editors

ok for those editors. please this page is neutral. if you have anything against the relegion be civil about it and take any unessasary talk else where

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth (talk) 01:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Gong

In a PBS documentary, a Muslim scholar states that a gong was selected as the method for calling the faithful to prayer (to avoid using the bell used by Christians or the horn used by Jews). But some of Muhammad's colleagues had a dream that the human voice would work better. I believe this early idea of using a gong should be mentioned in the article. Badagnani (talk) 07:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Problems with section on form

It would probably be a smart idea to refrain from using musical terms when describing the Adhan. We discussed the Adhan at great lengths in a course about music in the world of Islam (I am a music composition major at an American music school). From what I took out of these dialogues, any suggestion this or any divine word is music in any way is strictly blasphemous and offensive. Although I will not argue with the fact that there are tonal characteristics and arrangement of forms that my western ears define as quite musical, I think it would be best to refrain from offending anybody and to define the Adhan in a way that it's creators and practitioners would willingly do.

75.73.216.185 (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Many people disagree about many things but that does not mean that those things should not be described on Wikipedia. Please find sources describing your point of view and add information supported by those sources to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 00:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Musicality

Should the issue of musicality be addressed along with the formal characteristics. If I'm correct, there are different viewpoints within Islam on the nature of the Adhan as musical or non-musical. Certainly it at least shares formal elements with music and shares functions with things identified as music in other cultures, and stylistically kinds of speech-like deliveries may be found in ancient Greek music through Western opera and into rap today. But often music is associated with the secular world, so music-like sacred recitations aren't called music. Am I blabbering, or should this article address the Adhan's relationship to music. 76.20.129.255 (talk) 12:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)defunctadjunct

Note the concerns in the discussion directly above. Hyacinth (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Are the melodies of Adhans improvised or written? How are the vocalists trained? I know there's a debate on musicality, but even so, answers to these questions should be provided.24.98.147.114 (talk) 08:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The melody of the Azaan is usually based on muqamaat (مقامات), the Arabic melodic modes which require some training to master or a good ear to replicate. Typically the Hujaaz (حجاز) or Bayati (بياتى) modes are used for Azaan, with both modes having various sub-branches and nuances that may be preferred in different regions. The use of melody is not a requirement, for example in West Africa the Malikiyya typically use no melody at all for the Azaan. Some Muslims consider the use of muqamaat in the Azaan (or recitation of the Quran) reprehensible and inappropriate.Fzreader (talk) 08:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Sunni view

I think the last line of the "Sunni view" portion of this article needs to be corrected. It's suggested to edit it from "someone recites the iqama as in all prayers." to "someone (amongst the praying people) recites the iqama as in all prayers." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahadeng (talk • contribs) 12:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I've made the necessary changes (only the addition of few words to make the sentence clear) and also linked the word IQAMA to the article Iqama.

shi'i view edit

according to http://sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=2&bid=59&pid=2947 ashahadu anna alian waliullah is not a part of adhan or iqama. so i deleted it. Dany (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

God or Allah

Words of the prayer have just been changed from God to Allah, I am no expert on Islam and so i dont really know which is correct, i would have thought God though seeing as that is English Language PiTalk - Contribs 18:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems appropriate to use "God," as both Judaism and Christianity also come from the Middle East, and we don't use the Hebrew term "Yahweh," the Greek term "Theos," or the Latin term "Dominus" in English-language translations of prayers in those languages. Badagnani (talk) 18:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the current guideline Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Islam-related_articles)#Translation and #Allah, "Allah" is to be translated as "God" unless used as part of an English-language quote. -- Kirk Hilliard (talk) 03:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Transilteration problem

Should it not be "Athan" instead of Adhan? Usually the DH is used for the deep glutteral sound, but it is not the case in this word. The Fear (talk) 00:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem, because in English "th" can also be the voiceless dental fricative, <span=2 style="font-size: 24pt">ﺙ. "Adhan," whether correct or not, seems to be the most commonly used romanization. Badagnani (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Translation

I have changed the translation of Allah to God in the english translation of the adhan. If we are to translate, the entire phrase should be translated, including the word "Allah". --217.35.93.92 (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That is the correct style according to the current guideline Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Islam-related_articles)#Translation and #Allah; "Allah" is to be translated as "God" unless used as part of an English-language quote. -- Kirk Hilliard (talk) 03:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"Salafists" view of tone

"Salafists, such as the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, prefer to issue the adhan in a monotone, considering any verbal elaborations to be makrouh (permissible but discouraged)—or haraam (forbidden) if the meaning of the words is altered."

This seems to me very strange - and not just because I am a Muslim. In Saudi Arabian mosques (a "salafist" country) the adhan is in NO WAY monotone! The fact that this quotation from the article also has no citation... I think it should be entirely removed.

--82.46.212.51 (talk) 19:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I've taken it out, but here it is in case anyone wants to put it back:

Salafists, such as the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, prefer to issue the adhan in a monotone, considering any verbal elaborations to be makrouh (permissible but discouraged)—or haraam (forbidden) if the meaning of the words is altered. [2]

--82.46.212.51 (talk) 18:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to prove my point... This is a clip of the Muazzin (the person who does the adhan) of Masjid al-Haram in Makkah itself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IyaKVQTDXA

--82.46.212.51 (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

OK... someone has changed it back without actually "discussing" it. Apart from the fact it does not cite any reference, there is evidence to the contrary. So yes, I'm going to change it back, cos it's just absurd! --82.46.212.51 (talk) 18:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There are two points here. Firstly the correct elongation of vowels in the Azaan and not exceeding what is permitted by the language and rules of Tajweed. For example many mu'ezzins will elongate the word Allah in Allahu Akbar for melodic effect. There is no basis for this in Tajweed beyond the natural elongation of a long vowel (مد طبيعي). This and similar elongation without basis is disapproved of by some

Secondly the use of melodic tones is disapproved by some Muslims.

In both cases the disapproving party cannot be simply considered to be the Salafist, some of whom do not object to these points, with others that do. In Saudi Arabia which is predominately Salafist, in Mekkah, at the Kaabah the Azaan is recited melodically. Elsewhere, eg Morocco which is mostly Maaliki, it is often recited very monotone.Fzreader (talk) 09:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Determining times of Adhan and different calculation methods

There needs to be a section on the 5 different adhans and their times; including different verses and Hadiths that support it and different interpretations of these instructions by means of different calculation methods of different organizations. I would do all of this myself but I do not know enough about the hadith, Quran and different research that support the differences in the calculation of the Fajr and Isha adhan.

This is what I got for how different calculation methods work from islamicfinder.com: - Umm Al-Qura calculates Fajr Twilight at 19 Degrees, Isha at 90 minutes after the Sunset Prayer 120 minutes in Ramadan only - North America calculates Fajr Twilight at 15 Degrees, Isha Twilight at 15 Degrees - University Of Islamic Sciences, Karachi calculates Fajr Twilight at 18 Degrees, Isha Twilight at 18 Degrees - Muslim World League calculates Fajr Twilight at 18 Degrees, Isha Twilight at 17 Degrees - Egyptian General Authority of Survey calculates Fajr Twilight at 19.5 Degrees, Isha Twilight at 17.5 Degrees

There should also be a section on when prayers are supposed to be made (i.e. how many minutes after adhan they are supposed to be made); there is a belief for instance that it is Makrooh to pray Asr close to the Mughreb Adhan because of its resemblance to the tribes that used to pray to the sun. Also, there is a difference for instance on performing the time of praying Asr for Hanafis, but I'm not sure what that difference is.

Again, I would do all of this myself but I don't have enough Quran, hadith, research and citations to do it- please help me in adding this if you do.Headswork (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

In the external links, I added a link to a document which I prepared sometime ago describing the formulas used for determining prayer times and the various conventions currently in use. Hope it helps. ----Hamid (talk) 08:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Adhan in Turkey

I think whoever wrote the section about the adhan in Turkey wrote it with a strong bias...

Most Muslims I have ever met - in fact ALL of them if you exclude whoever wrote this particular article - see the banning of the arabic adhan as an extremely negative thing and in fact use it as an argument for the tyranny of Mustafa Kemal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.190.106 (talk) 19:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we have a translation for the Türkçe Ezan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.19.155 (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The question of whether or not Muslims see it as negative is different to the question of whether or not the person who wrote it did so with a bias:

http://www.oneummah.net/islam/athan.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.215.30 (talk) 15:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree bias is different than the view of Muslims. Moreover, all Muslims I know in Turkey prefer the Turkish adhan (ezan) and think of the switch to the Arabic version as a step backwards. Which particular Muslims one is associating with seems an important factor here. I disagree with the author's statement that Ataturk attempted to bring secularism, as there is no trying involved. Turkey is secular, officially or otherwise. I will translate it to English, someone who will clean the entire article can use my translation:

Tanrı uludur - God is great

Şüphesiz bilirim, bildiririm - Without doubt, I know and I declare (that:)

Tanrı'dan başka yoktur tapacak. - There is no other except God to worship

Şüphesiz bilirim, bildiririm; - Without doubt, I know and I declare (that:)

Tanrı'nın elçisidir Muhammed. - Muhammed is a Messenger of God

Haydin namaza, haydin felaha, - Hurry to prayer, hurry to worship

Namaz uykudan hayırlıdır. - Prayer is much better than sleep