Talk:North Macedonia

Previous discussion have been archived. Editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to see also Archive1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

1981

After seeing that a lot editors were reverting each other, the subtitle of an image, I have written under the 1981 census "Ethnic map of the (back then "Yugoslav Federal Socialist"-) Republic of Macedonia, based on the sensus of 1981" and I've thought that would be acceptable by all sides. It seems that some editors prefer an anachronism, but I'm not in the mood of reverting them - I hope they'll correct their mistake soon. talk to +MATIA 13:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, maybe we should remove the map, I think it is outdated. Bitola 13:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Map removed. The country has held far more recent ethnic sensus since independence. Regarding the Albanian population, the numbers vary depending on whether you count the Kosovar Albanians and other non-Macedonian Albanians who moved there since 1991. I appreciate the sensitivity this issue may occasion. Politis 13:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Ancientmacedon's edits

I have reverted the edits of Ancientmacedon (talk · contribs) for the following reasons:

• It's a blatant copy-paste (not a copyright infringement or plagiarism) and looks bad.
• It's irrelevant to this article. If it is agreed that this section should be kept, it belongs on Macedonians (ethnic group), not here.
• I looks suspiciously like propaganda. I've heard that about those widely discredited theories on the "sub-Saharan" origins of the Greeks. More akin to pseudoscience than what should be written in an encyclopaedia.

--Latinus (talk (el:)) 23:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

These were discussed thoroughly before. One may go to Talk:Macedonia_(region)/archive#HLA_Genes_research and read till the buttom of the page. talk to +MATIA 23:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers! We now have Genes in macedonians - I can't say that the things started good enough. talk to +MATIA 00:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

No wonder why this user dissappeared from wikipedia! Probably he/she had vanishing chromosomes! NikoSilver 01:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

New Macedonian Tomb Found

[1] - oh wait, but.... Chaldean 02:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Use of the abbreviation

E Pluribus Anthony, I already had a lengthy discussion in the Macedonia talk page about the use of the FYROM abbreviation. Please read it: Talk:Macedonia#Naming_conflict_guidelines. You can also read the UN resolution for admitting the membership of my country (there is no FYROM in the resolution): [2] The bottom line is that the abbreviation is used in many places, but, however, it is considered insulting in my country and for that reason I’m trying to minimize its use in the Wikipedia articles. I hope you will understand why I’m doing this. Bitola 11:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Weeks ago, we agreed to a conciliatory rendition for the name and abbreviation. This initialism is commonly used by the UN and elsewhere, and your link provides no consensus to support your removal of this information. I agree it is unnecessary to indicate FYROM everywhere – for instance, observe the table of European territories and regions, which I created, etc. However, wilfully removing it from the articles where it is directly relevant to the topic matter serves no purpose and is contrary to Wikipedia's neutral-point-of-view policy.

So you will understand why it is necessary for me to restore these notes unless compelled otherwise. I encourage others to comment, however. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 11:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is bound to report current usage, and FYROM occurs far more commonly than "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". I'm afraid you'll just have to learn to live with it. The use of the terms "(Republic of) Macedonia" and "Macedonian" is also offensive, to Greeks, but that hasn't stopped them being used ad nauseam here.--Theathenae 11:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Bitola => NPOV. All views are to be represented. The naming conflict guidelines deal with the titles of articles, not whether an obviously common abbreviation used by many relevant an neutral sources can or cannot be used. NPOV overrules your POV and the naming conflict guideline. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 11:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Latinus, we are talking about facts and NPOV, the fact is that FYROM is unofficial name by any means. Macedonia is accepted in several international organizations under the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, never under FYROM! Moreover, it is considered highly insulting and that is why I insist to remove it from the article. I am not going to open an edit war around this, but I will request other users to include in this discussion as well. Bitola 11:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to. FYROM is a very common way of referring to your country in the English language and as I told you on Talk:Macedonia should not be covered up and should be used where relevant. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 11:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello Bitola. Indeed, the link for the UN resolution you provide us with above[3] , does NOT include FYROM. But it DOES say, "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"; would you like us to use this? I don't think so. The fact is that the appellation 'FYROM' is used internationally. It simply reflects a transitory international situation. It indicates no disrespect to the Macedonian state when used in its right place. I look forward to your valuable contributions on your country. Politis 12:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain why I’m insisting on this so much. I had an opportunity to live in the former Yugoslavia, when my country was one of the six Yugoslavian republics. We were called officially Socialist Republic of Macedonia, but, unofficially, everyone used to call us Macedonia. During that period, as I remember, we had no naming problems with Greece. We used to go in Greece every summer and nobody was mentioning the naming problem at all. Actually, I was quite surprised when the problem begun to emerge when my country became an independent state. When Macedonia admitted to UN under the provisional name, we were told by the previous president Kiro Gligorov that the provisional name (under the long form) will stay only for 2 or 3 months. Unfortunately, more than 10 years from there, UN and other international organizations are still using that name.

The most important is that the provisional name was and is still considered insulting in my country. For example, we had a campaign called: "Don’t you FYROM me, call me Macedonia": [4]. Or, we can take a look at the following article written by Nano Ruzin, Macedonian envoy to NATO: [5]

FYROM, the acronym of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", is a very insulting and dangerous name because it is associated with an uncompleted process of independence, which might imply a repeated integration of the Republic of Macedonia within the Yugoslav Federation. Therefore, under the mediation of Cyrus Vance, the negotiations are still underway between the diplomats of the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece to solve the dispute related to the name of the Republic of Macedonia.

On the other hand, we should also be objective and take a look at the other side and see that Greeks are also very familiar with the name of Macedonia. It is also a fact that many organizations, books and web sites are using the FYROM abbreviation. I hope that this dispute between our countries will be resolved soon and we will not waste our time on things like this.

What I'm proposing: The fact that the abbreviatioin is an insulting, offensive name for us still remains. We already have accepted some compromise solutions regarding Wikipedia articles. For example, the article about my country is named "Republic of Macedonia" (not simply Macedonia) in order to make a distinction from your Macedonia. As part of that compromise, I think it is correct to have several places when the long term is mentioned (for example, in Macedonia disambiguation and in the Republic of Macedonia articles), but I’m asking you to refrain from the use of FYROM abbreviation. To repeat again, I will not involve in an edit war around this. Thanks. Bitola 13:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Good to hear you will not initiate an edit war over this, because the abbreviation will stay anyway.--Theathenae 13:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

TY for elaborating, B. – I empathise and understand. If anything, the above details should be added to the article regarding the republic's relations with its neighbours (to inform anyone who is interested) but removing germane information herein doesn't make it so. As described above, we are very mindful of your concerns and have taken measures to dually reflect them, yet objectify information for everyone's benefit. Thanks for your continued contributions and co-operation. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Bitola, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think that what you are trying to do is censor information. I minor investigation reveals that the World Book Encyclopaedia [6] and Encarta [7] use that abbreviation, so it obviously can be used in encyclopaedias. OTOH you should also bear in mind that the threshold for excluding information in Wikipedia is not whether it is found offensive. Do you not think that the article on the Armenian genocide is offensive to some Turks. The truth sometimes hurts; deal with it. Using Wikipedia to present the world as you wish it was is clearly unacceptable. As long as FYROM is used by other relevant and neutral sources, is a commonly used name in the English language (as opposed to "Republic of Skopje" which is commonly used in Greece :-P), is used by the UN website [8] and there is an absence of a policy excluding it, it shall remain in the article, and as long as the mentioned variables stay put, that is the way it is going to stay. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 13:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Bitola, you quote a source that the usage of fyrom, "is a very insulting and dangerous name because it is associated with an uncompleted process of independence". But the usage of ROM for Greeks holds equal concerns because, rightly or wrongly, it can indicate that the ROM sees its current borders as, 'an uncompleted independence' until all of Macedonia is under its jurisdiction. Personally, I think it is inevitable that your country should adopt the name 'Macedonia', but it comes with a loaded historical heritage due to Alexander's Hellenic empire. That heritage has not been absorbed yet by ROM, and neither has its intelligentsia come to terms with it. A big name carries even greater responsibilities (and this is from someone who would gladly live in your country). Politis 14:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The initialism FYROM is already given in the section on the country's name and has been for a very long time. It doesn't need to be added in multiple instances; that's just clutter. Jonathunder 14:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Jonathunder, you're wrong. You are reverting the only mention of the abbreviation. Look at this [9] the word FYROM is highlighted. There is only one (as far as I can see). --Latinus (talk (el:)) 14:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I also did a little research and found out that the most online encyclopedias are using the term "Macedonia" and generally are not using the abbreviation:

Encyclopedia.com:[10]

Britannica online: [11]

Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.[12]

Canadian Encyclopedia: [13] Bitola 16:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

In addition to other authoritative references above, your summary conveniently overlooks the 5 million online instances of "FYROM" (raw Google search), which slightly exceed those for "Republic of Macedonia" ... both of which more than double online occurrences of the FYROM spell-out. I defer to prior statements. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 16:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

And what about 85,900,000 results for the following search:Macedonia -Greek -Former -Yugoslavian: [14]? Bitola 16:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Straw man. That does not prove that FYROM is not widely used in English. If you refine that search of yours, what do you get [15]? --Latinus (talk (el:)) 17:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Look at your search: Macedonia -Greek -Former -Yugoslavian -Greece -Bulgaria -Thessaloniki -Hellas -Bulgaria -Pirin -Blagoevgrad -Yugoslav -USA -America -Australia -Romania -Cuba. I'm wondering why you didn't include the rest of the English words as well:)))) Bitola 17:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, "Macedonia" is a widely used placename. The last thing we sould want would be to use the hits relating to Macedonia, Ohio - unless that's what you were up to (λες;). Are you disputing the relevance of any of those additional searching criteria? I've been thinking of adding -York -Alabama - Iowa and -Illinois as well, to filter out the results from Macedon (town), New York, Macedonia, Illinois, Macedonia, Alabama and Macedonia, Iowa :-))) --Latinus (talk (el:)) 17:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Look how many you get if you do [16] :-))) --Latinus (talk (el:)) 17:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Come on, Latinus, according to your logic, there is no possibility that one Internet page can contain the words Macedonia (about my country) and, for example, Cuba? Check, for example, the following searches and you will see why you should't exclude that words as you did: [17], [18], [19]. Bitola 17:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Ditto: that's not necessarily an apt search, B., since the results yield far more hits that concern more than just the state. And, after all, that's partially why there's a disambiguation in Wp for the overarching term. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 17:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

However, we are losing the point (I’m again involving in the endless discussion with Latinus), I said what I had to say, I provide my view on the abbreviation problem and I’m leaving other users to decide whether the abbreviation should stay or not in the article. Now I will get off the soapbox. Bitola 17:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion: the abbreviation stays. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 17:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian question

In the past few weeks I was pretty much involved in lengthy discussions about the so-called Macedonian question. During that period, using different reliable sources, I was trying to explain why Greeks are making a big mistake regarding my country and my people. Their theory that we are using a name that is Greek property is mistaken from the very beginning; regarding the fact that considerable number of historians is telling that the Ancient Macedonians were different people from the Ancient Greeks. Even if that is not true, it is really funny that some country is forcing another country to change its name for the things happened several thousands years before. Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks are for a long time dead, thanks God we are alive, but we are wasting our time and energy on this meaningless issue for years. This Greek obsession is also wrong regarding the fact that one of the basic human rights is the right of self-determination, in other words, the right to freely express your nationality and your name. If someone is feeling that he is a Macedonian, Greek, American or every other choice, leave him, you shouldn't stop him in his determination. Finding nicknames that are insulting (what they are doing all the time) is, by my opinion, horrible. We should all be proud that we inherited, if not more, the territory where these famous people once lived and made a history. But, obviously, it is hard to explain to someone something when he doesn't want to listen. For that reason, I will try to minimize my discussions about the Macedonian question for some time. I do not intend to explain to every new narrow-minded nationalist why he shouldn't act like that. This time I would like to thank to several moderate Greek editors (like E Pluribus Anthony, Politis and Michalis Farmelis) for their reasonable and non-insulting way of discussing things and to all other editors who are expressing good faith regarding the Macedonian articles. Of course, I will not stop to make my contributions to Wikipedia (and to revert some bad-faith edits as well:)) So long, catch you later! Bitola 23:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The other side of the Macedonian Question.

In the past few weeks all of us were involved in lengthy discussions. I was using different reliable sources, and was trying to explain why people from FYROM are making a big mistake. Their theory that the name they are using is not Greek property is mistaken from the very beginning; due to the fact that the vast majority of sane and neutral historians is telling that the Ancient Macedonians were in fact Ancient Greeks (since all their names are Greek and have meanings as Greek words -like eg Alexander means "Man-proof" and Philip means "Horse-friend" unlike eg all the Persian names -like Xerxes, since Megas Alexandros explicitly said he was Greek as written by Herodotus and other historians of the time, since Macedonians participated in the Olympic Games as ONLY Greeks would etc etc etc) and in NO case could they be Slavs, who indisputably came 1,000 years later at 600AD (as Kiro Gligorov himself admitted). Even if that was not true, it is really funny that some country can be using a name of a broader geographical area for its own, even if some part of it occupies about 30% of that geographical area. Next, we will have Spain call itself "Iberia", Serbia call itself "Balkania", Norway call itself "Scandinavia", China call itself "Asia" and Thailand call itself "Polynesia". Ancient Macedonians together with all other Ancient Greeks are for a long time dead, thank God we are alive to keep all thieves of their name and history away, no-matter how much time and energy is needed to be spent on this very important issue. This Slavonic obsession is also wrong due to the fact that self-determination may be one of the basic human rights, but theft of foreign names and foreign history for the reason of internal multi-ethnic peaceful co-existence is not. If someone is feeling that he is a Macedonian, Greek, American or whatever, leave him, you shouldn't stop him in his determination if that determination is true. If, however, someone IS NOT, then do not allow him/her to be called that. Stealing names is insulting (what they are doing all the time), and in my opinion, horrible. We should all be proud that we inherited, if not more, the territory where these famous people once lived and made a history. But, obviously, it is hard to explain to someone something when he doesn't want to listen. For that reason, I will try to minimize my discussions about the Macedonian question for some time, as long as both sides are visible for readers of this page. I do not intend to explain to every new narrow-minded nationalist why he shouldn't act like that. This time I would like to approve the way of discussing things by objective editors like Latinus, +MATIA, Theathenae, Chaldean and others. My warmest regards to everyone, even if he/she needs a stolen I.D. or introduces him/herself as someone else. NikoSilver 19:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Before 1913 there was one Macedonia, the one and only 100% Macedonia. Now according to the Greeks there is a smaller Macedonia, 51% of the original Macedonia known as "Makedonia". Again, according to the Greeks, there is no other Macedonia. If Macedonia was 100% in 1913 and 51% of Macedonia was taken by the Greeks then what happened to the other 49% of Macedonia? Did it vanish? If you cut Macedonia into three pieces, the pieces are still Macedonia, just as if you cut an apple into three pieces it is still an apple, three pieces of the same apple! In other words, three pieces of Macedonia is still Macedonia! Now if you wish to identify each piece individually then you can call them A, B and C. If A is called Macedonia what should B and C be called? According to the Greeks however, if A is called Macedonia then B and C cannot be called Macedonia! So lets see who is stealing the name. Makedonec 16:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)