Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2011

why is italy listed under semi finalists?

shouldnt it be listed under finalists. i mean if it is a part of a big 5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.103.135 (talk) 07:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It has not been made clear by the EBU if there will be a big 5, or if Italy will be part of it and qualify directly to the final. The EBU is expected to announce more details at a references meeting later this month. Until then, it should be in the semi-finalist section with the rest of the countries. Greekboy (talk) 08:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

what about adding it to uncertain or something.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.103.135 (talk)

That is called speculation. As of right now, there is no such thing as a Big Five. The media is talking about it, but that does not mean it will happen. The media talks about tons of stuff. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

will russia become a part of the big countries

i heard a rumor of it on a forum. if it is true russia will most likely qualify for the final. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.103.135 (talk) 10:34, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

sweden will most likely sing in english

since they tend to translate their songs into english if they arent already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.103.135 (talk) 11:00, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

norway will sing either on norwegian or english

those are the only languages that norway use in eurovision song contest.(though there is some times words in other languages added into the song.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.103.135 (talk) 11:02, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Logos uploaded to Commons

I have taken note that the Eurovision 2011 logo has been uploaded to Commons on grounds that it is illegible to copyright, rather than here locally as non-free content. This marks a significant change from previous years, and I may ask for input shortly on Commons to determine for sure whether the logo(s) uploaded there are actually illegible for copyright. See Commons:Threshold of originality for more information. CT Cooper · talk 15:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Which logo? The one with the black background that was added a few minutes ago to the page or the one we had for the past few months? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The one shown here primarily. File:ESC 2011 Germany.svg doesn't matter as it is uploaded locally under fair use. CT Cooper · talk 15:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I've received some feedback at commons:Template talk:PD-textlogo/en#Opinions on Eurovision logos requested and it appears Eurovision logos are okay on Commons. This means from now on logos can simply be uploaded onto Commons, with the benefits of this including that only one upload is needed for all Wikipedia projects, and there are no longer any restrictions on usage from the WP:NFCC. I suggest that the logos be slowly uploaded onto Commons, with the local fair use simply de-linked, which will result in them being tagged by a bot and later deleted. CT Cooper · talk 22:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

San Marino

http://www.esctoday.com/news/read/16324

San Marino has confirmed for participating in 2011. Does not San Marino in the semifinal list of participants are? (My English is not very good, i'm from Holland). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berthebest (talk • contribs) 19:37, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I think San Marino shouldn't be listed as confirmed till a true confirmation from SMRTV is given, till then it should be listed under "Possible returns". Their situation is exactly the same as Montenegro and Hungary, which are listed as so: they have applied, yet it's not clear whether they will participate. Please somebody remove them from the confirmed list, I've tried several times but it's always reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berthebest (User talk:Guest) 22:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.29.51 (talk)

I believe the difference is that Hungary and Montenegro both said they have applied, but aren't sure yet, while San Marino has said they are in, but retain the right to withdraw if necessary. Any country can still withdraw at this point. I don't see San Marino's case as being any different than the other confirmed countries as per the sources used in the article. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:17, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, to retain the right to withdraw is as good as not being sure... If that's the case, I think either we list Hungary and Montenegro under the confirmed countries too, or list San Marino as undecided, which I still believe it's the best option. After all it's a same situation as that of 2009: SMRTV originally applied, and then withdrew, and that's more than likely to happen again this year. It's always possible (and better) to add a confirmed country later on that having to remove it from the confirmed list. But alas, do what you may. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berthebest (User talk:Guest) 00:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.29.51 (talk)

Yes. I also think San Marino should be removed from the confirmed participant's list. They haven't confirm they're entering. They just applied. Is exactly the same case as Montenegro and Hungary. I know that every country can withdraw before December 25th but is not the case of countries like Sweden or Ukraine whose national finals are underway or Switzerland which has already chosen its entrant. And if we are taking that into account then what... no country should be confirmed? I myself going to take off San Marino from the participants list and place it on the undecided section... I hope we reach a consensus on this matter. Tony0106 (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

According to the ESC Today source, San Marino's broadcaster has confirmed participation. The only difference between San Marino and the other confirmed participants is that the broadcaster also stated that it may end up changing its mind before the deadline. This is something that all broadcasters have the right to do. Montenegro and Hungary have not said that they are entering, but have applied leaving the option available if they chose to participate. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey Grk1011/Stephen I don't wanna sound rude but I'd like you to tell me in which part of the ESCToday article the Sanmarinese broadcaster confirmed their participation? Even the headline says "Will we see San Marino back at the Eurovison Song Contest along with Italy in 2011?" I'm sorry but they are not confirmed. They are in the same situation as Hungary and Montenegro. For instance, Bosnia and Herzegovina is in as it says here or France but San Marino is definitely not. --Tony0106 (talk) 01:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The article says that San Marino has applied. Like I just said above, any country can withdraw before the deadline. The question posed by the author which you quote is simply asking the readers if they think San Marino will actually go through with it. Remember that ESC Today and other sites thrive on encouraging discussion of their articles through reader posts below them. As of now we have no reason to think San Marino will not go through with participating. Hungary and Montenegro are different because they sent in their applications, but the broadcasters did so as a precaution to not preclude a participation; they remain undecided, unlike San Marino whose broadcaster said it will participate but retains the right to change its mind. It's a different situation and I struggle to see why you can't understand this. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:55, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The article does not say they confirm their participation. That is what I cannot find the different situation b/w Hungary or Montenegro. That is the point. If you're considering just the fact that any country can withdraw without penalties before Christmas then we should not even have a participants list. But that is not the case. San Marino simply cannot be a confirmed participant because they haven't say they are going to compete. That is why. I think we should vote on this issue. You are actually the only way saying San Marino is in. And I am going to revert it again.--Tony0106 (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

First and foremost, remember polling is not a substitute for discussion. That being said, it all comes down to wording from the sources. It seems to me that San Marino has applied and will compete as well, but in comparison the case of Montenegro, the are still on the fence about the contest itself and just applied to reserve their chance to compete. Every single country on the list has the right to withdraw with no penalty until late December. Either way, a consensus needs to be reached on this issue. This edit waring can not go on any longer. Perhaps adding a hidden note in the article directing users to this talk for discussion would help form a consensus? It seems that IP users are also edit waring for this same issue. On a side note, should Hungary even be included in a possible return list? It seems to me the source used is not based on much. From the source: "However, according to our sources, Hungary might be back in Eurovision in Dusseldorf with MTV." What sources? In the case of Montenegro and San Marino, it seems their respective broadcasters officially stated they have applied. Greekboy (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with Greekboy and Grk1011/Stephen. I do agree that the source is rather ambiguous on whether they are confirmed or not, but from I can tell is that if SMRTV told ESCToday explicitally that they had applied it does seem pretty likely that they will participate. From what I can tell about Montenegro and Hungary is that there was probably some probing by news sites to get an answer from them, while San Marino was more open with their answer. Even now ESCToday has reported no news on Hungary, and has paraphrased news from an Montenegrin website about Monetenrgo ([1]). On the other hand news on San Marino has come from SMRTV themselves, so it seems more likely they would compete in Germany. Or, if no concensus is reached, we could just wait until the EBU release the official list of participants in a few weeks time. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 15:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Liechtenstein

How come Liechtenstein is removed from the possible debuts section? From what I know no decision has been made about their participation yet. --Katching (talk) 06:11, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Liechtenstein was removed from the list as the country cannot participate as no broadcaster from Liechtenstein is a member of the EBU. 1FLTV applied for EBU membership, but was not accepted. Therefore the country can't take part. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 15:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Source on this please.. --Katching (talk) 23:02, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

The source is needed for inclusion, not omission. There are sources stating that the country wants to and could if it gets over such and such hurdles, but as of right now, it is ineligible. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this source should help all those who say Liechtenstein is or isn't debuting in 2011. I had read somewhere months back that the EBU where looking into leaving a "backdoor" open for the nation to debut. But from what this sources briefly shows, the EBU will decide officially at the next Reference Group Meeting. http://www.oikotimes.com/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=8581 80.192.226.205 (talk) 03:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's the other link [2] I spoke about above, in which Svante Stockselius has been reported to have said that if Liechtenstein have submitted an application to be full members of the EBU, then a "backdoor" will be left open for the nation to join. Hopefully this now helps provide enough information to clear up the grey area surrounding Liechtenstein's "possible" debut. 80.192.226.205 (talk) 03:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing of articles using secondary sources

On a couple of occasions now I've noticed articles are being referenced to their source, but subsequently changed to an esctoday article referencing the original source (example: San Marino confirms participation was written by escdaily.com, and referenced as such, and then changed to an esctoday.com article referencing escdaily.com.) What is the reasoning for this? It seems strange not to reference the original article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukavsfan (talk • contribs) 17:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

ESCDaily is currently not regarded as a reliable source, while ESCToday is per the last discussion on the issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 4#RfC on reliable sources for Eurovision articles, though there is nothing stopping further discussion on ESCDaily, which has not as far as I know been vetted in depth by Wikipedia editors. Secondary sources are usually preferred over primary sources on Wikipedia per WP:PRIMARY, though this not a primary source vs. secondary source issue with both ESCToday and ESCDaily being secondary sources, which must/should be getting their information from primary sources or other secondary sources, as neither are broadcasters or running the content. A primary source is very close to the issue or event, which for Eurovision would be sources directly from broadcasters or the EBU. CT Cooper · talk 17:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

While I admit that I did not notice that ESC Daily was the source for the ESC Today article, I think this brings up a good question regarding it as a source. ESC Today was found to be reliable as they stated their process for writing stories and detailed how stories are checked before being published. ESC Daily seems new to the game and I couldn't find an "about us" or anything that would allow us to have a better understanding of how the website works. The way I see it right now, ESC Today is preferred because we believe they doubled checked the information before publishing the article and didn't just rewrite the ESC Daily article and publish it. Considering that they are new and seem to be reliable, I would suggest we start a discussion. As they have minimal information on their site, an email request similar to what was done for ESC Today and Oikotimes should be explored. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I take the points above. I just wanted to bring it up as on the last two occasions the source has been changed to ESC Today, although I wrote the original article on ESCDaily on the basis of an e-mail from the broadcaster itself! So it was a little disappointing in that sense. Am more than happy to help 'verify' us, as we weren't online when you made the original last a few years ago- but having said that, have been there since November of last year. --Ukavsfan (talk) 23:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I wish you hadn't said that because of WP:SELFPUBLISH. You really aren't supposed to write articles yourself and then use them as a source. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Honesty is always appreciated, particularly when it involves a potential conflict of interest. Self-publishing is discouraged on Wikipedia, but it is editors just publishing their own opinions so they can add them to articles, effectively getting around WP:NOR, which is most problematic, which is not the case here. However, the issue will have to be taken into account when assessing ESCDaily. CT Cooper · talk 12:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Am afraid you'll probably find a fair few people do that already. However, it's not a case of self-publishing to argue a point, merely having the information at hand from a source (generally the broadcaster itself) and updating the Eurovision page accordingly. I'd argue, though, that there wouldn't be a need to self-publish if ESCDaily was able to be sourced for its own work to begin with.--82.34.72.144 (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

That is why enforcement of policies and guidelines on Eurovision articles in regards to sourcing is more tight than used to be. Per WP:V all sources used in articles must be (a) published and (b) reliable. My interpretation of the policy definition of self-publishing is that users making postings on websites based on previously non-published information (including e-mails) is self-publishing, unless there is some kind of editorial oversight before publication (which would remove the "self" from self-publishing). Self-publishing is allowed if the person doing it is considered an expert, and this is generally the only circumstance in which such a source will be considered reliable. The rules on sourcing about living people are more strict (which does/will include some content in this article) - self-published sources may not be used even if the publisher is an expert, per WP:BLPSPS. CT Cooper · talk 20:42, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The simple fact that a site like oikotimes, which has published more false news than any other Eurovision site over the last few months is regarded as a trustworthy source is ridiculous. Especially if you also condider the horrible use of English. Another thing that surprised me in the past: The Russian confirmation was reported first by the blog EurovisionTimes , then the news was reported by ESCDaily one day later (stating the initial publisher as source) and then ESCToday used ESCDaily as their source. The reference for Russia is now ESCToday. Why can't it be the original publisher? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manialf (talk • contribs) 22:58, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding oikotimes, it is not really considered as a reliable source. If you look at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 4#RfC on reliable sources for Eurovision articles, there was no consensus reached on oikotimes. As the closing mod said in her summary notes, Contributors should be very cautious if they choose to use this site, particularly as involves biographical material related to living people.....I myself would treat it as a "questionable source." Personally I would only use oikotimes depending on the situation, which is what I noted when I voted it as "Semi-reliable source and can be used in Eurovision articles but not for citing important or controversial statements" in the straw-poll back then. Maybe it is time to re-open the discussion on WP:Eurovision on reliable sources though? It seems a few new sites have been established online since then, while some of the sites in the original discussion seem to have evolved as well. Greekboy (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No one is defending Oikotimes' downward spiral over the past year or so especially. It has definitely published its fair share of rumors and the grammar is horrible on nearly every article. I believe that in our source discussion we found it to be reliable, but to use with caution. It was ok to use it for non controversial sourcing, but discouraged for information that would be difficult to source without Oikotimes. We should have a new discussion, but I am doubtful of the participation as not many of the editors adding these sources are part of the community; most seem to be fly by editors with one purpose. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

While using a good mixture of sources is encouraged, there is no practice on Wikipedia to always use the most original source available, and reliability always takes preference over originality. ESCToday is used because it is believed that they can separate the wheat from the chaff, however other sources may be considered reliable if there is another discussion on the subject. The biggest problem with such discussions is that few people bother to participate, with the general problem on Eurovision articles being many editors but few wishing to communicate or discuss issues. This is why even if Oikotimes is found to be unreliable, stopping its use would be a challenge. CT Cooper · talk 11:26, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Slovakia

Please refrain from adding Slovakia in the list until their non-withdrawal is secured by a reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.15.25 (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I reverted the removal of Slovakia from the infobox because it broke the referencing elsewhere in the article, also the source given, ESCKaz, is considered less reliable then ESCToday per past consensus in the RfC linked in the above section. If the situation on Slovakia changes, then please update all relevant sections of the article. Though I have to say, the ESCToday article used seemed preety confident that Slovakia is leaving. CT Cooper · talk 20:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, CT Cooper, I was referring to the list of confirmed countries. I share your point that Slovakia should remain listed as "Withdrawn" till proven wrong. And it's also true what you say about the ESCToday article, however, those are old news and currently it seems that Slovakia is quite likely not to have withdrawn at all. We need to wait till the official confirmation anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.15.25 (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you thought about making an account to edit? We need more editors who are willing to discuss changes and participate, as you have shown you are capable of. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, on your advice I made an account :) (Nathanvolkov (talk) 00:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC))

Slovakia are confirmed by eurovision.tv so they must be in. http://www.eurovision.tv/page/news?id=22833&_t=43+nations+on+2011+participants+list! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.237.220.12 (talk) 13:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

the page on slovakia needs improvement

information on its 2011 participation is a bit vague. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.86.142 (talk) 20:41, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Well by all means improve the page ;) Grk1011 (talk) 20:45, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

The reason there is little information on the page is because there is little information to be put on the page so far. STV have released next to no details but once they have released some then it will be put on the page soon after. If you happen to know information that isn't on the page then of course add it, but for now all the information that we can find is on the page. Lukex115 (talk) 23:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Slovakia will be not in Eurovision: http://escportal.cz/slovensko-definitivne-rozhodlo-o-neucasti-na-eurovizi/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.218.188.36 (talk) 17:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Web site must be translated! I can't speak Czech! See this page! If this is the old news, cite may deleted! 81.215.239.22 (talk) 18:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Note: No one withdraw from a country after christmas! 81.215.239.22 (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)