Talk:Richard Winters

Photo

The article is on a real person, not an actor. Does anyone have a non-copywrighted image of Mr. Winters we can replace the current one with? (USMA2010 16:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC))

i could upload a screenshot from the documentary "we stand alone together". would that be acceptable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.33.119 (talk) 22:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be copyright by the makers of the documentary. What is needed is a photograph someone took themselves and is prepared to release under a suitable license. Notinasnaid 22:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs an image. There are a few on google images, but I am not sure as to whether they are copyrighted or not. As for a screenshot, that would be easy to get hold of, but the copyright would prove to be a difficulty. --JJMan 13:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Winters is a historical figure. A screenshot from We Stand Alone Together would absolutely be fair use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.38.32 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

hi, two months ago I saw very nice photo of Richard D. Winters on this page and now is not here anymore, do you know where can I find this photo ? It was this one photo but bigger and better quality ..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by JFRyan42 (talk • contribs) 07:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Disambig

I'm not so sure renaming this article from "Richard D. Winters" to "Richard Winters" was a good move. By using the middle initial, it was more unique. Disambiguation would not be needed. This change already caused most links to be manually updated. Beanbatch 6 July 2005 01:45 (UTC) What is his middle name? Or does it just stand for his nickname "Dick". I disagree with that edit.--Mart572 (talk) 05:57, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

West Point?

The assault itself is still studied at military academies as an example of small unit tactics.

So do we have a real reference for this? I know BofB mentions it, but it would be great if someone could find a reference to the Brecourt Manor assault in a West Point textbook, or some online manual. Beanbatch 17:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

My friends brother went to West Point and the last time I talked to them I asked him, and he said it is briefly shown in a massive tactics unit and is drawn by the Professor on a whiteboard, no textbook references.

65.95.232.95 00:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

We never studied it in my officer training in ROTC and Benning. However, it was mentioned in a Military History class that I took through the ROTC program. By the time we got to Benning we were studying more current engagements that fit into the scope of what we would be dealing with, i.e. Somalia. I didn't go to West Point, so I am not really keen on what they study there. I am pretty sure it is mentioned in the book, I'll have to go back through my notes and see. If that is the case it can be easily cited utilizing the book as a source.

As an aside point, the attack at Brecourt Manner is studied at the Royal Military College, Duntroon (Australia's officer training college) by the officer cadets during their offensive operations phase in II Class, although I am by no means suggesting that this should be added to the article. – AustralianRupert (talk) 11:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Good Conduct Medal

The article states that Winters recieved the Good Conduct Medal, but that is an award for enlisted men only. Winters entered the Army as an officer, and as such could not have gotten this medal. I am removing it, but if anyone has a reference for it, please cite it here and re-insert it. --rogerd 21:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Enlisted in the Good Conduct Medal page is referring to anyone, officers included. They wouldn't make it just for enlisted men, it's stupid, because then they'd have to create an officer version aswell.

65.95.232.95 00:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if YOU think it's stupid or not. The U.S. Army's Good Conduct Medal is given ONLY to enlisted personnel. Maj. Winters entered the army as a private, and therefore was eligible to receive the award. ThinksSheKnowsEverything 23:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I am currently reading Beyond Band of Brothers: The War Memoirs of Maj. Dick Winters and Winters entered the U.S. Army as a Private upon graduating college in 1941. He coul have also earned the medal before he went to OCS. --wdsailors, January 2006

In 1943, the required period of "continuous enlisted active Federal military service" was reduced to one year while the US was at war (three years at all other times). [1] It's not clear to me whether officers are eligible, but I believe so. --Habap 20:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The Good Conduct Medal is only for enlisted soldiers. However, regs could have been different during this time period, highly doubtfull though. Someone will have to look it up. Winters did enlist as a private and went through OCS. The way to find out if he had been awarded the medal would be to do some research and see if there is access to his 201 file. His 201 would give you all information on him from the date he enlisted, service time, service placement, and awards.

Winters originally joined the Army as a private. He later became a drill instructor before taking OCS. After finishing OCS, Winters returned to be a drill instructor while waiting to be assigned to an Airborne unit. It's all in Biggest Brother by Larry Anderson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.66.201 (talk) 16:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

105 or 88mm

Weren't the german guns firing on the causway known as 88's i.e 88mm? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

No, they were 105mm howitzers. However, most Allied soldiers called any large calibre weapon firing at them an "88" out of ignorance. Every tank was often called a "Tiger" as well despite its actual nomenclature or configuration, due to the reputation both weapons had gained out of proportion to their actual numbers.Michael Dorosh 18:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of ignorance? I do not think so Michael. It's just a shorthand way of referring to this types of weapons without complicating the issue. Ignorance is the wrong word entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchuk (talk • contribs)

Ignorance is entirely the correct word - the soldiers in question did not know what the actual types of weapons were that were firing at them (why would they?) and so simply hurled the term "88" at anything that was shooting. Ignorant is the correct term.139.48.25.61 (talk) 14:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree w/ Michael also. It's not ignorance, simply expediency. Ignorance implies disrespect in general to the soldiers/officers involved. If someone shouts orders to "get those guns before they murder the guys on the beach" and orders are hurriedly passed in the heat of battle, it's not necessarily they didn't know they were bigger than 88s, they may just use the term as it's quicker to say rather than explain right then the exact caliber of weapon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.100.23 (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Brecourt

This article previously claimed that the guns at Brécourt Manor were defended by the 6th Fallschirmjäger Regiment, however i have removed this as it contradicts with the article on the Brécourt Manor Assault which claims it was defended by the less highly respected German 709th Static Infantry Division. can anyone find a good source supporting either claim? Trottsky 15:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

In Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose (first five paragraphs of the chapter titled Follow Me), it clearly states that German Col. von der Heydte, commander of the 6th Parachute Regiment (Fallschirmjager) ordered his 1st battalion to occupy and defend Brecourt and Ste. Marie-du-mont, and to find some artillerymen to get the battery of 105 mm guns working. Col. von der Heydte was interviewed in 1991 for the book. This is on pages 77 and 78 of the 2004 printing in paperback from Simon & Schuster - page numbers might vary in other printings. It is possible, though not so stated, that German soldiers from other units were also involved. It is not uncommon in ground combat for soldiers from different units to be involved in close proximity, so other research on the 709th could indicate that they were also involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.167.186 (talk) 23:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Christianity

I'm not sure if "It should also be noted that he grew up a devout christian." belongs in this article. If related to another point in the article, such as the usage "A devout Christian, Winters <insert something related>", I'd be fine with it. But the usage at current, I'm not sold on it's place. It seems just like a random fact, not something deserving of a place in an encyclopedia article. Thoughts? (Note: I haven't closely read the rest of the article. If his Christian upbringing is important to the rest of his life, then it deserves to be mentioned, but perhaps in a better context than it is now.) 71.79.111.247 02:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Just noticed that the line in question was just added by an non-registered user today. That makes me feel even more confident that it doesn't below in an encyclopedia article, which is what Wiki is supposed to be. 71.79.111.247 02:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 11:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing with the line's removal, which was appropriate in the circumstances; but it does seem ironic that a non-registered user is pooh-poohing non-registered users. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This is absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.154.150 (talk) 02:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know what faith he was, given he wasn't a Quaker? (71.201.113.143 (talk) 20:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC))

A place to send a thank you letter?

Hey guys,

I was wondering - where may I find a mail address to send a thank you letter to Mr. Winters? If this is not possible, my apologies. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lennybird (talk • contribs) 04:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You Can't. All mail will be returned from the post office at his request. 214.13.192.187 (talk) 13:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure you can. So what if it's returned, at least u feel better and made the effort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.100.23 (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Orange Lanyard

The article on the Dutch Orange Lanyard (as symbolic of meritorious service by whole unit) says that it was awarded to 82nd Airborne, while Major Winters served in 101st. Is there a confirmation that his unit in 101st was awarded this, as the decoration article says it was only awarded for 82nd and the 1st Polish airborne for Arnheim... --TLein (talk) 13:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

That is right, the 101st has never awarded the Orange Lanyard of the Royal Netherlands Army. Only the 82nd and 1st POlish did. And a couple of Dutch divisions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.204.217.123 (talk) 11:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed it from the article until someone can provide official evidence. DragonFury (talk) 22:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Dates of promotions

At what point was Winters promoted to captain? The article mentions the time-frames for his other promotions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.185.8 (talk) 15:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I have added what I could find out so far.

• Second Lieutenant — July 2, 1942
• First Lieutenant — not sure of exact date, some time in October 1942
• Captain — July 1, 1944
• Major — March 8, 1945.

Hope this helps. If anyone can provide the exact date for promotion to first lieutenant, that would be great. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 00:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that winters skipped the rank of First Lieutenant and immediatly became captain?--Mart572 (talk) 02:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi. No, in his book, Winters clearly states that he was promoted to first lieutenant in October 1942, he just does not give a day in October (see Winters 2006, p. 39). All the dates listed above have citations in the article, for where they can be found in the sources. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but it seems that it is not possible to find it on any internet search engine.--Mart572 (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Postwar activities

As i write this the page includes the statement "...During the interview segment of the miniseries, Winters is quoted as saying "I will never forget the words spoken to me by my grandson, when he said 'Grandpa, were you a hero during the war?' Grandpa said 'No . . . but I served in the company of heroes'."..." -- in fact the fuller edit of this comment on the DVD "extras" reveals that this anecdote is recounted from a letter received from Bill Guarnere, so the quotation itself is from him and not from Richard Winters -- at present the webpage is slightly disingenuous because it implies that Richard Winters himself was the originator of a (very moving) quotation which should, in fact, be attributed to Bill Guarnere -- IZ 8Apr09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.83.176 (talk) 20:36, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Of Jewish decent?

I know that Richard Winters was born in the US but in the movie "Currahee" of the miniseries Band of Brothers one soldier(Bill Guarnere) said that Winters was of Jewish decent; can anyone tell me if this is true?--Mart572 (talk) 22:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Of what interest would such information be?

I just wanted it confirmed--Mart572 (talk) 04:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, mate. In his memoirs Winters states that his mother was brought up as a Mennonite, but never accepted the faith. He later makes minor mentions of being religious in a Christian sense, but does not spell anything out clearly (from memory, it has been a little while since I read the work). The line that you are thinking of in the television series, I believe, was not a serious comment. I believe it was 'tongue in cheek' and more a comment about Sobel than Winters. I don't think you can place much faith in the comment. Regardless, as per the (if not slightly rude) anon comment above, I don't really think it matters to be honest. Hope this helps, if only a little. — AustralianRupert (talk) 05:04, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for the advice & information AustralianRupert. I'm sorry if I was being rude to anyone. I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean to be rude if I was. Thank you again--Mart572 (talk) 07:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Not you, mate. Your comment wasn't rude, it was the anonymous 'of what interest' comment that I was referring to. Sorry, sometimes it is hard to adequately express oneself on a faceless medium such as this. Essentially I agree with the anon, but wanted to put it in a better way. — AustralianRupert (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Died?

         A friend told me that Richard Winters died about a year ago.  Can anybody confirm this for me?

--Mart572 (talk) 01:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If he had died, it would have been reported in the media by now. Don't think that has happened yet.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Service years

I have changed the original discharge date of 1945 in the infobox 1946, as Winters himself says on page 255 of Beyond Band of Brothers that he was discharged in January 1946. The infobox also that Winters served in the US Army again from 1950-53. I don't believe this to be correct. On page 256 of Beyond Band of Brothers, Winters states that he was recalled in June 1951 involuntarily. On the following page he implies that it did not last long, stating that he left the army when they offered him the chance to resign shortly before embarkation for Korea. He does not, however, specify the exact date that he was discharged. Can anyone help with this? I will change the date in the infobox to 1951 as the book clearly says this, but will leave 1953 for the moment as I don't have any clear reference (although it does seem wrong). — AustralianRupert (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps he resign the same year he was recruited.--Mart572 (talk) 02:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Involvement in Operation Plunder

The infobox mentions that Winters was involved in Operation Plunder. Someone has placed a citation needed tag beside this. I don't think Winters was involved in this operation. Plunder occured in March and Op Varsity was a part of it. Varsity involved the 17th Airborne, not the 101st. Apparently some 101st men took part as observers, but Winters makes no mention of himself taking part in it, instead he states that Lewis Nixon took part. See Beyond Band of Brothers p. 205. Given this, I feel that the link in the infobox should be removed. Does anyone agree or disagree? — AustralianRupert (talk) 13:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I have removed this from the infobox - Operation Plunder. None of the sources state that Winters went on this operation, indeed as per above, they indicate reasonably clearly that he did not. I have removed it because the Fact tag was holding up a B class mil hist review. If anyone can find sources that are more reliable that Winters memoirs and Ambrose's book, and which clearly states Winters went on Operation Plunder, please discuss and we can work out whether to add it back in. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with the above; the 101st wasn't involved in anyway with Varsity or Plunder. The info might have mistaken Winters for Nixon, who did jump with the 17th as an advisor. Skinny87 (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Nickname

His nickname is placed at the top of the article in boldface quotes. I removed. To the extent that I understand Wikipedia style, and I am very new at this, I don't think that's appropriate. He is not a mobster, and it just doesn't seem properly dignified or respectable. Patton was known as "blood and guts" and I don't see that in the first reference to him in that article. I think that proper dignity and respect requires that we show the same courtesy to Winters. MajorStovall (talk) 15:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this edit. — AustralianRupert (talk) 01:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Perhaps you can help me patrol some of these articles and remove the up-front nicknames. I can understand why people added them, as I was a devoted viewer of Band of Brothers myself. Watching that show made me feel kinship with these people. But we need to show restraint. MajorStovall (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. I just added Herbert Sobel's nickname in the info box then somebody decided to use it as a first reference.--Martin (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Death

Dick Winters has passed away:

http://www.majordickwinters.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4612

Paulus Gun (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm Not contesting whether or not he has passed away or not, but wikipedia policy on WP:BLP requires a more accurate source than a chat room notice. I removed the date of death until a proper source can be found. Thanks, and I'll keep my eye out for any developments.--Jojhutton (talk) 20:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Not only that but Major Winters is a very well known figure in military history given the book and miniseries Band of Brothers, and since his legendary attack at Brecourt Manor has been taught to every US Army officer since World War II. I think the major news sources would have reported on his death.24.46.236.67 (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)