Talk:Dick Grayson

Batman Begins homage

Let me preface this with the fact that I haven't read any of the comic books in question. But the bit about wings giving Grayson's Batman the ability to glide being an homage to Batman Begins seems incorrect. I don't know about the comics, but the early 90s Timmverse/DCAU, Dick's Nightwing costume has had gliding abilities built-in. So he's had the gliding thing since at least 10 years before Nolan's films, possibly earlier if it was in the comics as well... 76.123.241.114 (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed.129.139.1.68 (talk) 15:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit requests

{{Edit protected}} I would like to request that some edits be added back to the article:

• My clean-up edits from this edit because they are simply clean-up edits and not related to the disputes.
• User:88.104.209.188's edits from this edit because it is just an additional detail added to the article and not related to the disputes.
• User:76.21.120.205's edits from this edit because they are simply clean-up edits and not related to the disputes.

-5- (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done - J Greb (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

{{Edit protected}} Sorry, but there's another one. At the end of the following paragraph there's an extra unnecessary space:

Dick Grayson appeared as Robin and later Nightwing on Batman: The Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures, voiced by Loren Lester. The ten-year old version of the character was voiced by Joey Simmrin in the Emmy Award winning two-part episode "Robin's Reckoning", which provided Dick's origin story. While much of Dick's past remained the same, his costume was updated to the more modern look (with short sleeves and long pants), exactly like Tim Drake's original Robin outfit. "Batgirl Returns" establishes that Dick and Barbara Gordon attend the same college and that they have a fairly mutual romantic attraction to each other, but neither one knows that the other is secretly Robin and/or Batgirl, respectively (despite having collaborated in "Shadow of the Bat", albeit without getting along), and their relationship is one of the plot elements of Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero. Dick quit being Robin and left Gotham in the episode "Old Wounds", after coming to blows with Batman over the Dark Knight's controlling and ruthless behavior, even to the point of punching Batman in the face. Years later, Dick returned as Nightwing, and while he would work with Batman, the two never fully reconciled. Nightwing does however establish a strong working bond with his replacement, Tim Drake. Barbara Gordon also showed a desire to renew their relationship. <--It's right here.

Sorry to be bothering with minute details, but it bugs me.-5- (talk) 21:38, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

That's ridiculous, you can't even tell the difference in the article. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

{{Edit protected}} See above. It can't take that much effort to do.-5- (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Easy enough, but a waste of administrator time none the less. I've made the edit in conjunction with the request below. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:51, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit protected 2.0

{{Edit protected}} As the current edit war seems to be over content issues regarding the reduction of the number of non-free images, but the number of non-free images is back-up to 9, I was wondering if we could re-insert {{non-free-lists}} or {{too many photos}}, just to bring focus back to issue of non-free minimal use. -Sharp962 (talk).

Is there agreement that these tags are needed/appropriate? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I would say yes. The intitial placement of the tags was uncontested. The tag was ultimately removed due by an anon editor active for less than a month (which I assume to equate in to lack of understanding of fair-use and implications of violation of policy). The additional discussion of the excess of non-free images has been posted and supported on the WP: Comics proj talk page, which has been uncontested. -Sharp962 (talk) 16:23, 30 September 2010 (UTC).

I was hoping for assent from some other editors actually. But as no one has opposed this, I have added the tag. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:50, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

In light of these problems, perhaps it would be best to remove all pictures from the "In Other Media" section? People interested in pictures can follow the links to the expanded sections on Robin/Nightwing in other media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.120.205 (talk) 23:31, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that sounds like a good idea. -Sharp962 (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC).

Images between Dick Grayson and Robin

• Dick Grayson
• Robin (comics)
• Nightwing

I looked over the images in history which have been removed from here, and every one of them was a picture of Dick grayson as Robin.

In my opinion, this is what we should have for pictures:

The Infobox should have an image of a fairly current Dick Grayson out of costume, NOT an image of Robin in it.

The image of Robin should be moved down to the section on Robin the boy wonder. (And an image of him as a kid, out of costume, might also be helpful.)

Every different costume/persona that Dick Grayson was. That means only two Robin images: the original Batman and Robin image and one from the Titans era.

All the other Dick Grayson-as-Robin images should be moved/merged to Robin (comics) and/or Robin in other media.

The two main Nightwing costumes should appear here (the yellow winged waist of the Titans era, and the "new look" from the ongoing series).

And of course the Dick as Batman image.

The Robin article covers more characters than just Dick, so that page should probably be an overview of the different ways Robin has been portrayed. So the "Robin in comics"-related images should go there. And since there is a Robin in other media article, the "in other media" images should go there.

Same with the Nightwing overview page.

I also think that (unlike the single story/arc appearances of alternate versions) there should be an image (and maybe an infobox - see also Robin (Earth-Two)) on this page of the Dick Grayson of Earth-2 and Deathwing. - jc37 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, the infobox has had a history of being a trouble spot. Looking at what we'd like to be aiming at based on the Comic project guide line - the most recognized design for the character - Dick Grayson comes in a distant third to either "Robin" or "Nightwing". And the last time the issue was raised here, a strong argument was made that to a more general audience, the "Robin" character design was more recognized as Grayson than Nightwing. Grudgingly, I agree with that even if it would be "easier" or "common sense" to match article title to character design. Also, I don't see a problem with 2 or more articles "sharing" infobox content.

The two current Nightwing images and the Batman one I agree are reasonable here. Though there is an issue with the placement of the "wings" version.

As for the "Other versions" and "In other media"... thoughts tend to be a mixed bag.

• IOM seems clear cut.
  • For the most part the material can be moved lock, stock, and barrel to Robin in other media. The images can sit there and the Nightwing appearances can be minimized there.
  • The actual Nightwing material can be moved to Nightwing#In other media with the Robin aspects being minimized. A {{See}} pointing to Robin in other media should complete the information.
  • A minimized version should be retained here. No sub-heads, just an over view of how the character has been adapted outside of comics.
  • And there are a number of IOM tidbits that are questionable at best for inclusion
    • Birds of Prey (TV series) - The character never appeared, it was just mentioned. That seems like trivia.
    • Nolan series - Same issue
    • Teen Titans [film] - And again
    • The Teen Titans Nightwing design. This and the Nightwing look from The Batman were pulled from the Nightwing IOM as "One shot appearance".
• The AV is a lot more cluttered.
  • In some respects it needs its own "See also" section to point to the Earth-2 Robin article, Alternate versions of Robin, and an AV section on Nightwing.
  • Deathwing can move from AV Robin to AV Nightwing.
  • Aside from Batman Beyond (the current limited series), a shortened version of the "alts" can exist here with the details, and images, sitting elsewhere.
  • Given the current Batman Beyond is currently at issue 4 of 6, the reveal may still be subject to a plot twist and might need to be moved in the end.
  • If there are any AVs of Grayson that weren't showcased as "Robin" or "Nightwing", like the BB one is looking to be, they should be here as well.

- J Greb (talk) 02:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The reason for that is because in most cases, there is only one article covering the person (or persons). In this case, we have 3. (There are few characters with such a long and varied history.) And the other two cover 2 of the three you mention.

So WP:IAR applies - you even said it when you mentioned "common sense".

And Deathwing is an alternate version of Dick Grayson as Nightwing. And wasn't a single story alternate version, which is why I mentioned him. Same with the Earth-2 version. - jc37 16:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding "other media" I think the pruning makes great sense. AV also seems perfect as well. As for the box image, JGrebs suggestion of a simple Dick picture seems to work, I'm just straining to figure from where. My best suggestions are either New Teen Titans prior to the start of Nightwing, or some internal art from Nightwing or Batman. -Sharp962 (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC).

True, there should be a decent Perez era Dick-not-in-costume-or-disguise image out there from the `80s. The concern I've got is that changing the infobox image on this article has been thorny each time it's been broached. I'd also hope that if we hit a consensus on using a Grayson image, that it finally stabilizes the issue. - J Greb (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I had a little time, and so I started hunting. There are the coverage images for the Prodigal storyline or Battle for the Cowl #1 alt cover. Both are a little Robin light however (The Prodigal atleast features all three costumes). There is a Nightwing Annual I believe that has Dick running across the rooftop and shows the evolution of the character, but this fairly Batman light. This doesn't really broach the solo Dick pic, but some options. Without scoping out internal art, I think the Prodigal pic would be the most palettable as it alludes at least to all of Dick's incarnations. - Sharp962 (talk) 23:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC).

I fully agree with J Greb on pruning the IOM and AV sections. I'll be working on doing so as time permits, though I'd appreciate any help. In the interim period I've removed the images in question and the non-free image tag.Bluemage55 (talk) 15:40, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Batman Beyond

JGreb, the reference was not removed. There was a duplication of a section due to copy pasting error, but the reference remained. http://www.newsarama.com/comics/adam-beechen-batman-beyond-100318.html is the relevant reference, and clearly indicates that the Batman Beyond miniseries is a continuation of the animated series. Both the Batman Beyond and the Batman Beyond (2010) articles concur, as would a cursory reading of the actual miniseries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.120.205 (talk) 11:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia articles are not considered reliable sources.
2. Drawing a conclusion from the primary source is original research, which is not acceptable within the articles.
3. From the source you point to:

Nrama: How does this series tie into current DC continuity? Or does it?

Beechen: It fits in, in that it directly references specific, important incidents from the Batman comic book continuity that never tied into the show previously. Also, just as the show told us what became of some of the characters from the comic continuity, this series will tell us a little more about some characters we never saw in the show.

If we want to assign this mini to a specific continuity, this causes a problem - the DCU and the DCAU cannot be forced to match each other, they diverge too much. And even if we go down that road, it becomes OR real quick with editors here picking what makes this fit where.

The best we can say is that: "Beechen has stated he use Batman Beyond (the cartoon) as the primary basis for the series while tying it to the current DC continuity. He has set the story after the animated series ended and is using it to work in characters that had not appeared in the show, such as Dick Grayson..." and we go from there.

Last thing, if the other articles are indulging in OR as well, they may need to be looked at as well.

- J Greb (talk) 21:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It also states this:

Nrama: Will your mini-series explore the exact same Terry McGinnis we know from the series?

Beechen: Yup, same guy. Our story takes place after the animated series ends, so Terry's pretty experienced as Batman. But, as we'll see, he still has a lot to learn.

You misinterpreted the question you quoted. That asks how it ties into the *DC comics continuity*, whereas the portion I quoted addresses how it fits into the *DCAU continuity*. It's been stated in that interview, and elsewhere (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/Interview__Adam_Beechen_on_Batman_Beyond, http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25300), that the miniseries is in continuity with the DCAU, but is also an attempt to tie it to the DC comics universe. The other links found on the Batman Beyond (2010) page also suggest the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.120.205 (talk) 03:04, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, when Beechen's answer includes "...Batman comic book continuity...", the question and answer stop refferring to the DCAU.

When both questions about the content of the mini are asked, with the given answers, it stops being a support for the mini being a direct continuation of the show. That is unless to cherry pick to support your particular fan POV.

- J Greb (talk) 04:10, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

From http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/Interview__Adam_Beechen_on_Batman_Beyond:

"The series ended in 2001, but due to popular demand, DC Comics is returning to the world of Batman Beyond in a 6-issue limited series that picks up where the animated series left off."

"MA: What made you decide to keep this in continuity with the cartoon, rather than just starting with your own take?

AB: It was an editorial request to give the miniseries a link to the cartoon so that, if DC decided to draw the cartoon tighter into its mainstream continuity, it could do so. I think we’ve come up with a story that does that."

MA: I've heard you will be making an effort to tie the Batman Beyond universe in with current continuity; any hints on how you'll do that? And do you think there's a difficulty in making future stories "count" with the fans?

AB: We’ll be name-checking a lot of stuff from current continuity, and our story has to do directly with Batman’s comic book past. And making this story “count” was never a problem because, once we had the basic idea, there was never any doubt it was going to “count” for both fans of the books and the cartoons.

AB: Our story takes place before Epilogue, but some of the things we learned in that episode may be seeded in our miniseries, yes.

From:http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25300

Set within the DC Animated Universe (DCAU) along with shows like "Batman: The Animated Series" and "Justice League Unlimited," the series introduced the world to Terry McGinnis, Bruce Wayne’s successor as Batman, the protector of Neo Gotham circa 2039.

From: http://comics.ign.com/articles/110/1103267p1.html

While a slightly older Terry appeared several times during the course of Justice League Unlimited, this comic looks to be set during the timeline of the original Beyond show.

Is there any particular reason you are arguing that the comics are not in DCAU continuity? I'm sure you could cherry pick some quotes that might be interpreted as supporting the idea that they are not, but when the majority of the articles on the subject all suggest the same, why are you working to oppose it? Have you watched the DCAU and read the miniseries in question? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.120.205 (talk) 05:52, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Bluntly? All three of the interviews are clear that both continuities are in play. Stopping short at the answers that say "show continuation" is using the sources dishonestly.

As for the review - it relies on what are considered "weasel words" with in a Wikipedia article to guess at the continuity the mini is set it.

- J Greb (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

There's no disagreement that both continuities are in play. All the interviews make it clear that the series attempts to tie into the DC comics continuity (and reading the primary source thus far it's referring to the inclusion of Hush, Signalman, and Calendar Man), but that does not mean it is not set in the DCAU.

All of the linked sources, as well as the primary source, make it clear that the show is both set in the DCAU, and has ties to the DC comics continuity. That is why there are numerous quotes that state that the miniseries is in continuity, how the the story is set after "Return of the Joker" but before "Epilogue", how the writers are fact-checking carefully to make sure that it matches the DCAU, and at the same time, why we see elements from the comics (Hush, Signalman, Calendar Man) that have never been seen in the DCAU before (but do not in any way contradict DCAU canon).

Did you instead interpret the interviews to mean that it is in a completely new continuity? And if so, why? Again, I'd like to ask if you have watched Batman Beyond/RotJ and read the comics in question? It's very readily apparent that the series takes place after RotJ, as Terry meets with Tim Drake and those events (which never existed in any other continuity) are referenced directly. Although I understand Wikipedia policy is not to use primary sources, they may help you understand the issue in question. 76.21.120.205 (talk) 01:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Hot pants?

The article should discuss why Batman chose to dress Robin in hot pants. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 18:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)