Talk:Second Matabele War

Title and topic

I am sure the title of this article is as contentious as Second Chimurenga/Rhodesian Bush War and the arguments for the current title and those for First Chimurenga are similar. However, an added problem of the title Second Matabele War is that it provides no scope for discussion of the events in Mashonaland, which were intimately linked, for example by the work of the medium Mukwati. So, as expected, I favour First Chimurenga. Babakathy (talk) 16:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The linkage between the First Matabele War and Second Matabele War is strong, and that segway is not captured in the name First Chimurenga. It might help this discussion to know if you also are in favor of renaming the First Matabele War. - Ctatkinson (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware for an alternative name for the First Matabele War. I follow the need for linkage to that war; the linkage to the First Chimurenga in Mashonaland is also important - especially since it was during the same year. The latter conflict is not recorded at all, even in Chimurenga, except in the individual articles on Nehanda Nyakasikana and Kaguvi Gumboreshumba. I would like to make a contribution on this conflict, but it is impossible to record the war in Mashonaland under the title Second Matabele War.Babakathy (talk) 12:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I get your point that you cannot contribute to this article because of the name. The article states at the very beginning that the Second Matabele War also goes by the name First Chimurenga, so these two conflicts are of course one in the same. The current article doesn't have much on the conflict in Mashonaland and your addtions would be appreciated by everyone. I don't know a lot about the war in Mashonaland, but I would be willing to help out. -- Ctatkinson (talk) 03:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that it is not impossible, so I may as well get started. But it will look rather odd having a section on Mashonaland in an article whose title implies it is about conflict between the Matabele (and the British): the Shona and Ndebele are two distinct peoples, and the BSAC authorities did divide the country into Mashonaland and Matabeleland even in the 1890s. It is rather like having an article on the Anglo-Zulu war containing a section on conflicts between the British and Xhosa.Babakathy (talk) 10:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at what I have added and see what you think.Babakathy (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellent additions! I moved around some of the paragraphs to fit within the new sections. Feel free to copy-edit.

In terms of the name of the article, none of the traditional names for the Anglo-Ndebele, Anglo-Shona, Ndebele-Shona conflicts of this period adequately characterize the events; however, the names of many wars involving multiple peoples/tribes are often less than optimal. At the time of these events, the press refered to this rebellion as the conflict in Matabeleland, in part because Mlimo is credited with starting the uprising, in part because the war in Matabeleland began several months prior to the war in Mashonaland, in part because the Anglos were historically more scared of the Ndebele, in part because the First Matabele War took place only a couple of years earlier, and in part because maps of the period all depicted the entire region as Matabeland, even though this too was not a wholly accurate depiction.

I should also clarify here that I'm not a strong fan of either name: Second Matabele War or First Chimurenga. Neither name adequately captures these conflicts. Similarly the name Vietnam War in the West and the American War in Vietnam, don't adequately capture that conflict, but the name Second Indochina War is much better. I wish there were a broader category of naming for the conflicts in the Zimbabwe region, such as First Zimbabwe war, Second Zimbabwe war, Third Zimbabwe war, etc.; however, historians have not yet adopted this naming convention. -- Ctatkinson (talk) 17:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Casualties

For the Ndebele a staggering 50,000 are estimated. I would say this qualifies as "citation needed".--134.93.178.88 (talk) 13:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)