Talk:List of firsts in aviation

Different format?

Isn't there a more interesting format for this list? As it is, it is just an endless thud of firsts, with dates and piping tucked back into the text...very unlistish, and not very reader-friendly. Chronological order is there, but not easily evident nor is it easily comprehensible.

I would do this, but I fear I have a tin eye for graphics comparable to such folks' tin ear for music. On the other hand, if it truly offends even my tin eye, this article obviously needs help.

Georgejdorner (talk) 22:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Santos Dumont records

The recently deleted text about Santos is accurate and should be restored. The editor who deleted it said the FAI did not exist before 1905, but these flights took place in 1906 and were under official observation. His flights are indeed considered the first "official" ones to be made in Europe. I will wait for comment before making any change. DonFB (talk) 18:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I noted the "1905" not because Santos-Dumont only made his flights in 1906, but because the Wrights made theirs in 1903 and the next few years. It's a bit useless to note that a new French organisation recognised a "record" which was actually some years later than the true records, as they acknowledged later on, when they did become a neutral, international, well-recognised organisation. The 1906 "official" record was presented in the article as if it was, at the time, some universally recognised organisation, which it wasn't by far. I don't have a problem including his flights as the first made in Europe though (I hadn't thought of that angle) , but that wasn't what the text said. Fram (talk) 12:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point that people at the time believed SD had made the "first" flights anywhere. I also understand the French bias in favor of themselves and SD at the time. However, those issues don't change the fact that SD's 1906 flights were the first to be "officially" observed and thus were the first "official" flights in Europe. I am not aware of any source which has impugned the fairness of the official observations, even though they took place in a highly patriotic atmosphere. So we have two things: 1) the SD flights were the first to be "officially" observed anywhere (but not the first which actually happened), and 2) his flights were the first "official" flights in Europe. I'll go back to the article to make changes which express these facts. DonFB (talk) 00:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I reverted to text as it previously existed. The mention of "in Europe" is not actually required or needed, since the "official" observations make no mention of that. The article text remains accurate: first "officially" observed flight (anywhere) of at least 25 meters; and first "official" "world record". The qualifier of "official" is why this text is accurate, even though the "official" records themselves take no account of events which happened earlier. DonFB (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

When an official record later is recognised (by the same organisation) to have been in error, then it is struck from the lists (e.g. in sporting, when someone has cheated in some way). In this case, Santos-Dumont hadn't cheated, but the FAI was unaware of / ignoring the efforts of the Wright brothers. They later acknowledged that they had preceded the Santos-Dumont flight, e.g. in texts like this: "the first sustained and controlled heavier-than-air powered flight." And apparently the October 23 flight, which earned him the Archdeacon prize, wasn't registered by the FAI, and so shouldn't be indicated as "official" anyway[1]. Fram (talk) 07:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I can live with that modification, and I'm glad to see the entries restored rather than deleted. However, I stand by my belief that FAI does not formally or "officially" recognize in its lists any flight before the FAI and its predecessors came into existence. I am not aware that the FAI has recognized an "error" regarding SD, or "struck" any SD record from its lists. My point is that the 25 meter flight was the first to be "officially" observed, which is still true, not that FAI still believes it was the first actual flight. That article on the FAI website about the WB first flight is not an "official" policy statement from FAI. It is merely somebody's "contribution" to the FAI website (and contains its own inaccuracies). The subject nagged at me for quite a while, and I wrote to the FAI and they replied to me: "The flight of the Wright Brothers has been considered a historical event but never has been given an official 'grade' by the FAI." Of course, I would not cite a private email as a reference in an article, but that bit of correspondence seems to speak for itself. DonFB (talk) 08:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I was rather unclear/ I didn't mean that they have struck any achievement of Santos-Dumont from their lists, I meant that they have acknowledged that "the first sustained and controlled heavier-than-air powered flight" was made by the Wrights, which means that "First flight certified and registered" by the FAI should not be read as "the FAI has certified that this, and not the Wright Brothers one, was the first flight ever", but as "this was chronologically the first successful flight where FAI officials were present". Fram (talk) 09:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

jimmy doolittle

aviation first take and landing on instruments 1929