Talk:Heteronormativity

removed

removed a pieces that hurt the flow of the article, and a couple that were one-sided arguments vs. being merely informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badtoaster (talk • contribs) 16:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but removing large and referenced sections of an article without getting the consensus of others is not the way things are done on Wikipedia. Leave the sections as they are and explain here why you think specific content should be removed. --Biker Biker (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I was abiding by the census. The comments here are all about how the article is one-sided, trying to put a negative spin on heteronormativity by portraying it as a form of discrimination instead of a social norm. There are extra bits of argument that don't belong in the article, such as a pointless piece trying to connect it to racial stereotyping and an unfounded claim that families with heterosexual parents are no healthier for children then families with same-sex parents. Badtoaster (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It is important to provide balance in an article and sometimes this involves representing views that may be unpleasant to some - assuming those views are held by more than a tiny minority and are properly sourced. See WP:DUE. Hopefully others will add their opinions. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I had the same thought as you at first, although the term as most frequently used is much closer to heterosexism as discrimination than a pure social norm. As such I agree that it seems like a misnomer, but the term most commonly refers to the discriminatory aspects (often unintentional).

The claim about children's development relating to their parent's sexual orientation is sourced, and immediately followed by two sourced counterpoints. I would prefer higher quality references to counterpoints if available (we are currently comparing a developmental psychologist to a pundit and an ethicist). It would be preferable to find better sources and expand the article or replace content with better sourced information, rather than delete well sourced information that you happen not to agree with. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Balance is fine, this is an issue of non-balance though. Only one side of the viewpoint was represented, I have made a few edits in an effort to rectify the problem. Bakkster Man's edit solved one issue. The racism paragraph does not fit the topic so I removed it. A few words were edited out (unfair, ect.) where their only purpose was to create a one-sided argument out of the article itself instead of representing that side of the argument.Badtoaster (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

There isn't a consensus. A consensus is an agreement between 1) the editors and 2) a sufficient number of editors. One editor's comments are about how it's one-sided and the editor was encouraged to find reliable sources to back up his or her other claims. One editor was uncertain and enlisted the assistance of the LGBT Project. My edits were made by expanding the article with sourced material. In fact, the discussion died out after I added sourced material.

The "unfounded" claim you mention is actually well-founded, given that the source is a licensed developmental psychologist who was called to testify as an expert in court and provided a review of the literature on child development. All other aspects that you removed were sourced by experts--noted by their professions and their publications--in the field of study.

As was discussed on this article's discussion page, the inherent definition of the subject is that it is negative, and there's no avoiding that. Depicting it accurately means that you depict it as it is defined and as it is debated; and I reiterate Biker's statement: assuming those views are held by more than a tiny minority and are properly sourced. It is defined as privileged and biased, which is also supported by expert scholarly debate, and has also been defended as positive by at least one non-authority commentator and an expert ethicist. As a general comment to keep in mind, individuals often mistake neutrality as representing all sides equally in all topics, when true neutrality is representing the debate as it objectively exists--either equally divided or with the majority of experts supporting one side and a minority of experts on the other. Taking a, say, 70/30 split and representing it as 50/50 would be inaccurate and vice versa. That is why it is important to see if dissenting expert opinions exist and add them. If they don't, then the reality is a majority vs. minority opinion, and removing majority opinion will result in a specious portrayal of the issue.

The term has been expanded to include its effect on other minority groups beyond gays and lesbians, and those claims are also cited. That the term has expanded to cover its effect on other minorities isn't "pointless", but a factual, sourced observation of the evolution of the term and how it is viewed by experts in the field of political and social theory. It "fits the topic" because expert opinion connects the two. It wouldn't fit the topic if it was mentioned extraneously and without a source.

You're welcome to add more dissenting opinion, but that should be done by adding information that is properly cited and from reliable third-party sources rather than by removing sourced counter-information.Luminum (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. While I think it's possible that the content relating to racism is potentialy fringe, it has 3 citations and should probably stay. If we can find a critique to this viewpoint, I would love to add it. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

There were two at that point (they were different page citations for the same overall text), but I've since added a third. I'll see if I can find a critique.Luminum (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that clarified the link between the term and the section. Bakkster Man (talk) 19:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that the racial and minority views section constitutes a fringe view. I can find no serious academic discussion of it, only one off writings and think it should be removed. - Schrandit (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I see three corroborating sources for that section. Unless you can show that all of them are 'fringe' authors, it should probably stay as it's highly linked to this topic. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:04, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Having more than one author doesn't mean it is not a fringe opinion. - Schrandit (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but if these are respected authors, it significantly reduces that likelyhood. Are we aware of the author's credibilities? I see a political science professor and a sociology professor (probably credible). I also don't see this as "departing significantly" from the mainstream topic of heteronormativity, part of the definition of a fringe theory.

That said, I think it makes sense to leave this discussion in unless it can be shown to be fringe (dismissive responses from other experts in the subject) or can be discredited (the authors themselves are not depending on science). At the same time, reference in a peer-reviewed publication would also be good to add. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Badtoaster comes off as a bad-hand POV account with similar distaste for gay people that has been the flavor of contention for another editor here intent on removing content they don't like. Calling content fringe is a mask for POV edit-warring in this case. The reason Schrandit couldn't find any serious academic discussion is because they either didn't look at all or didn't know where to look [1] 71.139.39.160 (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Rainy day in San Fransisco was it? Did you actually take a peek at those google scholar results? There are plenty of articles that use the word heteronormativity and the word racial in the same article but very rarely in the same sentence and even fewer seem to be arguing the position that our article currently advances. Can we take a look at the text of the 3 articles we currently cite? - Schrandit (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't be a dick. If you want to disagree with the quality of the articles, go ahead, but there's no point in a personal attack, even if they are anonymous. I do agree that reviewing the position is reasonable, but the absence of peer-reviewed articles in the top of a Google search isn't proof of lack of discussion. Let's take that search as a starting-off point for finding improved sources, and hopefully put this issue beyond discussion. Bakkster Man (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Some 4000 links suggest that the search demonstrates the topic has been given serious academic discussion directly refuting Schrandit's assertion that it has not. Sources are readily available showing the topic is not a fringe theory. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 22:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

This is far from my first interaction with that ip range. The fact that google turns up 4000 results when you punch in heteronormativity and race shows that google is an expansive search engine. The fact that none of those results show a combination of the two subjects indicate that this is likely fringe material. Are the cited documents avaliable for viewing somewhere? - Schrandit (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

My viewpoint on homosexuality is not of any importance here, I came across this page and was annoyed by how the article was worded in a one-sided manner. It is my understanding that wikipedia is supposed to be an unbiased source of information, not a debate platform. There were/are instances of phrasing where the editors personal opinion is too obvious. The racial tie in for instance, sourced or not, has no real relevance to the subject that I can tell, besides perhaps an editor overtly trying to tie in the subject mater to a readers feelings towards racial discrimination. I specifically started a wikipedia account to balance articles like this that offer only a negative or positive slant to the subject matter. Badtoaster (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Badtoaster those are reasons to improve the writing not to delete the material. Schrandit if those documents are searchable on Google generally they are available, you should know that. And my previous interactions with Schrandit can be best seen at article on Equality Mississippi where they edit warred to removed sources repeatedly. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 23:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, we are only talking about removing a paragraph here, not a whole page so calm down. Secondly, that part of the writing cannot be improved as (again) it is irrelevant to the subject matter. If I added a passage about the gay pride parade, it would possibly have a loose connotation to the subject but would not have any real relevance. The topic here is one of perceived social norms regarding sexuality and not an issue about racial discrimination, thus that paragraph should be removed entirely in my opinion. Badtoaster (talk) 23:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree, there is no relevence to the topic and the sourcing is dubious. The paragraph should either be removed or drastically restructured to conform to WP:UNDUE. - Schrandit (talk) 23:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I am calm so please don't insinuate I'm not. The paragraph is clearly stating the broader input that heteronormativity is not merely about whom someone has sex with and it impacts in many sociological areas and specifically cites race and people of color. The content is therefore useful to the subject and certainly relevant. Sociologists view homophobia and racism as similar social issues on different aspects of culture that often intersect. They have been studied and reported on many times and entire books are devoted to these subjects. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 23:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Even if homophobia were a form of racism, it would not infer that racism is a form of homophobia. Also, despite some people who confuse the two topics, neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals are a "race" so they are clearly two seperate subjects. The way the article is currently written, one would be lead to believe that a person who dislikes homosexuals would probably also descrimante bassed on race. I don't think there is enough corolation between the two subjects for it to be included here.Badtoaster (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure where your leaping that logic from but the point remains that heteronormativity also has been shown in academic discussion to also concern racial issues. Whether you like it or not the subjects have been studied and reported on. Racism and homophobia are both social constructs and both have been studied in academic literature in relation to heteronormativity. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 01:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The paragraph is mostly one woman's opinion and then two sentences of someone agreeing with her, it is hardly a wealth knowledge from in-depth studies. I do not find find the opinions of two people relevantly significant here and I do not think they speak for the majority. Racial discrimination is a separate topic all together and should not be confused with the topic at hand, not even if you sited three people. Badtoaster (talk) 02:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link to hundreds of books written by more than those three. [2] We should consider who is indeed an authority on the subject and see what they state. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 03:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous, would you care to select any 1-3 peer-reviewed writings on the subject and cite the relevant sections here? If you can find them, then the paragraph clearly belongs and an explanation of the role race plays in 'heteronormative' discrimination (ie, certain races are viewed as more likely to be non-heteronormative). If all we have are Google searches showing that the two words appear in the same paper, then we aren't any closer to determining if this is a fringe theory or not.

On the other side of the coin, can anyone show that these three authors cited in the article are either credible or radical members of their fields? Rather than assuming these three are radicals because you don't agree or like the paragraph, show they are radicals. As they say, 'put up or shut up'. Bakkster Man (talk) 03:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

This seems sensible Bakkster. A quick google search didn't turn up much information on either person. I can look more in the morning but I don't get the impression that they are very well known. For the record though Anonymous, writing books doesn't always make someone an expert. I have written hundreds of poems, a few of them award winning and published, but no one is quoting me as an expert on the poem page because frankly my opinion on the subject doesn't matter. In this case, I can't see how the opinions of two people represnt an entire social perception of what is normal. I certainly don't think they can merge this topic with the completely seperate topic of race.Badtoaster (talk) 04:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I've punched around google a bit and I can't find much, I also can't find the text to some of our sources for the section. I see your flip-side argument Bakkster but it seems (particularly from the google scholar results) that the idea that heteronomativity is racist is so strange that very very few people have ever bothered to examine it in the first place so the lack of a academic rebuttle would be logical. - Schrandit (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, the eagerness to remove content because Schrandit's Google punching fails again is troubling and plain wrong.

• 1. [3], Ignoring the Sexualization of Race: Heteronormativity, Critical Race Theory and Anti-Racist Politics
• 2. [4] From Homophobia and Heterosexism to Heteronormativity: Toward the Development of a Model of Queer Interventions in the University Classroom - "By examining homophobia and heterosexism within the larger context of heteronormativity at the intersections of race, class, and gender, I propose, in this article, a model of queer interventions in the university classroom. The article is divided into three sections. First, I describe the conceptual terrain of homophobia, heterosexism, and heteronormativity, and their potential limitations. Second, I present an integrative model, using heteronormativity as the central site of violence, to examine homophobia at the intersections of race, class, and gender within the larger social and cultural domain (macroscopic level) and interpersonal context (microscopic level) and illustrate this model with specific classroom activities. Finally, I discuss the implications of the model for teaching and theorizing about homophobia, heterosexism, and heteronormativity."
• 3. [5] The Gender Caste System: Identity, Privacy, and Heteronormativity
• 4. [6] Rethinking Homophobia: Interrogating Heteronormativity in an Urban School, "This article challenges the reader to think of homophobia as a negative social force affecting all members of an urban school community. The author argues that homophobia can only be undone if it is attacked at the intersection of race, class, and gender."
• 5. [7] Blood and desire: The secret of heteronormativity in adoption narratives of culture
• 6. [8] Texts of Our Institutional Lives: From Transaction to Transformation: (En)Countering White Heteronormativity in "Safe Spaces"
• 7. [9] "Now Why do you Want to Know about That?": Heteronormativity, Sexism, and Racism in the Sexual (Mis)education of Latina Youth
• 8. [10] Heteronormativity, Equality, and the Family: Beyond the Freedom to Marry
• 9. [11] Blogging the borders : Virtual skinheads, hypermasculinity, and heteronormativity = Les frontières bloguées : les skinheads viruels, la hypermasculinité et la hétéronormativité
• 10. [12] Moving Beyond the Inclusion of LGBT-Themed Literature in English Language Arts Classrooms: Interrogating Heteronormativity and Exploring Intersectionality

I'm sure there are many more but this should quickly demonstrate that academic sources do exist, this is not a fringe theory as alleged and many researchers have delved into these subjects. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting how little one can find about these authors when the first Google search about them seems to hammer in their authority:

• From the University of Chicago: "Cathy J. Cohen, is the David and Mary Winton Green Professor of Political Science. Cohen is the author of the book The Boundaries of Blackness: AIDS and the Breakdown of Black Politics (University of Chicago Press, 1999) and the co-editor with Kathleen Jones and Joan Tronto of Women Transforming Politics: An Alternative Reader (NYU, 1997). Her work has been published in numerous journals and edited volumes including the American Political Science Review, GLQ, NOMOS, and Social Text. Cohen is also editor with Frederick Harris of a new book series from Oxford Press entitled "Transgressing Boundaries: Studies in Black Politics and Black Communities." [13]

An explanation of what David and Mary Winton Green Professorship means: "The David and Mary Winton Green professorship is the result of a new $2 million gift to the school by David and Mary Winton Green made to recognize and support the work of a distinguished clinical faculty member." [14]

• Lorena Garcia as a PhD and Assistant Professor at University of California [15]

• From New York University on Patrick McCreery: "Patrick McCreery's teaching and research interests lie in the areas of sexual politics, family life, and social space—particularly in the United States of the last 60 years. At Gallatin, he has taught interdisciplinary seminars that focus on the politics of childhood, artistic representations of HIV-AIDS, and the relationship between urban space and sexual identity. His dissertation, "Miami Vice: Anita Bryant and the Discourses of Child Innocence and Homosexual Predation," examines Bryant's 1977 anti-gay campaign as a case study that illuminates the political efficacy of child-centered rhetoric. Professor McCreery has published essays in journals such as GLQ, New Labor Forum, Radical History Review, and Social Text. He is coeditor of the anthology Out at Work: Building a Gay-Labor Alliance. McCreery is also a recipient of Gallatin's Adviser of Distinction Award." [16]

Two sources from widely published academic professionals, one of whom is particularly distinguished compared to the other two. No where int he article does it state that this is a majority opinion or a minority opinion. Removing the authors, if anything, would suggest that the opinion is a majority opinion. Citing the authors in text demonstrates who says what. If you want to counter it, find sources that critique the opinion or depict it as a fringe or minority opinion. That is going to stand as the strongest argument against them. That section explores additional effects of heteronormativity, documented and debated by scholars. But saying that the sources consist of "some woman" or trying to diminish their notability by saying that you "just can't find anything" isn't going to cut it. It's all right there. Is it so difficult to find the sources you need? Let me know if you need help. Because I'm seeing a lot of "let's just take it down" instead of "let's prove our position". I keep suggesting the appropriate steps to take and I'm not seeing much action.Luminum (talk) 23:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that countering is an option here. Perhaps these two individuals Luminum have piles of published papers between them, but their choice of subject matter in this case (tying race to heteronormativity) seems to be on the fringe enough not to have roused the interest of critiquers as far as I can tell. As such, it should either be removed for being fringe or should be worded in such a way that it is clear that this is only the opinion of the two individuals listed and perhaps a small minority.

And for the record, sometimes cutting an article is the best way for improving it and it shouldn't be looked down on as an option. I too have suggested steps for improving the article, and my action would be to ask for a consensus to be formed on whether the best option is cutting or rewording. I vote for cutting personally as I think the two subjects are not connected despite a handfull of writers who think otherwise. Badtoaster (talk) 01:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed we have gone from a couple to a dozen now yet still you wish to claim this as a fringe theory and demand deletion. Please back up your claims with reliable sources that the rest of us can judge if your assertion of fringe theory merits any further investigation otherwise it feels exactly like I don't like it so remove it which is not how knowledge is built. 01:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.39.160 (talk)

Yes I do. Most of your links Anonymous do not connect the issues of race and heteronormativity, the ones that do don't necessarily do so to the same results as the paragraph here (a lot of the article descriptions seem to point to how heteronormativity affects different races and not claiming that is the same as racial discrimination). Frankly, it is a fringe view because it is a fringe view, I guarantee that you cannot produce one article stating that it is the viewpoint of the majority because it is in fact only the musings of a few people in the minority, even if those musings are by credited writers. And again, by that logic it should be worded as a viewpoint of the minority or taken out altogether as being too fringe as to be able to advance the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badtoaster (talk • contribs) 03:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Bingo. I read the anon's links and none of them appear to advance the idea that academia seriously contends that heteronormativity is racism. It looks like the results of a google scholar search for the words "hetronormative" and "racism". There are indeed papers that use both of those words, but few in the same sentence, and fewer that believe that one is a subset of the other.

To Luminum, I am all about including the minority viewpoint (in proper context) but if we're going to dump heteronormativity inside the category racism we really had better be pretty sure that the scholarly consensus is that it is racist. - Schrandit (talk) 08:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Well since homosexuals are not a race, then clearly being against homosexuality cannot be called racist. At best, similarities can be drawn between the two subjects or statistics could be shown (were there any) about how much more likely a person might be inclined to be racist as well. In either case, I can't see how it fits very well into this article. And again, we're talking about a social norm here, the abstract musings of a few writers do not represent society as a whole. Badtoaster (talk) 13:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Read that section of the article again. The connection being made is not heteronormativity is the same as, or leads to and causes racism. Instead, it is that certain racial minorities are stereotyped as non-heteronormative. The example shown is with Latina women being stereotyped as 'fiery' and thus more likely to have sex outside of marriage. In this instance, it would be a case of racial stereotypes feeding 'heteronormative' attitudes. The article seems clearly written to make this point (which seems to be correct), but if it can be improved so that misinterpretation isn't made, by all means do so. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

That just sounds strange. If racial minorities are seriotyped as poor does that make poverty racist? If racists try to seriotype minorities are non-heteronormative that does not make heteronormativity racist. - Schrandit (talk) 20:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

It really wouldn't surprise me if Badtoaster turned out to be puppet of Schrandit's, they seem to parrot each other with the same baseless assertions that are directly countered by reliable sources and reasoned explanations. Simply repeating fringe theory a hundred times and putting words in other users' mouths doesn't advance your position. Plenty of sources show that heteronormativity is at the intersection of race, gender and class as are many forms of discrimination. This is not fringe, it's rather typical line of thinking in sociology. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 15:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

That's funny coming from someone without an account. The reason Schrandit and I agree is because it's obviously fringe, nothing you have contributed proves otherwise. You cannot infer that the majority of society is racist simply for not approving of homosexuality. Maybe your personal opinions on the matter are getting in the way of your journalistic abilities, because any sensible person knows that papers written for the sake of academia have no real bearing on how society actually functions.Badtoaster (talk) 17:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a straw-man argument. The position advanced in those papers is not "the majority of society is racist simply for not approving of homosexuality". Rather, the position is that racial stereotypes exist before any heteronormative attitudes enter into it. The argument you believe is being made does not exist, and is not the topic of discussion. If the article text is somehow confusing that it has been misinterpreted that way, let's fix it. However, it seems that there is a large body of work linking pre-existing stereotypes of minorities to heteronormative viewpoints. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:59, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

What is the precise nature of that link? - Schrandit (talk) 20:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

From our article:

She found that heteronormative sexual education often utilized a "racial lens" that typified Latina girls as "excessively reproductive" compared to their white counterparts and "thus nonconforming to idealized heteronormative standards" resulting in sexual education that constructed Latina girls as "at risk."

In other words, if there is a racial or other stereotype that a minority is likely to have sex or live outside a monogamous marriage, they will be thought differently of, particularly in sex education as referred to explicitly. There is no saying heteronormativity is racist, nor that racism is caused by or causes heteronormativity. It only says that minority stereotypes in conjunction with heteronormativity can cause additional discrimination or differential treatment. That sounds reasonable to me, not reflecting as harsh against "simply for not approving of homosexuality", and well documented. I fail to see a compelling argument that this is fringe or otherwise in need of removal. Bakkster Man (talk) 22:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

So can we then removed the category Racism? - Schrandit (talk) 22:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The category racism isn't necessarily for topics that are racist, only related to racism. I agree that it's confusing, but we would need to change the policy of the category, remove the section, or split the part on heteronormativity and race to its own article (or merge somewhere more appropriate). I feel like moving the content to a more relevent article (sexuality and race, anything exist?) and then removing this category would be ideal, particularly if we could find other studies of similar intersections of race and sexuality. Bakkster Man (talk) 00:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand the scope of the category but I still think we're outside it. If we're going to say that some folks steriotype minorities an non-hetronormative there are plenty of other things that some folks seriotype minorities as being outside of that are not included in the racism category. Again, I understand the scope of the racism category but I see nothing being included in it due to a similar proximity.

Maybe an article on race and sexuality? - Schrandit (talk) 07:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Schrandit read the sources, we have a dozen so far and many of them helpfully include summaries. You and Badtoaster have lobbied to delete content you either don't like or approve. Those deletions were reverted same as much as your POV edit-warring on many articles related to gays and lesbians. Other Catholics don't come to Wikipedia to edit-war and remove content simply because they don't approve, they try to improve articles. You falsely remove categories and edit-warred to remove them even after multiple sources confirmed the categories were correct. You then slapped fact tag on numerous statements and now you're arguing against sources. If you can find reputable and reliable sources that racism has nothing to do with heteronormativity then please present those. Otherwise I think you've done everything you could to remove content here and given it a noble fight. Call it a day. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

After your blatent and failed attempt to misrepresent sources I'm done listening to anything you have to say on this matter. - Schrandit (talk) 22:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You're confusing me with someone else, I haven't attempted to edit any other page but this one. And you are the one loosing here, you just don't see it. There is no logical reason to try to merge these two separate topics and your links are bogus. You ask for proof that doesn't exist because you know the idea is so fringe that no one has cared to counter it. Kindly step aside and let unbiased editors cut the frill out, the paragraph is either getting reworded or cut but it is not staying as is because there is no justifiable reason for it being there. Badtoaster (talk) 22:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Bakkster, by your own reasoning the article is saying that heteronormativity combined with racism is potentially be a problem, but I could just as well say that racism and anger issues combined could be a problem. I don't see relevance for it here even as you put it, and I think it is not worded clear enough that the average reader would come to the same conclusions you did. If the majority felt that it should be kept and reworded so that the message is clearly that together those issues are problematic and not that one begits the other, then I would think that a fair solution. Otherwise, my vote stands for cutting it. Badtoaster (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Part of heteronormativity is the way it affects different people differently. The section in question discusses the disparate impact on people of color and other people who aren't necessarily queer. Why isn't this relevant? -- Irn (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't pick the topic to add, the authors who wrote about it did. See above where I suggest spinning off an article. Bakkster Man (talk) 00:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Both Schrandit and Badtoaster have demonstrated they have no interest in the subject area but to mitigate it's significance likely due to the connection to gays and lesbians (what they and the right-wingers call homosexuals). Instead of working to best represent what academic scholars have to say on the subject they argue to delete and remove that which they are woefully uninformed. When asked for sources I have listed reputable ones not affiliated with Catholic blogs. If you don't like what reliable sources state you likely should write your own blog where reasonable research doesn't have to be presented and anything you don't approve can be labelled as fringe or anything else you wish. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Bakkster Man, you reasonably express that perhaps the content could be moved to a more appropriate article, this is the article about heteronormativity and its connection to racism is likely best dealt with here. The only reason this is even being discussed is that Schrandit failed at removing the category Discrimination against homosexuals and is now trying to remove the Racism category. I appreciate the willingness to suspend doubt but we have a POV edit-warring editor simply eager to remove content they don't like. I caught Schrandit targeting gay and lesbian categories but they seem to have a record of doing this same kind of deteriorating work on hundreds of articles. Let's get more people to look into this style of editing and edit-warring so Schrandit's work can be seen for the value it has. Routine vandalism clean-up is one thing but POV-edit-warring is ungodly at best. 71.139.39.160 (talk) 01:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

POV edit warring aside, if there is another article that already deals with this topic (sexuality and race), this link might be best handled there. While Schrandit is likely targeting the category for no reason, I do agree that it seems odd to have an article with minimal links to race tagged in the racism cat. It might not be worth creating a whole new article, but if there's a better place it could be, let's throw it there. Bakkster Man (talk) 02:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Gents, in my defense I am not the user who instigated this discussion. - Schrandit (talk) 07:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, whoever recently moved the second paragraph from the intro down to a new section "Criticisms" made a really nice move. For now, the opening describes the concept well enough and is much less POV-heavy. Thanks for doing that.Luminum (talk) 17:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Amen. - Schrandit (talk) 07:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

That was me. I also read through the disscusion here and added a simple sentance pointing towards it being a scholoarly veiw, should apease everyone maybe. Feel free to reword or remove if you dissagree. Paperbeatsrock (talk) 13:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The popularity of said view also seems to be in contention. - Schrandit (talk) 20:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Considering the genesis of the exact term heteronormativity was in relation to this exact criticism (see the secion, origin of the term), I think it's silly to debate the 'popularity' of the viewpoint. That seems to be a given. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear there, I was mentioning the conection with racism as being contentious. - Schrandit (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy with the changes. And sorry, maybe I'm slow this morning but I'm still not getting what you're saying Schrandit.

Though I get your point Bakkster, now that there is a criticism section maybe there should be "support" section as well? Just because the term was coined as a criticism doesn't mean that everyone is going to dislike the definition. It is a social norm so a lot of people are going to be supportive of the idea, I'm sure it would be easy to find sources that find heteronormativity a logical or moral stance (even if they don't specifically use that word). Comments on this? Badtoaster (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested in finding some way to do this. The difficulty is, of course, that such articles or papers likely wouldn't use the term heteronormativity. So, we need to be careful that papers we cite fit within the subject. I have also linked to related terms and topics, such as Complementarianism. However, there isn't any reason to prevent a 'support' section. Perhaps in reference to 'proper' sexual relationships mirroring biological and reproductive processes? We already have this present (though not in a unique section) with the Somerville and Gallagher references. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:55, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually the criticism section should be banished and the content put into a logical place, at the very least a more neutral section title although several sentences don't seem to need their own section. In the same vein a support section is equally bad. This term comes from queer theory yet the first paragraphs dance around that this is about LGBT people being discriminated against and that it's a queer theory concept that has gained much acceptance in many fields. In this effort to de-gay this article we do a disservice to the subject and of course Wikipedia's reputation of not censoring content. That a POV-pusher wants to mitigate that this subject is all about gay people and it also encompasses racism topics should not stop reasonable and mature efforts to improve the article. 71.139.29.193 (talk) 19:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the consensus is that we have moved on from the topic racism (I have anyway), and I like the new criticism section. It makes a lot more sense being there then in the opening. Your posts always make me think that you have an agenda other then removing pov Anoynomous. Anyway, I like the idea of putting a "support" section together if we could find the sources for it. Badtoaster (talk) 03:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, (CAVEAT! I think the section needs a sentence explaining that such a connection appears to only be advocated by a very small number of people.).

Per the anon, probably just better to ignore him/her.

Here are a few things that came up from google for a possible "support" section;

• http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149918,00.html - Jada Pinkett's dust up at Harvard for defending the familiy as a positive institution.
• http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jun/07/world/fg-briefs7.2 - The Vatican, this source isn't great, I'm sure more can be found. The Chuch has issued many statements reflecting on how the family is best for children and society as a whole.
• http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/38239 - this Rabbi has covered the topic.
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1258349/Same-sex-parents-bad-children-contact-adults-genders.html - Baroness Deech, the top UK family lawyer says that the family is the best for children/society and that the law should reflect this.
• http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2004/09/The-Transatlantic-Divide-on-Marriagenbsp-Dutch-Data-and-the-US-Debate-on-Same-Sex-Unions - Heritage says Dutch homosexual marriage led to the collapse of the family there. - Schrandit (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Good research. Write something up!

As per POV vs. NPOV, remember that this applies to the article text, not the topic. This topic is inherently a point-of-view, our challenge is to describe these POVs without giving an inherent bias to our writing. In other words, the article will have criticisms and supporting texts, our writing just shouldn't assume it to be correct. I will agree that having a section titled "Criticism" is generally less preferable than having both the support and critical sources (which there should be for each other section). It should be fixed when possible, but I don't think we need to delete the content. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem I have with this (and with the idea of a support section in general) is that these sources are not actively advocating heteronormativity, but rather are making heteronormative arguments. So unless people actually start defending heteronormativity -- and not making heteronormative arguments in defense of nuclear families or whatever -- I think a support section constitutes WP:OR because they rely on the editors' interpretation to "reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". -- Irn (talk) 18:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

True that, true that. Again, this was just a simple search but how do you about the daily mail article by the top family lawyer saying that the family was better than any thing else and that the state should preserve it to the exlcusion of any thing else. A lof of these articles talk about heteronormative concepts with out ever using the term heteronormative. Maybe we could just quote a few sources without much summarizing so as to avoid an potental OR problems? - Schrandit (talk) 20:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I feel like, on any given subject, there's a heteronormative argument to be made and one critical of heteronormativity. Making the heteronormative argument doesn't necessarily make one a supporter of heteronormativity so we could only include it in some sort of "support for x aspect of heteronormativity" section. I think the real problem here is that heteronormativity as a concept carries a negative connotation intentionally – like racism or chauvinism. What matters most in understanding it isn't to see what people think about it (i.e. criticism versus support) but rather to understand how it affects people. If people have different opinions on its effects, then maybe we can go from there. -- Irn (talk) 21:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sold on the idea that heteronormativity as a concept is evil like racism (I suppose practice, can an idea be evil?). You are right that there are wavering definitions of the subject (thought - has an authoritative source made a succinct definition?) and this will make things very difficult but there are scholars out there who have said that the family is the building block of society and that as such society should cater to the family to the exclusion of other relationship and incentivise the family to the exclusion of other relationships. Would you see that as broad support for heteronormativity? - Schrandit (talk) 22:32, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

You don't need to think that heteronormativity is evil; my point was just that heteronormativity was created with a negative connotation. Thus, people don't come out and support it explicitly – like with racism or chauvinism – but rather support aspects of it. That could change, but from what I see right now, the word's use is restricted to criticism. As for the example you give, yes, I would consider that evincing support for heteronormativity. However, that's just my opinion, which is where the problem lies. -- Irn (talk) 23:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and I suppose evil is a strong word for an encyclopedia. I suppose we'll just have to try all the harder to provide contrary opinions without hitting the synth trip-wire. Let me know what you think. - Schrandit (talk) 04:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Why do you "suppose we'll just have to try all the harder to provide contrary opinions"? Honestly, I think that the use of the word and concept is pretty much restricted to queer theory as I don't see either as having really gained traction beyond that. Given that, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to be searching out support where there is none. I don't doubt that there are people who would in theory support heteronormativity if they were familiar with it. But until they become familiar with it and start actually supporting it in reliable sources, I don't see the point of searching out contrary opinions. If we have to try harder to find and include them, it seems we're heading into WP:UNDUE territory. -- Irn (talk) 17:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

UNDUE concerns are not illogical, I think we can find sources who understand they are dealing with heteronormative concepts and supporting them, I also think there is no shortage of significant sources.

As usual Schrandit has shown their cards again. The research in families and well-being of children shows that children are best served by having loving and supportive parents regardless of sexuality or gender. This s of course inconvenient for those wishing to push their POV that gay parenting is inferior. Irn is indeed correct that this is novel research not supported by sources. Those are not peer-reviewed studies comparing heterosexual compared to gay couples. 71.139.29.193 (talk) 03:38, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

No, bad research, again. Treat the subject neutrally and use the best sourcing possible. Of the sources Schrandit offers above only one even has the word heteronormative and is from Bill O'Reilly blustering about Jada Pinkett Smith. This is a good example why sources need to be of a high caliber and actually speak of the subject. Jada Pinkett Smith is no expert but an incidental line could be potentially added somewhere if her incident seems notable. Meanwhile don't fix a POV-pushing problem by shoveling on more POV-pushing. Use the best sources and perhaps insist they actually are about this subject directly. Though the Vatican I'm sure is regarded as the ultimate authority by certain editors we can actually look to those who are experts on the subject. 71.139.29.193 (talk) 17:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

As long as we have sources which deal with the subject directly, we should include them. Both sides should be covered, and if one side happens to have more reliable sources the reader can make their own inferences from that. For some additional references, I've found the following:

Potential Impact of Homosexual Parenting on Children, The; Wardle, Lynn D.

Division of labor among lesbian and heterosexual parents: Associations with children's adjustment., although I think it would be a stretch to consider the heterosexual couples as heteronormative, with the husbands reporting less than half of all work types, including decision making.

Again, just because the research isn't as 'good' doesn't mean we should leave it out. If the best that can be found are pundits and other non-researchers, then the article will be NPOV, even if the weight of the evidence tips a certain way. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

No doubt, I in no way believe that the principle of airing both sides means we have to treat both arguments as equally valid. At the end of the day, only one of these is right, it makes sense to put up as many legitimate sourced statements as we can and to let the reader decide. If there are more statements favoring one side then so be it. - Schrandit (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that using the word "heteronormativity" is necessary as long as the research deals with the same subject and definition. It should be fairly easy to find papers on heterosexual couples being more beneficial for children, or how a traditional family unit provides a stronger base for a society. There is even one scholar (who I can't remember their name at the moment) who wrote a paper crediting the fall of Rome to the fact that they were moving away from traditional marriage. Seems to me that papers like that could be used to form a scholarly veiwpoint suporting the idea. I think as Bakkster said, merging the criticism section into a criticism/support section would probably make the most sense. I can help with the research if someone wants to whip something up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badtoaster (talk • contribs) 16:32, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If I've got time later tonight I'll try to put a small "positive" or "support" section together. Let me know what ya'll think and please chip in anything you have. I'm mostly worried about avoiding OR and Synth as most of the positive sources don't use the word "heteronormativity" directly. - Schrandit (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you think the word “heteronormativity” needs to be used? Heteronormativity is an incredibly broad subject area, and just because someone makes heteronormative arguments does not mean that that person is arguing in favor of heteronormativity (rather, said individual would be arguing in favor of but one aspect of heteronormativity). Therefore, I think to focus only on “research that deals with the same subject and definition” is incredibly tricky territory because it needs to be the 'exact' same subject and definition, which I imagine will be rather difficult to find without encountering the word “heteronormativity”. Further, as with any concept, different people have different ideas of what “heteronormativity” means, so I don't even know what the same subject and definition would be. As I said above, if the individual does not explicitly support heteronormativity, by including it in a support section, we are violating WP:SYNTH by reaching a conclusion not explicitly stated by the author. -- Irn (talk) 21:34, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Different groups of people use different terms to describe similar things. I think I can avoid synth by just directly quoting or describing what the author wrote bereft of my own input I should be good to go. - Schrandit (talk) 22:32, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

That's true, but how would you contextualize it? In a section called “support”? Or simply opposite whatever claim is being opposed? Because the latter is what how the article was already structured, and the former would be adding your opinion of the quoted material. -- Irn (talk) 23:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

How about instead of calling it "criticism/support" we just call it "arguments" or "arguments for/against", and quote sources that argue that heterosexual relationships are superior or moral and sources that criticize that way of thinking. Badtoaster (talk) 02:02, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Sounds solid to me, I'm going to give it a go, let me know what you think. - Schrandit (talk) 04:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand how changing the name to "arguments" makes it better. As the article stands, support for heteronormative institutions is already integrated into the text. Why is this method not sufficient? -- Irn (talk) 17:34, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

In the entire text, there is very little support mentioned while there are several sources of criticism, the article has a definitive negative slant to it. Integrating an "arguments for/against" section would allow the reader to come to their own conclusions without leading them to one. It may be sufficient as is, but a little balancing would improve the article's neutrality. Lets see how the article reads with this section edited and then we can debate if it's improved or diminished Badtoaster (talk) 21:27, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand that you don't think there is enough support for heteronormativity in the article, but you're not answering the question: why do you think a new section is necessary to deal with this? Why can't whatever support you have simply be incorporated into the current sections – like it is already. If you think more support needs to be added, why can't that be done given the current structure of the article? -- Irn (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean. Just seemed easier to make a new arguments section, though adding support sources throughout the article to go along-side the criticism would have the same affect. Now that I think about it, that probably is a better way of going about evening the article. Does anyone else have an opinion as to which option would be more cohesive? Badtoaster (talk) 23:34, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

A separate section would be easier (also, I don't think any one has ever written an argument that heteronormativity is not racist, or countered a few of the other more unique writings) but I could go either way. - Schrandit (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be easier to lump support in with with the criticism section, but I'm thinking Irn has a point. It might make more sense to add a few sources through-out and leave the criticism section alone. I could be wrong though, I leave it to the consensus.

And your right, I don't think you could find that word used in a positive light as it seems to only be used by those criticizing the definition, but I think support for several points of the definition could be easily sourced. There are several papers on how traditional marriage makes for a stronger society for example which lends some credence to the idea. I think it's important to note that there are possibly moral or intellectual reasons behind why someone might fit into this category that aren't well represented in the article. I'm sure there are other ways of going about it as well if anyone else has some ideas. Badtoaster (talk) 03:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Right, the issue that the term is only used by one side of the debate practically necessitates there not be an "arguments for/against" section. Even if not, these types of sections are best used when there is well documented and structured debate, since this type of section can much more easily drift into POV. For example, we could end up with arguments over 'who gets the last word', and warring over who is the 'critic' and who is 'in support' because the term can involve a tacit endorsement.

On this note, I have removed the reference to 'criticism' in the Discrimination section, since I think that was a confusing term (criticism of what? Heteronormativity as a concept? Heteronormative attitudes?). Wouldn't criticism be saying heteronormativity isn't discrimination?

So, I think we should find dissenting opinions where we can, and add them to the article where appropriate. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. I changed "some writers" to "critics of heteronormativity." I'll try to look for some sources to add this afternoon if I have time. If anyone else wants to do some research that's cool too. Badtoaster (talk) 15:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

My point is that 'critics of heteronormativity' doesn't seem specific. It could mean either of the following:

1) People critical of heteronormative attitudes (the correct one)

2) Critics of the theory of heteronormativity (critics who say it doesn't cause discrimination or isn't 'bad')

I'm sure there's a less ambiguous term. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, added "attitudes" to it, looks good to me but if someone can come up with something better feel free. Badtoaster (talk) 16:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Incomplete

There should be some discussion of how many LGBT individuals view monogamy and traditional ideas of 'true love' between two 'soul mates' as evil, and as "heteronormative"... while other LGBT individuals view the sexuality promoted in LGBT culture of endless promiscuity as a form of self-denial where people deprive themselves of meaningful relationships. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but where is the citation for such claims? I will follow up with you directly. If a relevant source has documented these concepts, of course they should be included! The Sound and the Fury (talk) 03:01, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The racial connection

The article does not make clear how Cathy J. Cohen draws the connection between heteronormativity and racism. I just altered part of that section, and read it several times. In each case it says the scholar "draws a link" or something, but does not explain exactly how this happened, or really, at all make itself understood to the non-initiated. Would anyone care to clarify this? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 04:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Jewish and Marxist ? ? ?

This entry stresses the alleged "Jewish" and "Marxist" influence over the development of the critique of heteronormativity without immediately explaining how those supposed influences affected the analysis of heteronormativity. Which makes the references seem like a product of anti-Jewish, red-baiting, right-wing politics.Jnkatz1 (talk) 13:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

"Transgressions" section weasel words

The weasel words tag has been there for a while, and I did some cleanup of it and the uncited material. Anyone see more that can be fixed to get rid of that tag? Bakkster Man (talk) 17:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Link to racism?

Perhaps I'm not quite grasping the concept, but how does the "racial lens" that 'typified Latina girls as "excessively reproductive" compared to their white counterparts' relate to heteronormativity? I fail to see how 'a set of lifestyle norms that hold that people fall into distinct and complementary genders (man and woman) with natural roles in life, ... heterosexuality is the normal sexual orientation, and states that sexual and marital relations are most (or only) fitting between a man and a woman' directly relates to the perceived condemning of stereotyped minorities' as "excessively reproductive" and "irretrievably libidinous" (the "sexually suspect" phrase is vague beyond comprehension). This relates to the societal opposition of lust, not heteronormativity. Furthermore, heteronormativity does not relate to excessive repreduction whatsoever. Heteronormativity relates solely to the normativity of heterosexuality, and any further connection is irrelevant to the article. The inference that minorities have a proclivity to non-heterosexual relations is unsubstantiated. The section holds no factual weight at all, and should be removed. En-AU Speaker _(T) (C) ^(E) 13:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The section attributes these views to Lorena García who clearly uses the term in the context that Latinos are (allegedly) "thus nonconforming to idealized heteronormative standards". You may consider her usage to be mistaken or nonsensical. That's your privilege. In this case I'd be inclined to agree. But she clearly does use the term, so it has a legitimate place here. Paul B (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The fact that she uses the term does not merit the inclusion of said material. Our definition of the term, the accepted one, and her usage are clearly at odds. Either we modify our definition to include acts of lust, defying logic and the evident definition, or we rid the page of authors who are using the term to stereotype heteronormativity as opposing fornication, polygamy and associated acts, which it doesn't necessarily. While I'm sure there are heteronormative people who think that Latinos have too much sex, it doesn't follow to include it on this page because the author of a study into said topic misrepresents those concepts as not mutually exclusive. En-AU Speaker _(T) (C) ^(E) 15:11, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how the definitions are at odds. She is writing about gender roles, which is part of the definition this article uses. -- Irn (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Because she is not writing about gender roles. Gender roles are "norms that are considered to be socially appropriate for individuals of a specific sex in the context of a specific culture". She is talking about Latinos, who are an ethnic group. Yes, she states that it was studied by girls, and makes reference of sexism, but the crux of her argument is that heteronormative people are racist, believing that Latinos are subject to condemnation from their "excessive [reproduction]". En-AU Speaker _(T) (C) ^(E) 15:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

She means "a norm for appropriate heterosexual behaviour". The standard meaning is "heterosexuality as a norm of sexual behaviour". I agree with Enauspeaker that these are completely different meanings and that Garcia garbles the concept to the point of nonsensicality. But it is not for us to say that writers have got the concept wrong. My own view is that comparable sexological concepts are constantly garbled to the point that they become meaningless - homosocial being the most notorious case. But that's just my view. Paul B (talk) 15:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It may not be, but a cursory glance at a search with "heteronormativity definiton" in it reveals that our meaning is the accepted one. It is the merging of the words 'heterosexual' and 'normativity', which are defined quite clearly by dictionaries. Surely because one academic uses a word incorrectly doesn't mean that the word has irrevocably changed? That's wrong by both prescriptive and descriptive views. I just don't see why this misuse cannot be excised when it is clearly errant.