Talk:Libya

Date of capture of Tripoli during Arab invasion

In the same sentence, Tripoli was said to have been conquered by Abdullah ibn Saad in 647 and 643. It can't be both. If someone knows and has a source for the year, please add it. MayerG (talk) 05:05, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I will do it. I have a reliable source about it. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 06:09, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Done. Alex2006 (talk) 09:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

"The leadership of the Local People's Congress represents the local congress at the People's Congress of the next level."

What could that possibly mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zackofalltrades (talk • contribs) 07:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

this article should probably be changed in terms of the section for the Libyan government where it says disputed, i think it should be changed to the rebel National Transition Council currently based in Benghazi as the government for Libyan which this governing body refers to simply as the Libyan Republic, due to that fact that the U.S.A and approximately thirty other nations having recognized them publicly as being the both legitimate and the sole recognized government for Libya, and also because these same nations have declared the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya led by Gaddafi as being illegitimate and no longer the recognized government of Libya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.88.42 (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Uniform Common names for the two governments

I propose we create a Wikipedia wide common name for articles for Gaddafi's Libya and the NTC's Libya. I propose the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya should be commonly called the Libyan Jamahiriya and the NTC Government to be commonly known as the Libyan Republic. --Gimelthedog (talk) 03:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

No - Wikipedia can't use new conventions of its own; Jamahiriya is (essentially) the Arabic for 'Republic', and so the Libyan Jamahiriya would be the Libyan Republic - you need Gaddafi's other pretentious adjectives to distinguish it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.185.115.103 (talk) 22:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

You're correct that Wikipedia shouldn't invent its own conventions, but Jamahiriya is a neologism that translates to "state of the masses". The Arabic word for Republic is Jumhuriya. Orange Tuesday (talk) 00:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Use of the term 'Libyan Republic' is inconsistent and confusing. Official name of the country hasn't changed - UN member is still Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. When various governments around the world recognise NTC as "the only legitimate government of Libya" the term 'Libyan Republic' is not used. Not sure if there are any documents which say that what it is in fact recognised is existence of 'Libyan Republic', but it is certainly not as such in the media. That there are two governments claiming to represent the people of Libya is a fact, yet introducing 'Libyan Republic' is not helpful. NTC claims it is a transitional body and that the goal is for the free elections to be held in order for a legitimate, democratic Libyan government to be formed. So I don't think they have taken on themselves to give the name of their future country. I understand that when they refer to Libya they use term 'Libyan Republic' rather than 'Libyan Arab Jamahiriya' but even their web most of the time uses simply 'Libya'. So I suggest 'Libyan Republic' is changed to 'National Transitional Council' where denoting the NTC as a Libyan government and that the term 'Libyan Republic' is not used so prominently and entries where it is used corrected if needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert humbert (talk • contribs) 15:36, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Minor edit: "Scarps"

Under the Libyan Desert section there's a mention of "scarps": "Aside from the scarps, the general flatness is only interrupted by a series of plateaus and massifs near the centre of the Libyan Desert, around the convergence of the Egyptian-Sudanese-Libyan borders." I think it'd be helpful to link that term to the relevant wiki article. At least where I'm from it's not a commonly used term. I presume it's short for escarpment and could be linked to here. If it is in fact short for escarpment then it'd probably helpful to use the term escarpment for clarification. Noxxeexxon (talk) 17:16, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Minor edit: map

Just a heads up that the map should probably be updated now that south sudan is independent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.222.57 (talk) 18:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Libyan Republic

Is there a clear consensus as to the existence of 'Libyan Republic' as a state? I have a problem understanding how a group of people 90% of time refereed to as 'rebels' can be both legitimate leaders of Libya and insurgents? What, they rebelled against themselves? There is only one Libya (still) although it is not disputed that at the moment, as a result of a civil war, Libyan government lost control of a large part of the country and that an alternative government has emerged. A parallel with China is totally inadequate as there are two Chinas. However there are no two Libyas (except in a subjective, emotional sense). I closely follow the conflict in Libya and regularly read many different sources about the current events there and yet I had no idea 'Libyan Republic' existed before I saw it here. Rebels are given a country by Wikipedia, it would seem, without any of this being fulfilled: 1) de facto control of all or large enough part of the territory 2) support, democraticly or other legitimately expressed, by the majority of populace 3) being recognised by international community at large (and admitted to int. institutions etc.) I might be missing something here and I am grateful for explanation. Otherwise I feel certain amount of editing is needed wherever term 'Libyan Republic' is used. (post and edit by Albert humbert)

Even the NTC says they are not a government:

6. THE NATIONAL TRANSITIONAL COUNCIL AND THE EXECUTIVE BOARD Q. Is the NTC actually a government?

A. No. In accordance with the wishes of the Libyan people, the NTC is the transitional governing body in free Libya. The NTC has avoided internal chaos by creating structures that organize the various political/economic/social sectors. It is also the face and voice of the Libyan people outside Libya, by leading the diplomatic efforts necessary to put an end to the war, and to prepare the ground for a new role and image for Libya within the international community. Once Libya is freed, and the transitional period ends, the only legitimate government will be the one democratically elected by the Libyan people.[1] --albert_humbert 18:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I think rather than saying "The National Transitional Council refers to the country as the Libyan Republic", we should be talking about "The National Transitional Council of the Libyan Republic" as the entity. The term "Libyan Republic" on its own is very scarcely used outside of Wikipedia. Orange Tuesday (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I think we need some discussion on this subject. The infobox information, where 'Libyan Republic' is presented as an entity on its own, does not reflect the evidence. I'm minded to remove that box and suggest that all the information about the rebels and the NTC is provided in the sections about the NTC, the Libyan civil war or any other section as appropriate. The fact that some have refereed to Libya as 'Libyan Republic' rather than 'Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya' does not justify creation of a whole new state by Wikipedia. Accordingly, the old Libyan flag used by the NTC is simply that - an old Libyan flag used by the NTC. States/countries can't be created out of thin air.--albert_humbert 19:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert humbert (talk • contribs)

Well, according to some theories of statehood they essentially can. The other infobox is still useful since de facto the NTC does operate as a rival government with its own set of diplomatic relations. Maybe the name in there should be changed, but removing the entire thing would probably be a step too far given how extensive current rebel control is. Orange Tuesday (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to see examples and how they apply here. The UK government was very clear today that they are not recognising a country but a government. [2] Infobox in the current form confuses. Any information needed about the NTC and the civil war can easily be provided elsewhere on the page. Libya is in a state of war and nobody knows what will be the end result. However, I don't think we should impress our own conclusions upon readers. Lets see in which form would information provided be most accurate and useful.--albert_humbert 20:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can find a way to delete the official website of the NTC where it proclaims itself the transitional governing body of a state it refers to as the Libyan Republic, I think deleting that infobox would be biased and would be deleting information because you just don't like it. The de facto government (and de jure "transitional governing body", which is basically what the Transitional Federal Government of Somalia is as well) in Benghazi uses the name "Libyan Republic"; over 30 states recognize that government and do not recognize Gaddafi's government as legitimate. That should be reflected on this page as co-equal with Gaddafi's "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" per WP:NPOV. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I have nothing against any information as long as it is correct information. The only place where a country named 'Libyan Republic' exist is Wikipedia and that is simply wrong. There may be two governing bodies in Libya at the moment, the government one and the rebel one. However, there is (still) only one Libyan country. The 'Libyan Republic' infobox is misleading and it should be removed, all the information contained in it can be placed on the NTC page (the flag etc.) while the Jamahiriya's infobox should clearly state that the government is disputed and an appropriate link should be provided. albert humbert (talk) 00:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I oppose that change, as that is the deletion of referenced and verifiable information to bias the article toward the viewpoint of one partially unrecognized government. The NTC website calls the Libyan state the Libyan Republic quite clearly; in their view, and implicitly in the view of countries recognizing the council as the sole legitimate representative of Libya, the country is called the Libyan Republic and is rightfully led by an interim government with stated intent to facilitate a transition to democracy. The governments of France, the United States, the United Kingdom, Jordan, Qatar, and many other countries do not recognize Gaddafi's government or his position on the status and name of the Libyan state. As far as the NTC is concerned, per WP:RS, the jamahiriya is illegitimate and not part of their vision of the Libyan state. Imposing a Gaddafist neologism on the name of the Libyan state as claimed by the NTC would be both inaccurate and deeply biased. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

As to your claim that somebody on Wikipedia just "made up" the name "Libyan Republic": February 17 official and Washington Post byline disagree with you, as does the NTC website. I have no idea what the source of your antipathy toward that term is other than that using the name of the government rather than the name it uses for the Libyan state is WP:COMMON, but the term is out there, it's in official usage, and the jamahiriya only exists under the laws of Tripoli and in the eyes of governments that still recognize Muammar Gaddafi's government as legitimate. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

You are confusing the idea of statehood with the idea of governance. Read the official documents and official webpages: 99% of the time reference is to the NTC, not to the 'Libyan Republic'. It has been included in several Libya pages that 'The National Transitional Council refers to the state as the Libyan Republic'. I have no objection to that although I think word 'occasionally' should be added as most of the time they refer to Libya as simply 'Libya'. After all they can call Libya any name they want, but it is still (for now) one and only Libya. You are obviously very, very, very biased and I sympathise with your point of view but that has nothing to do with how to contribute to an encyclopedia. Also, you have rolled back my contribution on another page which is against Wikipedia behavioral guideline so I think that you are also very unreasonable. albert humbert (talk) 02:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Read the policy again. As for this page (you know, the one whose Talk page we are on right now?), the fact that the NTC has referred to the state as the "Libyan Republic" and never as a jamahiriya or any other form of government you seem to want to erroneously attribute the country's government as indisputably being, in any official organ or communique makes it verifiable information worthy of inclusion. Obviously the short-form common name is going to be used more often; that's why they call it a common name. What, exactly, do you think the NTC's position on the long-form official name of the Libyan state is? -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I have. Your behaviour is disruptive. albert humbert (talk) 03:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sincerely sorry that you feel that way. But it only seems to be "disrupting" your efforts to make controversial edits without consensus to remove information you don't feel is "worthy" of inclusion despite coming from credible, verifiable, and in many cases even governmental sources. Consensus is a pillar of editing policy on Wikipedia, and you simply don't have it to remove all mentions of "Libyan Republic" or anything that makes the NTC sound like a government, which it has been recognized as being by over two dozen UN member states including three members of the UN Security Council. I'm opposed to that. Orange Tuesday is opposed to it. Kintetsubuffalo, on the page to which you are referring, is opposed to it. You don't own these articles and you don't have the right to make unilateral changes that other editors are opposed to for legitimate reasons. I'm sure you're making these edits in good faith, but you can't just get upset and start accusing other editors of being "disruptive" when they say, "Hey, wait a minute, you can't just delete referenced material when other active editors are opposed to it." As for the page move, while I believe you should have sought consensus on the relevant Talk page before executing the move, and I think your handling of my complaint was inexplicably high-handed, I see your perspective as to wanting to bring the name of the article in line with much of the other material on Wikipedia referring to the entity in question. As for wanting to scrub all mention of the Libyan Republic from this article and others, I really do disagree in good faith for reasons I've stated above, and I don't find your arguments persuasive. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Other editors can talk for themselves, I'm sure.

I provided extensive explanation and evidence for my edits and invited discussion. You, on the other hand, used rollback! And yet you accuse me of not searching for compromise? One erased reference is not justification for rolling back 5 edits and than, in the process, erasing my references that include the NTC official website. Twice! What do you have against that website? You are not happy it does not support your claims I guess, as there is no mention of 'Libyan Republic' government or prime minister.

I am not removing "all mentions of 'Libyan Republic'" - just correcting where appropriate. albert humbert (talk) 05:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Please use the relevant Talk pages to discuss topics related to specific articles. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

No need to be patronising - I have used the relevant Talk pages. But for some reason you think that editors need your advance permission before making any edits and that a subject is 'controversial' only because you don't like someone else's views. I see your behaviour as simple and plain bullying, sorry.

We should be arguing about facts, sources and evidence but you seem to rather prefer endless quoting of Wikipedia policies which you than brake yourself. That is called double standards.

I maintain that information you provide on the subject is misleading and incorrect and your refusal to use the official NTC website [3] as a primary source on the NTC related information begs belief. albert humbert (talk) 06:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I have no intention of bullying or anything of the sort. I don't own this content; I'm an infrequent editor on this particular page for more than minor updates; I'm just trying to improve Wikipedia and keep the content both verifiable and comprehensive. To your complaint about my definition of "controversial", Wikipedia policy is that proposed changes (or recent edits) that another editor has a legitimate and expressed disagreement with are controversial and require discussion and consensus in order to be adopted. As to your point about primary sources, it's interesting you bring that up, because I recently participated in a discussion at Talk:South Sudan#RfC: how Wikipedia cites the official name of the country that dealt with the usage of "primary" as opposed to "secondary" sources. The outcome happens to, upon review, support your contention that use of the common preference to use National Transitional Council (referring to the governing body) instead of Libyan Republic (its seldom-seen official long-form name for the Libyan state, most frequently referred to by all parties and sources by the short-form name of Libya) should be reflected in the names of articles on Wikipedia; however, it doesn't support your contention that any moniker or title used by a secondary source and not a primary source should be ignored, for reasons of verifiability. Primary sources are useful and relevant per Wikipedia policy, but they are not the alpha and omega of what is verifiable.

Apologies for the blurring of lines between the subject of Libya and another discussion on Talk:Mahmoud Jibril. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you carefully look at the timeline of Talk page entries I made and rollbacks/edits you made. I was the one who raised the 'Libyan Republic' and 'Mahmoud Jibril (not) a prime minister' questions first by starting discussions on the Talk pages. Per Wikipedia policy you quoted it is you who should have not made the changes before reaching consensus. Instead of discussing first, you simply rolled back! There is no way I could have known your position before I made the edits - however, you did know mine as it was clearly written on the Talk pages. So what you required of me is something you should have done first.

I totally accept the validity of secondary sources and believe that all the evidence available should be examined before a conclusion is reached. albert humbert (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Jasmine Republic ?

I propose a name change to "Jasmine Republic" As that is the rebel name as is known --Rancalred (talk) 13:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the name used by the NTC for the Libyan state is the Libyan Republic, and per WP:NPOV, this article should have a neutral name (neither "Libyan Republic" nor "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya") and a common name, and that is Libya - the name by which most English-speakers know the country regardless of its government. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)