Talk:Norman language

Norse "hóra"

I am not a norse expert, but the word "hóra" seems to be the same word as english whore. Of course, it isn't sich a strange semantic shift, anyway. I heard that the common swedish word "flicka"(girl) originally meant slut, at least it does in norwegian...

Norman Wikipedia

Work is currently underway on a test Wikipedia in Norman. Contributions and comments welcome. Man vyi 14:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Norman Wikipedia now up and running, and awaiting contributions! Man vyi 18:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Dialect Comparison

It would be really nice to see a comparison of Insular and Continental dialects at some point. The Jade Knight 23:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed move

It has been proposed that Languages of Oïl be renamed and moved to Langues d'Oïl. Comments and votes on Talk:Languages of Oïl, please, if you're interested. Man vyi 09:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I've added an infobox, copying the family information from the one on French language. The number of speakers and the ISO codes aren't yet filled in - I suspect there are no ISO codes, but there ought to be information on the number of speakers. If I've made any errors, please correct them. Hairy Dude 04:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Sadly, I've searched and searched and cannot find accurate numbers for Norman speakership in France. Numbers are available for Channel Island speakership, however. The Jade Knight 06:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The French state permits no language questions in the census - there are really no reliable stats for regional languages in France (of course, whether a census question would give reliable figures is another matter...) Man vyi 07:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I did notice that in a recent census or survey there was a question about Oïl langues (other than French). However, it did not distinguish between which Oïl langues (and as such is of limited use). The Jade Knight 08:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added the ISO 639 codes. Ethnologue, the registering authority for ISO 639-3 is really not good on Oïl languages, and seems to let the codes for French cover all of them. In the meantime, roa is the ISO 639-2 code for any Romance language not covered by a more specific code. — Gareth Hughes 18:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Update: Màgene claim 20,000 continental speakers of Norman. I don't know where they get this number, though. The Jade Knight 18:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

More linguistics, please

More discussion of phonology, syntax, even orthographic evolution -- not just word comparison or literature -- would be nice. Comparison with standard French would be a good way to go about this. A-giau 12:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Many of the Norman Wikipedia articles now feature phonology and orthography comparisons between the various dialects of Norman. You may find this useful, if you can navigate the language. The Jade Knight 23:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Is the Norman language considered a dialect? Did it change from Ancient French to Middle French to Modern French? Is it several dialects? It would help to know if there were more distinctions based on dialect (s) in the region of Normandy at various intervals in the last 1,000 years or so. Stevenmitchell 20:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Any linguist that has taken a close look at Norman can easily see that it is not "a dialect"—it is most certainly not a dialect of French. Norman does not come from Ancient French, but rather descends from Old Norman, which was a distinct langue d'oïl (arguably, Old Norman was simply a different dialect from Old French. But that was 1,000 years ago). Modern Norman contains, however, several dialects, which are often grouped into Insular Norman (spoken in the Channel Islands) and Continental Norman (which share a unified orthography). Even within a single dialect, such as Jèrriais, there are numerous regional accents (/"dialects") which can differ substantially in pronunciation. The Jade Knight 22:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, you're not any linguist. Because "Norman" is a complete English fantasy designed at reassuring them that they were enslaved by Vikings and not by Frenchmen. Sadly, though, history speaks for itself. William's army was composed mostly of Picards, Bretons, and Normans (who were 7th generation French-born and spoke only French. If that ain't enough yet to qualify as French, then 80% of Americans are Europeans. Have fun explaining them that). And those people spoke French. Maybe an older version of modern French, but we can't blame them for not speaking a language which still didn't exist in their days. They spoke contemporary 11th century French. Honni soit qui mal y pense, Brits. Soyez honnis, donc. 95.115.46.128 (talk) 20:52, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I do not agree with that. 1st statement : Normans "were 7th generation French-born". Not true : Old Norse and Old Danish were probably still spoken by people living in the Cotentin region and maybe some other places in Upper Normandy until the generation of William's father, as it is attested in the recorded place-names with a typical Nordic spelling until the 11th century. An important immigration of Anglo-Danish and Anglo-Norse farmers from England, Danemark and Norway could have continued until the end of the 10th century. About the feeling to be "French", Georges Duby demonstrated with historical facts, that the regional identities remained essential among the knights and the population until the 13th century at least and still in the 14th century during the first period of the hundred year war. There are many documents showing these facts, for example : « Baivier e Saisne sunt alet à cunseill, e Peitevin e Norman e Franceis; asez i as Alemans e Tiedeis. » (the Saxons et Bavarians went to the council, together with the Poitevins, the Normans and the French...., Chanson de Roland verse 3795). Other wrong statement : "William's army was composed mostly of Picards, Bretons, and Normans". No, about a half of his army originated from Normandy. Concerning the language they spoke, there were probably different languages in William's army, even if the majority could speak the langue d'oïl and Wace who wrote in the 12th century said :

<< a Chaem fui petiz portez, illoques fui a letres mis, pois fui longues en France apris ; quant jo de France repairai, a Chaem longues conversai, de romanz faire m'entremis, mult en escris et mult en fis >> (then, I studied in France for a long time...when I came back from France, I stayed for a long time in Caen..I began to write in Romanz) Other citation << e de Normanz est apelee Normendie que il unt poplee. Neustrie aveit nun anceis, tant cume ele fut as franceis >> (Normandy was called Neustrie, when it belonged to the French). Other wrong statement : English people would say "Normans" instead of "Frenchmen" and French people would say "French", that is exactly the contrary. In England, the Normans were considered as French, because they came from the "French continent". Other thing : the expression Norman-French is typical English and it does not exist in French. If you feel French, that's your right, because your ancestors are mixed, but there are Norman people who feel Norman and continue to speak Norman. That is probably not your case. Nortmannus (talk) 16:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Nrm

I note the Norman Wikipedia is at nrm: but there is no mention of this code in this article - from what is it derived? Should there be a link from the NRM TLA disamibg page? Thryduulf 14:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Archived discussion on Meta may provide some enlightenment. Man vyi 15:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Although that discussion was interesting, it wasn't particularly enlightening regarding the choice of "nrm" over the other suggestion of "nor". Thryduulf 16:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

"Nor" is reserved for Norwegian (in terms of ISO codes); despite the fact that this is not currently being used by the Norwegian Wikipedias, someone felt it was best to find an entirely new code to use for the Norman wikipedia. nrm may have been my suggestion; I do not entirely remember. It has the advantage of working in all relevant languages/dialects, however (Norman/normand/Nouormand/normaund), where "nor" doesn't work with Jèrriais. The Jade Knight 08:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Etymologies

• What the OED says about "mug" (which is what I meant to write instead of "catch" in my edit summary, sorry) is:

Origin uncertain; app. related to Dutch mok mug (late 19th cent.), German regional (Low German) muck, German regional (Low German: East Friesland) mukke mug, Norwegian mugge open can or jug, Danish mugge, Swedish mugg mug, and also French regional moque, (Guernsey) mogue jug, cup, but the relationships between these words are unclear, and their further etymology is unknown.

There's nothing there to indicate that the idea the word came from Norman French is preferable to any other source (fwiw, the Online Etymology Dictionary, Dictionary.com, and the American Heritage Dictionary all suggest or claim it comes from a Scandinavian language)

• I had removed "causeway" because only the "cause" part comes from Norman French; I didn't make that clear, though, and it's still correct to leave it in, so sorry about that

--Miskwito 03:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

My edits reflect all this, and provide citation where available. With a great many words of Scandinavian and langue d'oïl origin in English, it is difficult to tell exactly which language they come from. In the case of "mug", the earliest attestation is from 1400 and spelled "mogge"—clearly not a Dutch or German borrowing, and the timing makes it highly unlikely that it is a Scandinavian borrowing. The most reasonable explanation of the timing and spelling of the earliest forms of this word is that it comes from Norman. The Jade Knight 04:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The old Normans spoke Old East Norse

I have corrected the table with etymologies for some Norman words according to how the old normans actually spoke. They didn't speak Old West Norse anno 1300AD, but rather Viking age Old East Norse. Very similar languages, but definitely some crucial differences. // Jens Persson (213.67.64.22 21:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

South East Ireland

I am going to remove the following from the article:

In Ireland, Norman remained strongest in the area of south-east Ireland where the Normans invaded in 1169. In particular a distinctive variety of "Norman French" remained alive in the barony of Forth and Bargy in Wexford until very recent times.

I am from Wexford and I can say without doubt that Yola, as the extinct local dialect is known, was a variety of Middle English NOT French. There is even a glossary with examples of poetry and song in the Yola dialect which were collected by Jacob Poole, a Quaker preacher from the barony of Forth and republished with additions by Dr Diarmuid Ó Muirithe. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 16:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

As for the Irish Folklore Commission possessing recordings of supposed Norman French speakers from Forth and Bargy, this is total nonsense. Yola died out long before tape recorders were even invented! An Muimhneach Machnamhach 16:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me

Being new to wikipedia, I'm not sure of exactly the right way to contradict your editing of this article, but anyway; I think you need to elaborate on your assertion that the Irish Folklore Commission do not possess recordings of French being spoken in Wexford. Do you work at or have access to the archives of said Commission? Or does simply being from Wexford equip you with this knowledge? Your assertion seems, as is, to rely on a further assertion that the Yola language must have been mistaken for French by the author of the original, removed article. Your argument appears approximately thus;"Yola is not French, Yola died out before tape recorders were invented, therefore there cannot be any recordings of French". Which is, literally, nonsense. It is of little consequence, as I cannot remember the name of the program in question, but I remember seeing on the telly (in the UK) some years ago footage of an elderly Irish man singing a song in what was claimed to be Norman French. This does not mean I am convinced of late survivals of Norman French in Ireland. It does, however, give me cause to think it would be better to put the removed item back until there is even the slightest sliver of a good reason for removing it. Bhasmanath

Welcome to Wikipedia, Bhasmanath! Articles here are not written by individuals, but by everyone who's interested and thinks they can contribute something. You're welcome to Be Bold and edit the article yourself to make it more accurate! The very best thing you can do would be to find citations/references which back up your claims and include them with your changes, but if you feel certain that something should or should not be in the article, you can always change it and then see if someone else objects. The Jade Knight 04:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

French Dialect

Why isn't Norman considered a French dialect? I've read some sources that regard it as a dialect of French and some others that don't. For which reasons does Wikipedia consider it a separate language? Aaker 16:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a language of France, for a start - the French state classes it as a separate language from French (without permitting it any official status though). Have a read of the Oïl languages article for more on the classification and division of the family. Man vyi 19:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me but how similar is Norman to French User:Doktoreggman —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doktoreggman (talk • contribs) 15:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say very similar. At least the written languages. Aaker (talk) 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The spoken form is somewhat less similar, but still similar. Vocabulary is highly similar (at least 70-90% or more words are cognates with French, and a great many of them nearly identical), though many cognates contain different shades of meaning. Grammar is very similar, but there are crucial differences, among which is the existance of a different tense system than that found in French. Idioms are generally totally different from French. The Orthography varies from being extremely similar to French (Jèrriais) to being moderately similar (Continental Norman) to being totally different (Sercquiais). The Jade Knight (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Merci pour la clarification! Aaker (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Are Norman French and French mutually intelligible? Thats the normal dividing line between language and dialect, after all.Lexington1 (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

So Swedish and Danish are just dialects of the same language? Ditto Urdu and Hindi? 63.224.229.160 (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC) 63.224.229.160 (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC) 63.224.229.160 (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Written Jèrriais is artificially close to French and largely intelligible to French speakers. I believe (though I am not particularly qualified to make this statement) that the spoken forms are not mutually intelligible (and even though I am fluent in French and have studied written Norman extensively, I still have difficulty understanding the spoken [or sung] form!). That said, virtually all Norman speakers understand French (certainly on the Continent; I am unsure to what degree this is the case in the Isles), but French is an official language at all locations where Norman is spoken, and this may be the primary reason for this comprehension. The Jade Knight (talk) 08:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

If I've understood it correctly, all langues d'oïl were considered varieties of the same language (Vulgar Latin => Old French => langues d'oïl) until Standard French became universally spoken. The reason why Danish and Swedish are considered different languages is more political than linguistic, the same goes for Hindi/Urdu and Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian, Catalan/Valencian and many others. The differences between Danish and Swedish are however much bigger than many people think, most Swedes and Danes have severe difficulties understanding each other, pronunciation is very different and grammar and orthography are quite different (unfortunately IMHO!). Aaker (talk) 18:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Dalles - Norman origin?

Usually in French dalles is flagstone or paving stone; other meanings given in French wiki vary quite a bit, but none jibe with a meaning common in western North America - a particulary type of river rapids. It's that meaning of the homonym I"m wondering if it might not come from the Danish input into Normand; usually quebecois/canadien is associated with Brittany, "but"....anyway please see this discussion] on Talk:Dalles where I raise the possiblility - just a guess - that the etymology is via Norman French, from Danish/Norwegian dal (valley), which in certain cases is dale - vs the OED's intimation that the flag/pavingstone meaning is a loanword into French from Ger. diele. Or is there a Latin root in any of these cases? Anyway, any etymologists or French-language historians hereabouts, please drop by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Skookum1#Dalles discussion] and give us your thoughts.Skookum1 (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

dalle pl. dalles recorded in French in the 14th century (Larousse -étymologique, 1971) may come from the Norman dialect dalle that means "sink" (of a kitchen). It may be a confusion between 2 Old Danish words dal and doeli. The word "dal/le" "valley" is common in Norman place names: Dieppedalle, dipdal (Cf. deepdale GB), Eurdal, Bruquedalle ("brookdale"), Croixdalle (Craudalle 1253, "Crowdale"), Oudalle ("Wolfdale"), Les Petites Dalles, les Grandes Dalles, Daubeuf (Cf. Dalby GB), Becdal, etc...and is considered as Anglo Danish. Nortmannus (talk) 17:52, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

National Categorization

Jersey and Guernsey are not part of the UK. Should the nation bit in the infobox be fixed? The Jade Knight (talk) 08:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Language code

Er....the ISO code given is wrong. "nrm" represents Narom language - see [1]. As far as I know, Norman has not been assigned a separate code in ISO 693-3. Widsith (talk) 13:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Channel Islands: United Kingdom

I thought the Channel Islands were not part of the UK, but independent crown dependencies like the Isle of Man. The only thing the UK does for the islands is defence and other reserved matters depending on the issues involved e.g. Foreign affairs. I'm sure though a Crown Dependency is not the United Kingdom. Please look into it. 82.11.221.164 (talk) 08:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the problem has been reflecting use in the bailiwicks and the survival of fossilised usage in the UK. I've rehierarchised the list to clarify the situation. Man vyi (talk) 06:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Number of speakers

So how many people speak Norman nowadays? Some figure needs to be in here. Funnyhat (talk) 21:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Magène claims 20,000 speakers of Continental Norman. C'valyi d'Jade (talk) 05:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

"Most of part modern French and Norman is intercomprehensible"

Grammatically, this sentence doesn't make sense to me. I'd change it, but I have no idea how close modern French and Norman actually are.