Talk:Seven seals

The Revelation article seems to have more info than this article: Chronology of Revelation#The Lamb and the Seven Seals

Nonsense and original research

A lot of uncited text has been added recently. I propose reverting to this revision from June 25th. Wikipedia is not the place to publish original ideas, and by the looks of how some of this content has been tagged, I am not alone in thinking this content is pretty poor. To the author of this content, please consider revising, consider our WP:MoS guidelines, take an encyclopedic tone, and most importantly, cite reliable sources so we can have a verifiable article. What do others think about the recent additions?-Andrew c ^[talk] 21:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

As you can see from Seven seals' page history, I agree with you, Andrew, and followed the 'be bold' WP guideline. Carl.bunderson 23:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Hardly nonsense or original research, nevertheless, reverted back to the old June version.

John

Thanks, John. It's very hard to make sense of what you wrote, to me at least. Perhaps if it was written more clearly and included extensive footnotes, we could come to a compromise? Carl.bunderson 04:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Still this post is still questionable without citing reliable sources. I suggest remaking this post, and also, we might want to consider to search for citations from other religeous books. dajhan 20:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Article Clarity

The article isn't very clear to someone who has no notion whatsoever of what the Seven Seals are. It serves more as an interpretation of what the seals may mean. Some explanation of what the seals actually are is required. --Dark Green (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the "7 seals" are 'beyond Einstein theories' that are presented on the cover of a "book/scroll" entitled There Are No Coincidences - there is synchronism. - Brad Watson, Miami 65.3.238.158 (talk) 12:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

What's a "Seal"?

It would be nice if a "Seal" were explained, not only metaphorically, but also what it meant at the time the Book of Revelation became dogma. --Ludvikus (talk) 20:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The literal definition of a 'seal' at the time of the writing (68-96 AD) of The Revelation to John/The Apocalypse was/is as follows... "seal, signet: Eastern peoples carried a ring or stamp, or in later times a cylinder, engraved with certain figures or characters. This being impressed on a tablet of clay or soft wax served as a signature in a country where very few could write. Sealing with such a signet was also applied to the tomb of Jesus, and to the Book of Revelation." - Bible (Revised Standard Version, Melton Book Company, 1971), A Dictionary of the Bible (glossary) - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.22 (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The figurative definiton of a 'seal' is great secret information known only to God and availalble only to His Christ to discover who will reveal it to the world at the end of the Age of Pisces/beginning of the Age of Aquarius. 74.225.132.158 (talk) 13:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC) Brad Watson, Miami

'7 Seals' on the cover of the 'book/scroll'

"7 seals" are found on the cover of the "book/scroll" referred to in The Revelation 5:1-10:10. The King James Version refers to it as a 'book' as do some other versions, yet, there are many Bible versions that refer to it as a 'scroll', i.e. New King James Version, "And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals." - Rev 5:1. This article should reflect this accepted duality by making reference to the "book/scroll". 64.136.26.22 (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)Brad Watson, Miami, FL

"The seven seals were opened by the Lion of Judah."

In the beginning of the article, we find the following statement: "The seven seals were opened by the Lion of Judah." Is the past tense use of "were" correct? Its use implies that the 'Lion of Judah' or the Christ - 'God's chosen one' - has already returned, produced and opened the "7 seals", and that this has been acknowledged by experts. - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.235 (talk) 12:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

"the last book in" (the Christian Bible)

In the opening paragraph, after "the Book of Revelation" was referred to, I added "the last book in" before "the Christian Bible", or "the Book of Revelation, the last book in the Christian Bible". It's very important for readers of the article to know that the "seven seals" are found at the end of the Bible. The last chapter of most every book is the climatic ending where everything that has preceded it is brought together and the story line is completed while making strong points. The end of a long story may 'demand' a sequel. In the case of the Bible, there is clearly a reference to the sequel: the "book/scroll" with the "7 seals" on the cover that only the second coming of the Christ can produce! 74.225.132.158 (talk) 13:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC) Brad Watson, Miami

"In the vision received by John the Evangelist"

In the opening paragraph, I added "In the vision received by John the Evangelist". It's very important to reference the historical event of the receiving of the prophecy of the "book/scroll with the seven seals", possibly even the date (~70 AD) and location (Island of Patmos) should be added. 74.225.132.158 (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC) Brad Watson, Miami, FL

Only the Christ can produce the "book/scroll" with the "7 seals"

The Revelation 5:1-10:10 states that only the Christ can produce the "book/scroll" from the right-hand of God sealed with the "7 seals". - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

New layout

I've provided a new layout, removed original research and honed in on more or less words that are actually used in text. I had to remove a lot of rubbish and hopefully this will bring more clarity. I've also linked "seals" to another article that hopefully can explain what a seal was used for in ancient times. I didnt explain it in this article but you can follow the link if you dont know what a seal is. Jasonasosa (talk) 21:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Jasonasosa, who gave you the authority to "provide a new layout and remove original research"? And do you alone dare to determine what is "rubbish" on this article and other Wikipedia pages? - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 65.3.238.158 (talk) 12:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you arguing that there were reliable sources for the material removed? If so, can you please provide them? Dougweller (talk) 14:13, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but the material is now gone. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

To answer that question, "who gave you the authority?"... well, the [edit] option on the right hand side of my computer screen gave me the authority. Cheers. Jasonasosa (talk) 01:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, why not just choose to tell the truth? You took it upon yourself to delete material that was both supported and not supported by references. And the non-supported material could have been supported if you had desired/requested it. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Opening of each seal produces a judgment and cataclysmic event

When one reads The Revelation 5:1-10:10, you learn of the "'book/scroll' that only the Christ can open that is sealed with the '7 seals'". The Bible explains that when each one of these seals is opened, there is a judgment and an apocalyptic event. The "7 seals" are NOT described as themselves being judgments and apocalyptic events, they are described as when opened (cause), that action synchronically produces judgments and the reaction of catastrophic events (effect). - Brad Watson, Miami 65.3.238.158 (talk) 11:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Is that what reliable (by WP:RS) sources say? Dougweller (talk) 14:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It's such a standard interpretation by Christian leaders that it didn't dawn on me that I needed to reference it. I AM now referencing all my edits! I suppose if I refer to "the sun rising in the East", I'll have to reference that, too. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Another new layout

By the [edit] option vested to me... I propose a new layout. Well... I'll just do it and if you don't like it... you know what to do.

Calls in a demolition crew and a wrecking ball.* Oh yes! Time for some major damage! And out of the mess, will come something beautiful! Jasonasosa

Don't worry, this is a work in progess. Getting more material, more sources and references. This new layout will enable more editors to build upon and present multiple views. I love wiki! Jasonasosa (talk) 04:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason Asosa, you have taken it upon yourself to be 'master' of this article and its chief editor. You have erased some important contributions to it that I provided. Keep in mind that the main lesson of The Revelation is "Everyone will be judged according to their actions", which is also repeated over-and-over again in the Qur'an. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 (talk) 13:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see any Islamic views on this page... but if you have some sourced material on that subject... that would be real interesting to see. Thanks,

The Master and chief editor of my [edit] function, (until taken away) Jasonasosa (talk) 16:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, you have turned this article into your playground to do with whatever you wish and at your whim. At what point will your childish games come to an end by the moderators of Wikipedia? Once again I will post popular views supported by references, i.e. the "symbolic definition of 'seal'", and ask that you do NOT delete them. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 (talk) 18:47, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Muhahaha... my playground! (Revs up wrecking ball tractor ready to bulldoze any unsourced, rubbish, vandalizing, non-coherant material)Jasonasosa (talk) 20:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Opening of the "7 seals" heralds the return of the Christ

The last book of the Bible can be summed up as being about the return of the Christ and the signs of that event taking place. Since only the Christ can produce the "book/scroll" of Rev 5:1-10:10 and symbolically open the "7 seals", any teaching of the "7 seals" being produced or opened must be accompianed with identifying the returned Christ. Jasonalosa has drasticallyedited the article with explanations of the "7 seals" being opening in the 1sr century, during the reign of Emperor Constantine, etc. The Christ didn't return at those times, therefore thos "7seals" explanations are clearly wrong! Why are they then being promoted here? It's a HUGE lie and deception on the part of Jasonalosa and any of his supporters. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.121.70 (talk) 19:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be motivated to edit like this by your faith. According to dictionary.com, faith is "belief that is not based on proof." Please read the reliable sources guideline before you keep editing like this, because if you don't stop, you're going to get blocked. CityOfSilver 19:31, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

All jokes aside... Brad, I appreciate your passion for accurate material. The truth is, is... wiki provides an online encyclopedia that allows all audiences to read the many interpretations and relgious POVs out there. Thus, the layout I have presented allows one to read about the preterist, historicist, futurist, and ideologist points of views. It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong... its about being fair. Just as it is fair to present the Jewish, Christian and Muslim views that you see throughout wiki pages. Only you can decide what is true on your own, you can't expect wiki to decide that for you. Jasonasosa (talk) 20:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

"All jokes aside"? Wikipedia and this article especially, is certainly NOT the place to joke around. I AM a historian and scientist and am motivated by the truth. It is you that seem to have an agenda based on your faith. "It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong"? How preposterous! Now we know exactly what your agenda is: deception. And I first read the 'reliable source guideline' when Wikipedia first started, when did you read it? I don't appreciate your condescending tone and it is against the rules of the discussion pages - are you aware of that? You insinuate that you have only deleted material that had no references. It appears that you have deleted material that did or could have easily had references provided. But that didn't matter to you, your beliefs, and your agenda. I'll continue to edit Wikipedia pages and will continue to list references. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I've given you a warning for this attack. I'll also note that you couldn not have read WP:RS when Wikipedia began as it isn't that old, and if you read the first version you'd better read it again. As well as WP:NPOV. Wikipedia articles reflect what reliable sources have to say proportionately to their significance. Dougweller (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, I did nothing but quote Jason. Do you agree with his premise that "It doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong"? I read the rules of Wikipedia when it first started. I read WP:RS awhile back and I'll read it again. You'll notice that I edited the article page again and used references. Please retrack your "warning" to me. I AM here only because I seek the truth and desire that others know the truth. I respect other opinions, which is why I didn't delete Jason's new article page. The interpretations of the "7 seals" that he has given are mostly wrong, but he has them referenced. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

The book/scroll sealed with seven seals that only the worthy Lion/Lamb can open

In Revelation Chapter 5, John of Patmos witnesses “in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book or scroll written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals^[Rev.5:1] that only the "Lion/Lamb" - only the "worthy" creature - can open.^[Rev.5:5-7]

When Revelation was written, In the period of Classical antiquity, wax seals were commonly used to secure letters and various documents. A seal was a small lump of soft wax usually placed across the opening of a scroll or letter, to harden and secure the document. The seal prevented any unauthorized person from opening it. (Compare Isaiah 8:16, 29:11; Daniel 8:26, 12:4, 9) Should a message be opened, it would not go unnoticed, and in most cases an opened seal would likely result in the death of a messenger, especially if it had been transmitted between royal houses.

The seal on a document also provided proof that the item was actually from the sender and was not a forgery. The seal was usually stamped by a signet ring or similar devise, commonly having an engraving on it that served as a unique signature from the sender. This was especially useful in countries where few could write. Messages sent with a seal were usually from king to king. Only the proper person, in the presence of witnesses, could open the document. Sealing with such a signet was also applied to the tomb of Jesus. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:00, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

You need page numbers for books, what page of the RSV says the tomb was sealed with such a signet? Or which verse of what book? Dougweller (talk) 15:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

p. 28 A Dictionary Of The Bible (glossary) Revised Standard Version (RSV), Melton Book Company, 1971 - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:22, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I can't locate such a book, are you sure that's correct? What exactly does it say, can I please have a quotation? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 16:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, why couldn't you locate the Revised Standard Version of the Bible? Are you sure that you really tried to locate it? How extensive was your search? Since I have ~25 different English Bible translations/versions, I can very easily quote any of them. But I've already provided your answer. Just look at the above "What's a seal?" that I posted one year ago! - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I can locate that of course, I can't locate A Dictionary Of The Bible (glossary) Revised Standard Version and still want the quote please. It's the 'signet' bit I'm asking about - you say it's in the Bible, then just chapter and verse will do. Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, please don't misquote me (or anyone else for that matter). I never said "it's in the Bible". I clearly gave the reference of the definition of 'seal, signet' as coming from p. 28 of the glossary of the Revised Standard Version entitled A Dictionary Of The Bible. This is the third time I've had to explain this to you besides it being properly referenced in the article that you and Jason unfortunately chose to delete for the wrong reasons. The Literal and Figurative Definition of Seal needs to be returned to the article page. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 12:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

seven symbolic seals that secure(?) the "book" or "scroll"

Someone (Jason?) has changed the wording to the opening paragraph and has now used "secure". Is that 'correct'? Is it the best way to word this? I realize that the purpose of the article is to explain/define the "7 seals" and a definition should never use the word or form of the word in its explanation, i.e. using 'sealed' to explain 'seals'. And yet, every Bible version of The Revelation 5:1 states "sealed with 7 seals". The first definition of seal: 1. an emblem or figure used as evidence of authenticity. - p 789 The Random House Dictionary - Concise Edition (Random House, 1983). That first definition is highly important re: the "7 seals" since their being correctly presented on the cover of the "book/scroll" that "only the Christ can recieve from God" (paraprased) is "evidence of authenticity". The definition of 'secure' doesn't include "evidence of authenticity". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

LMAO... and you say you are a "historian and scientist"? You don't even know what a "seal" is and you are even providing definitions? Why don't you read about seals here > seal (emblem); a link you keep removing. Also... "secure" doesn't always mean a lock and key... just so you know. (if thats what your thinking). What a waste of my time and keystrokes. Jasonasosa (talk) 17:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

On a side note... I think it's hilarious that there is one administrator for every 10,000 goofballs on the English wiki site alone...not to mention all the other unregistered users. See Wikipedia:About. Jasonasosa (talk) 19:41, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, what a rant! I simply asked about the use of "secure". You seem to be 'hell bent' on deleting anything other than your posts. I don't believe I ever deleted the link to seal. I was the one to first provide the correct literal and figurative definitions of it along with a reference. Do you consider yourself an expert on the "7 seals" and the "2nd Coming of the Christ"? I do. Did you just call me a goofbol? Insults are not allowed on discussion pages. You don't possess the proper respect of others or the "7 seals". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm included in the ratio... but you can interpret it however you want to. Jasonasosa (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Spelling of 'judgment' vs 'judgement' - consistency of spelling

According to The Random House Dictionary - Concise Edition (Random House Publishing, 1993), 'judgment' is the most common spelling, although the British version of 'judgement' is also correct. Which should we use here? This is 'judgmental' and we can't help 'judging' which is best and why? But since this reference and my really BIG dictionary (Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary [Barnes & Noble, 2003) use 'judgment' and concise spellings are always better, I humbly propose that this article and all Wikipedia articles use the spelling of judgment. At least that's my judgment. (Note: Back in '03, I came across this 2,214+ page dictionary on sale in the bookstore. As I was taking it to the cashier, I noticed two lovely young women at the magazine rack. "Excuse me ladies, I was just wondering whether you were attracted to a guy with a BIG dictionary?" I immediately continued on to the cashier, but looked back to see them having a good laugh!) - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 17:05, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

See WP:ENGVAR. Dougweller (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, you apparently aren't aware that there were two spellings of 'judgement' conflicting with many spellings of 'judgment' in the article. Pardon me if I didn't make it clear that you NEVER want to have two different spellings going on of a word in an article or essay of any kind! It just confuses the reader and violates a basic rule of not only English grammar, but every language's grammar. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course you want it consistent, I didn't realise that was the issue, but then I should have guessed from the section heading. I was born and raised in Miami by the way. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm from Tampa, nice to meet you. Jasonasosa (talk) 01:24, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug & Jason, I see that the article now (9.18.11) consistently uses the spelling of 'judgment'. My judgment is that that is a good thing and I pray that the two of you will recognize my other contributions to this article as being very important, properly referenced, and stop deleting everything I contribute! - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Seeing that Doug is from Miami and Jason is from Tampa reminds me of a joke I first told as a teen... If you're from Miami, you're a Miamian. And if you're from Tampa, you're a Tampon. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

4 Views of Interpreting the 7 seals

There are certainly more than these 4 referenced interpretations of what the "7 seals" are than what Jason has provided. Over time, I and perhaps others, will edit this section with other referenced interpretations. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 17:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Hence the phrase New layout. Jasonasosa (talk) 17:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Gottcha. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Exact wording of opening two paragraphs

The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation - the Bible's last book - that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the "book" or "scroll" that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals, on the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book/scroll is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes".

Upon opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four seals release The Four Horsemen, each with their own specific mission. The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word of God". The sixth seal prompts cataclysmic events. The seventh seal queues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn queue the seven bowl judgments.

Note: No Americans use "queue" and I AM not even sure that Jason is using it correctly here? - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Wiki is not limited to American word usage. Anyway, I used the incorrect word as you stated. Sorry. Jasonasosa (talk) 20:21, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, I AM well aware that "Wikipedia is not limited to American word usage". I had deleted 'queue' long ago, but you incorrectly resurrected it. It appears that now we can agree 'queue' is dead. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "queue" is dead. lol Jasonasosa (talk) 18:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, "lol"? How inappropriate re: scholarly research. You've put yourself in the position of dictating what is and isn't in this all-important article. "Great power must come with great responsibility" - Spiderman - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

'Secrets of the 7 Seals' - History Channel program

"Today, believers are seeking connection between science and the 7 seals...they look to science for answers." - History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 17:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

"The book/scroll...sealed with seven seals" [7]

"The book/scroll...sealed with seven seals" ref. Rev 5:1. Every Bible uses the wording "sealed with seven seals". To not refer to this is quite negligent of the writer (Jason). And as stated before, the KJV uses the word "book", yet apparently every English version of the Bible since uses "scroll". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

To address this issue, we need more editors involved in this discussion. It boils down to quoting from the authorized version (KVJ), or other versions (modern versions)... I will address it in a new section. Jasonasosa (talk) 18:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I had to think about the use of "sealed" for the "The book sealed with seven seals". I now support its usage to prevent any ambiguous thinking of the word seal. Thanks,Jasonasosa (talk) 19:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, without accepting "book/scroll", you are contining "ambiguous thinking of the word seal". In antiquity, a wax seal with the imprint of a signet would be placed on an important scroll, not on a book which were very rare compared to the very common use of scrolls. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Titles

Brad Watson, please read: Wikipedia:Article titles#Article title format so that you can contribute something that won't get deleted. I admire your enthusiasm to edit, but you have to follow Wiki rules. I would post this on your User account... if you had one. Please consider getting a User account on wiki. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 18:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, did you delete my reply? If so, that's clearly against the rules of Wikipedia Discussion Pages and you could get yourself banned from here. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Book vrs. Scroll

Hello all editors. For those interested in the page's development, what is the appropriate word to use throughout this article? “Book” from KJV, or “Scroll” from modern versions? For example, in the title:

The ______ with seven seals

I support “Book” from the authorized oldest source, but not all editors agree with this. Please provide feedback on what word ought to be used throughout this article, “book” or “scroll”. Further, I am avidly against the dual phrase: "book/scroll". I don't believe this is appropriate encyclopedic terminology. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, the "oldest source" of the Bible is NOT the King James Version (KJV) - it isn't even the oldest English language version of the Bible! Please do some research before presenting your "facts". Do you consider yourself a Bible and "7 seals" expert? I do. Every scholar - including myself - appears to agree that John of Patmos historically wrote on a scroll, hence why the Hebrew Bible, Greek Septuagent, and Latin Vulgate have been translated for the last two hundred years as "scroll". I AM avidly for the all-inclusive phrase "book/scroll" - this is the best description of the actual "book/scroll" and is certainly "appropriate encyclopedic terminology". Furthermore, you constantly delete "sealed with "7 seals" although this exact wording is found in KJV and every Bible I've ever seen to the best of my recollection. What's your problem with the exact wording of every different Bible version? Please answer that. Why did you immediately delete the referenced quote from History Channel's "Secrets of the 7 Seals"? Please answer that. Do you agree that anyone editing this all-important Christian artice should be practicing The Golden Rule? You should read it. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 19:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Perhaps I should rephrased my support for KJV. My official statement for the use of KVJ is: "I support “Book” from the authorized oldest common source in English, the King James Version."
2. Please show me one encyclopedia that would use "book / scroll" to describe this Revelation narrative, and I will comply.
3. I do not have a problem "with the exact wording of every different Bible version". The article can state all the different versions of the document that had seven scrolls... but we ought to stick to one agreed upon word throughout the article.
4. In regards to the quote from the History Channel, let all editors of this page decide:

"Today, believers are seeking connection between science and the 7 seals...they look to science for answers." - History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals.

To all editors, is this quote encyclopedic? I think not.

5. No. All editors editing "this all-important Christian artice" should NOT be practicing The Golden Rule. They should be practicing the Wikipedia:Editing policy and Wikipedia:Manual of Style. That is my official statement.

Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 19:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, it's not (a) Golden Rule or (b) "practicing the 'Wikipedia:Editing Policy' and 'Wikipedia:Manuel of Style'", it's choice (c) both of the above. Your continual disrespect to the sacredness of this article and to me is allowed by the rules of Wikipedia, but... - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

And that about wraps it up. Jasonasosa (talk) 19:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Book vrs. Scroll (Round 2)

The issue of Book vrs. Scroll has not yet reached an agreement. I encourage interested editors to poll your support for the word that should be used when refering to the document that had the seven seals. For example, the title:

The ______ sealed with seven seals

Current choices are:

1. "Book" (KJV)
2. "Scroll" (modern versions, eg. NIV)
3. "Book/Scroll" (Duality)

Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I for one, primarily favor "Book", but will settle with "Scroll", and will avidly protest "Book/Scroll". Jasonasosa (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, it's not Capital letters - it's not capital letters in the KJV or in any version of the Bible! It's "book/scroll". Please read your different Bible versions more carefully. How many different translations/versions of the Bible do you own? As I stated before, I have about 25. And 'vs.' is the correct abbreviation for 'versus', I believe 'vrs.' is the abbreviation for 'verses' and both of those should be correct on 'either side of the pond'. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 23:07, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Only a scroll would be sealed with a seal{s)

The question of whether this article should refer to the "book/scroll" is affected by the fact that although the KJV in Rev 5:1 refers to it as a "book", how would anyone in antiquity use a literal seal in sealing a book? They wouldn't! A wax seal would only be attached to a scroll. Every literal defintion of 'seal' - including the two provided by Jason and myself - refer to "a scroll being sealed with a seal". So should the entire article consistently refer to only the "scroll sealed with 7 seals" and ignore the KJV completely? No, how could any scholar ignore the KJV? They wouldn't. What to do? It's simple, refer to it as the "book/scroll" and the problem is solved. Is this a unique term? Yes. Is the "book/scroll" a unique and very special work that only the Christ can produce, it changes the world, and therefore, it should be deemed worthy of a special description all its own? Yes. (Do I like asking questions and then aswering them myself? Uh...apparently.) - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 22:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

== The book sealed with seven seals== - deleted until quotations backing it are provided

I asked for quotations and none were supplied. This may not be original research but it certainly looks like it. Specifically I want quotations which talk about the Seven Seals and also that back "Sealing with such a signet was also applied to the tomb of Jesus". Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 06:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

There was "some good" content in there until it got all jacked up. The problem is there are 5 biblical definitions for "seal" and only one applies to the Revelation. So those paragraphs got convoluted with information that didn't apply... ex: "Sealing with such a signet was also applied to the tomb of Jesus"... which should not even be posted on this article.

I will attempt a second time to provide something... I just hope this time it doesn't get modified out of control again. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 07:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. We shouldn't be adding everything the Bible says about seals to this article. Dougweller (talk) 10:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, what are you talking about? You asked me for quotations and I DID supply them! I supplied them almost one year ago. Doug, please don't misquote me (or anyone else for that matter). I never said "it's in the Bible". I clearly gave the reference of the definition of 'seal, signet' as coming from p. 28 of the glossary of the Revised Standard Version entitled A Dictionary Of The Bible. This is the fourth time I've had to explain this to you besides it being properly referenced in the article that you and Jason unfortunately chose to delete for the wrong reasons. But, the Bible verse you requested is from Matthew 27:66, "So they went and made the sepulchre secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard" (KJV,RSV,etc.). The Literal and Figurative Definition of Seal needs to be returned to the article page and it should include this reference to the Christ breaking open the seal of his tomb. The symbolic connection between that event and his later producing the "book/scroll sealed with the 7 seals" is most important! Don't you agree? - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 12:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, you continue to attempt to dominate the editing of this article, dismiss the Golden Rule, and not show me proper respect. I've asked you if you consider yourself qualified as a Bible scholar and expert on the "7 seals", yet you didn't answer that. I asked you how many different Bibles you have and you didn't answer. You make reference to the "authorized King James Version", authorized by who? You? The Roman Catholic Church certainly doesn't recognize the KJV as "authorized" by the Vatican - just the opposite! The Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't recognize the KJV as its "authorized English Bible". Many English-speaking Protestant churches today do NOT use the KJV as their primary Bible source. Wikipedia recognizes many other English Bible versions, but yet you don't! And your "official statements" sound as if, well... If I AM permitted to edit this article without unfair interference from you, then the important truths regarding the "7 seals" on the "book/scroll" will be stated in this article. It's Sunday morning and I AM now off to church. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You don't understand the difference between writing an article here and writing an essay or an article elsewhere. Here your sources need to discuss the subject. If your source about a seal doesn't discuss the seal in the context of the Seven Seals, then you can't use it. Thus the seal on Jesus's tomb doesn't belong in the article unless you can find a reliable source relating it to the Seven Seals. Dougweller (talk) 14:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well good morning sunshine!! :D . Okay, well, firstly Brad... and correct me if I'm wrong Doug, but the scope of this article is essentially the seven seals of the Apocalypse. Brad, you really need to read Wikipedia:No original research. Although there may be in fact a connection between Matthew 27:66 and the book of the Apocalypse, the only way you can legitimately post the Matthew reference is if... there is a published secondary source that explains how that passage in the book of Matthew connects to the seven seals of the Apocalypse. You can't offer that connection on your own.

Secondly Brad, your "fourth time" that you "had to explain this" (being the definition of "seal") has been four different definitions when only one definition applys.

Now about me dominating the article... I am sorry if you feel that I've caused you disrespect. The reason why I have "dominated" the article is because it did not originally comply with Wiki standards and many other editors expressed their frustration over this if you even bothered to read what they've said farthur up this discussion page. There was way too much original research being done here. So... I came in with a new layout, for this very difficult article, that would make it easier to provide secondary sources in its appropriate spots. If Doug didn't like it... he would have reverted it. When I edit, I know I'm "okay" if User: Dougweller doesn't say anything... and I know he watches. :P .

Now to answer a few questions:

1. Am I a "qualified scholar" ? Official statement: No, I am not a qualified scholar, I'm a wikipedia editor. That means... if I'm wrong, I comply and I can admit when I'm wrong.
2. I'm not even going to answer you about how I think the KJV is authorized. It's just a matter of preference when editing on wiki because if there is ever a debate over modern versions, debates usually would slide back down to the KJV for resolution... but, I admit, that might be an "old school" way of thinking.

::One more thing... pay attention at church and stop brewing over this discussion in your mind while you are there. You are at church to listen to the Word of God... not thinking about wiki edit wars. :)

Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, your last comment was totally against the rules of Wikipedia Discussion Pages. It was personal, completely inappropriate, and will be reported unless you delete it. You as one who here has laughed at the sacredness of the "7 seals", who has admitted to not being interested in the truth, and has admitted to not following the Golden Rule, is certainly in NO position to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do at Church! You may be "at war" here, I AM not. I do NOT promote war in anyway - it's ungodly! I AM a Wikipedia editor as well and I AM here to spread truthful knowledge which I believe is the purpose behind the founding of Wikipedia. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, maybe I was out of line with my last comment. I'm sorry User: Dougweller. Doug, if you want me to delete it I will, or you can punish me... either way... Jasonasosa (talk) 15:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

BTW, if you are running to your computer to see what the next person says... more than likely, you are in a war. ;) Cheers, Jasonasosa (talk) 15:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Strike through it please, don't delete it. Brad, we aren't really interested in whether they are really sacred, just that the article is well written and uses sources properly. Dougweller (talk) 16:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, in my POV, I do view the contents of the Apocolypse as sacred, while I'm able to use secondary sources properly. I may not always write the article well, but I'm not opposed to experienced editors correcting me. Brad, I'm sorry for the comment I made earlier about church, it was inappropriate on this wiki page. Jasonasosa (talk) 18:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph 9.18.11 07:47 EDT

This is the opening paragraph with its explanation of "book" (KJV) and a new reference from Dr. Henrietta C. Mears' book...

The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the book (KJV) or scroll, that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals, on the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes". These are symbolic terms for the Christ. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 12:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Mears simply is not a good enough source to claim as fact that these are symbolic terms for Christ, and as I said in my edit summary, the lead summaries the text of the article. You would also need a source for 'practically all recent Bible versions use 'scroll'. Dougweller (talk) 19:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Influence - Television, History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals

Under the category of Influence and the subcategory of Television, I added... History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals.

Doug & Jason, I pray this meets with your approval. Earlier I had added a very important quote from the program that got unfairly deleted, "Today, believers are seeking connection between science and the '7 seals'...they look to science for answers". Another important quote from the program re: the "book" or "scroll" and the Christ producing it, "This appears to be a title deed to the universe and God's prophetic plan". Indeed, and this should also be added to the article! - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

That statement is not encyclopedic, it's not even informative. Jasonasosa (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The mention of the program under Television is fine. Jasonasosa (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason, you are wrong about the quotes being encylopedic and you are wrong about them being informative. You are blind to many truths in your determination to be master of this article. The History Channel program on the Secrets of the 7 Seals has probably been seen by about 1,000,000 viewers of all beliefs, whereas, the incorrect views you promote have been read by a few hundred Christian fundamentalists. A large percentage of Christians are also very scientific (including me) and look for a scientific explanation of the "7 seals" and a scientific explanation of nature's physical reactions that are produced when the Christ opens the seals and reveals the secret information of them and what else is hidden within the "book/scroll". It is this correct scientific interpretation of the prophecy that you vehemently oppose and that I vehemently support. May the correct interpretation of the "7 seals" win! - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 00:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Brad, I would LOVE to see the scientific interpretation of the Seven Seals if you could only provide a secondary sourced reference! Jasonasosa (talk) 00:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph 9.18.11 7:47 PM EDT (edit form)

Jason has taken it upon himself to not let anything other than his posts stay on the article page as soon as he is notified that any change has taken place. The readers of this discussion page can judge my posts here. The following is the current version of the opening two paragraphs, but Jason won't let it remain there long. I've exposed the references...

The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the book (ref: Revelation 5:1-10:10, King James Version of the Bible [KJV], 1607) or scroll, (ref: Good News Translation (GNT), American Bible Society, 1992, note: Possibly all recent Bible versions use "scroll", i.e. New International Version, Revised Standard Version, International Chlidren's Bible, New American Bible") that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals, on the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes". (ref: Revelation 5:5–6) This symbolically refers to the Christ. (ref: What The Bible Is All About - Bible Handbook, by Dr. Henrietta C. Mears, Regal p. 663)

Upon Christ opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four seals release The Four Horsemen, each with their own specific mission. (ref: Revelation 6:1–8) The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word of God". (ref:Revelation 6:9–11) The sixth seal prompts cataclysmic events. (ref:Revelation 6:12–17) The seventh seal cues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn cues the seven bowl judgments. (ref:Revelation 8:1–13)

- Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 23:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

When I went in to clean up your mess, I messed up a < ref > tag that made it look like the paragraph was deleted. I fixed it now. Also, you need to site good references and not pull them out of nowhere! I'm checking your references. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Brad, you need to read: Wikipedia:No original research before you do any edits, that is why I keep having to delete all of your posts.. none of it is supported, bad references, you put 666 with the Antichrist when the Antichrist is not even a word used in Revelation... so how do you make the association without a secondary source? Come on man, read up on how to edit on wiki... cause I'm sick of this. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2011 (UTC)