User talk:WalkerThrough: Difference between revisions

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Welcome!

Welcome to Wikipedia, WalkerThrough! Thank you for your contributions. I am Intelati and have been editing Wikipedia for quite some time, so if you have any questions feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. You can also check out Wikipedia:Questions or type {{helpme}} at the bottom of this page. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name using four tildes (~~~~); that will automatically produce your username and the date. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

intelati talk 20:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles

Hi WalkerThrough, I see you are having a bit of a discussion with JamesBWatson on your talk pages. It would be better to have this discussion on the Discussion page of the Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles article. In that way others could more easily join in. Martijn Meijering (talk) 21:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Unbelievers"

Based on some comments I've seen at Talk:Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles, I recommend that you look overthis essay discussing how the Gospel and this site's neutrality and sourcing guidelines actually cooperate. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, WalkerThrough. You have new messages at LWG's talk page.
Message added 19:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

LWG ^talk 19:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked

You have been edit-warring and engaging in tendentious editing on the bible article. I have blocked your account for 24 hours. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is unfair, religious discrimination, and wrong. Slrub is the one that twice reverted my edits, I only reverted his once. Then I put a POV tag and who gets blocked?? You got it, the Christian. Unbiased? I don't think so. Oh and User "Mark of the Beast" comments against me on the ANI, lol. Wow.

I am very displeased and disappointed with the recent behavior by anti-Christian editors on WP. They are making some WP articles biased and religiously discriminatory. Who would of ever thought that you can have an Encyclopedia page about the Bible in which the editors refuse to mention its own claim to divine inspiration in the main section...awful. This is really lowering the quality of the relevant WP articles. Then Slrub follows me around to my other good edits on other pages and reverts them (if any believers could go to my contribs and revert Slrub's bias, I would appreciate it). When I appeal to ANI about discrimination, I get banned. This comes down to who has the numbers, and their bias wins. So, if unbelievers have the majority on WP, which at times it seems to be true, then they get their way totally against common sense and reason, including censoring out the Christian views with strong Reliable sources about the Bible. This is sad and wrong. The WP Bible page is not neutral because its editors are censoring out the Christian view in the lead (which is the only section many people may read). I pray for those who have made themselves my enemies, that they may be saved and receive wisdom, as the LORD says: "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord." Without that, they have no wisdom, as it shows with my recent interactions with them. These anti-Christian types are seriously downgrading the worth of certain WP articles. One day, they will find out that Jesus is Lord, and the Bible is His Word. Until then, maybe they will stay in darkness. The good news in all this is that everyone knows WP is a secular Encyclopedia, and therefore not trustworthy for matters of faith, like information on the Bible. Happily, I believe many on the internet will go to a Christian source for truth on the Bible (I've been told WP is not about truth). Fine then, if that's how WP editors see it. The world can go elsewhere for the truth, who has a Name: Jesus. God bless all of you, even those who opposed me (and didn't want me to bless them). Love in the King, WalkerThrough (talk) 20:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, WalkerThrough. If you disagree with your block, I suggest you read the Guide to appealing blocks. If you place {{unblock | reason=your reason here ~~~~}} on this page, another administrator will review your block. I do strongly recommend that you first read the guide, though. At the moment, your block will last for 24 hours; after that time has elapsed, you will be able to edit then. If you wish to continue contributing to the Bible article once your block is over, I would suggest that you take part in the discussions on the talk page before making any edits to the article itself. There is a discussion in progress about what the content of the article should be and some of the concerns you raised are being addressed. However, editing the page before taking part in discussion may be seen as disruptive. If you have any problems, please let me know. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 20:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ANI

Hi, WalkerThrough. Just so you know, ANI is a terrible place to take a dispute. You got off easy; that place is a viper's nest. I don't know who advised you to go there, but it was bad advice. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You said it, "Mark of the Beast" was very quick to come out against me. Nobody advised me, but I wanted to go to a higher authority. I am hoping the Admin Zippy that responded can help. He seems to be going in the right direction on the talk page. Thank you for your support of getting it in the lead where it belongs. I'm hoping it ends up in its rightful place. Does this kind of thing go to a vote, with a majority win? God bless you. WalkerThrough (talk) 20:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I'm not an admin. As for the discussion, the decision is made by consensus. This is not a straight vote, but a discussion between editors. A consensus is reached where a majority of editors reach a common decision. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 20:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That decision tends to follow the existing guidelines, like WP:DUE, which were formed as site-wide consensus. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict w/ the above 2 comments) WalkerThrough, we don't generally decide things by voting. As others have noted, Wikipedia:Consensus is the relevant policy, but as you might expect, the actual determination of consensus is often extremely complicated and difficult.

When I am aware of, or involved in, a content dispute, my first recourse is discussion on the talk page. If that seems not to be working, I look at the top of the talk page for relevant WikiProjects and post notes on their talk pages, requesting opinions from anyone reading there. My third option, seldom needed, would be a content RFC (that's "Request For Comment").

I know, this site is full of ill-marked roads, many of which feature dangerous potholes, and worse. I'm sorry it's not easier to know what to do. Please feel free to ask me for help anytime, though. I am an administrator (for whatever that's worth), and I'm a bit experienced in navigating our minefields. I also try to make it a point to, um, treat others as I'd like to be treated? I think I read that somewhere. ;)

Please do be careful around here, though. You're learning that... -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some advice which I recommended earlier

Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy means that: Wikipedia is not concerned with facts or opinions, it just summarizes reliable sources. Real scholarship actually does not say what understanding of the world is "true," but only with what there is evidence for. In the case of science, this evidence must ultimately start with physical evidence. In the case of religion, Wikipedia only reports what has been written and does not take any stance on doctrine.

--This also means that due weight is given, and undue weight is not. The Bible is respected not just by Christians, but many other religions.

Jesus commands us to not pass judgement -- Judge not, that ye be not judged. -- (Matthew 7:1)
He commands us this because we are imperfect -- And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Matt. 1:3) and Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
We should not lash out against someone if we think they're hiding the truth of Christ with the NPOV policy -- Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:21)
Indeed, going along with the NPOV policy is a good idea: it allows us to prevent truely anti-Christian points of view from dominating articles -- If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (Matt. 5:39-41)
Christ doesn't need us to protect His truth, anyway, God will do so. -- The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalms 12:6-7)

Back up, and try and imagine this from someone else's perspective. Imagine if a Muslim came into the Qur'an article and insisted that the article state that the Qur'an says it is the word of God. Imagine if he then blames the reversion not on a lack of neutrality, but on others opposing Islam. What would you think of this individual? Imagine if this person refused to acknowledge any reason given by other editors, but insisted that his edits be allowed, not on the basis of the site's guidelines, but his own religious beliefs. This person would not give you a good impression of Islam, would he? Ian.thomson (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Ian. The problem here is not following WP policy. I have been. I included 6 RS for that statement in the lead. Your example of the Muslim is different, because I've been insisting that it be included on the basis of the site's guidelines. Also, I've been blaming the reversion on a lack of neutrality as well as opposing the Bible. The problem is the numerous non-believers that just don't want the Word of God known and they use their numbers to make it happen. Why did you remove the POV. You are my brother, you need to support me. The article is not being neutral if the Christian view is censored out. Please support your brother, Ian. WalkerThrough (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing you are missing is that disputes on wikipedia are not settled by bludgeoning the opposition into sitting down and shutting up, they are settled by reaching a solution that all parties can be on board with. If you want my advice, I'd suggest that you stay out of the article for a while, even after your block expires. Your viewpoints have been heard, and we are moving towards a more positive discussion, but I am afraid that if you return with more complaints you may incite further bad feelings, whether justified or not. LWG ^talk 21:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To reiterate what LWG is saying: Diplomacy is paramount here. Being right is maybe 5% of the game. It's better to be effective and a bit slow-working than to be right and blocked. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, depending upon the definition you're using for "right", being right may be 0% of the game - Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 21:40, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I almost never repeat that particular mantra. I find it's often more escalatory than de-escalatory, and there are better ways to get the same point across. In terms of diplomacy, it's not a successful dictum, in my experience. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I've had the opposite experience - in many cases, its led to an epiphany - an "ah-hah!" moment that has turned an edit warrior completely around. Sometimes there is (extreme) surprise, but then they read the relevant bit, maybe ask a few questions, and then they "get" it. Of course, this may be the time I see the side of the coin you've seen. :-/ KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 22:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, or vice-versa. It's a big, beautiful, complicated world. :) I know you and I are on the same team, KC, so I'm not overly concerned about this matter of semantics. Walker can see both of our points here, I think. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:20, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi GT, you're great. May God bless you, and I know He has. In terms of the Bible lead, I hope we don't let slip the importance, like you said, of also including a statement that the Bible says it is inspired by God, in addition to the fact of so many people believing it. What the Bible says matters more than what 7 billion people believe, because it is the Word of God. There are 5 editors who have expressed support for this in the lead. Hopefully, we can build on that to reach a general agreement for inclusion. WalkerThrough (talk) 22:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am a man

For some reason one editor, Slrub, has been referring to me as she or her. I don't know if he has done this to try and downplay my edits, or insult me. Why he assumed I'm a woman, I don't know. I'd like everyone to know that I'm a man, created by the living God. I praise my Creator: "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well." (Psalm 139:14)^[1] WalkerThrough (talk) 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure Slrub was not trying to insult you. Some people on the internet use "she" to refer to someone whose gender they do not know in an attempt to point out the way other people assume maleness and use "he". LWG ^talk 23:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also please don't think someone is trying to downplay your edits by referring to you as female as we don't consider edits from females any less then those from males Nil Einne (talk) 02:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More than half of the world's population are female, so when I do not know someone's gender I refer to that person as she. If you prefer I refer to you as he, I will from now on, of course. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But at the same time, 87% of Wikipedians are male. Zooming in to a more defined population does change statistical breakdowns of population. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to let people know that you are male, you could always pop this on your talk page. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:53, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page access revoked

Thank you very much for letting me speak. I have come to understand that any controversial edit I make without first the approval of the community is almost certainly not going to remain in the Bible page. So, I would like to say that I'm sorry for my misunderstanding when I added the statement in the lead. When Doug seemed to say that there was agreement for a statement in the lead, he said that I could work the wording. I am new, and I thought that meant I could put it in the article. I didn't know that meant I had to first put it on the talk page to discuss it. When my addition was reverted, after I felt I had the go ahead from Doug and the community (although now I realize I was mistaken), I was unhappy and went to ANI. It seems like that caused lots of problems. I would like to contribute positively towards the discussion. I am at this point not the best person to make any controversial edit on the Bible page. I would like for another to make any final edit after the community reaches consensus, which I hope will be the best one. I would very much appreciate it if I could at least contribute on the Bible talk page. I can also stop charging others with fault. I would like to focus on the content, not the editor. I hope this satisfies Maunus. I know you guys will be monitoring my activities, and I'd really not liked to get blocked again. So I think I've learned some things not to do. I am new here and would appreciate some grace as I'm learning. Sincerely,WalkerThrough (talk) 00:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think this goes a long way towards demonstrating understanding of the principles that we operate by, I am especially happy that you express a will to learn and a will to focus on improving content through civil discussion. I am shortening your block to 12 hours, so that we can all have a good night's sleep (or whatever your time zone lets you do in the next 12hrs) and go to work on improving the page tomorrow. Please don't abuse the good faith that you are being shown. Sincerely, ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Maunus, I appreciate that. WalkerThrough (talk) 04:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Walker - just to say that I am glad to see your return - Lugnad (talk) 19:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'm glad to see your return. I wish you were around yesterday. God bless you WalkerThrough (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am going abroad tomorrow, so please excuse me for a time, you will do just fine Lugnad (talk) 21:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I like having you around. May God bless your trip, and if you pray, please remember this situation. WalkerThrough (talk) 21:30, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember to use edit summaries

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Before saving your edits, please provide an edit summary, which you forgot to do before saving your recent edits. Doing so helps everyone understand the intention of your edit (and prevents legitimate edits from being mistaken for vandalism). It is also helpful to users reading the edit history of the page. Thank you. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:Bible

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bible#Other Abrahamic religions - lead. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 20:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48[reply]

Thanks, just did. WalkerThrough (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 2011

Please do not edit to promote your own personal point of view to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Acts of the Apostles. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. Do not edit war to include yet more Biblical sources and views. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:45, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am following WP policy and maintaining a NPOV in the article. Yes, I have my own POV, but I am properly sourcing in accordance with NPOV, V, PRIMARY, and NOR. Please don't hound me and accuse me of breaking policy when I am actually following it. Come on Killer, please be fair to me. Those were good sourced statements! This is unprofessional and uncalled for to harass me at every move when I am doing nothing wrong (you are coming close to violating WP:Harass). A case could be made for harassment by looking at the record. I don't want to have report this somewhere. The sources were already there, and someone took out good RS. They should be in the article according to WP policy and to better the article. WalkerThrough (talk) 00:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When your indefinite block was reduced to 12 hours, I promised on ANI to keep an eye on you. I am doing so. I am attempting to warn you not in order to cause you grief, but so you will be aware and examine your actions and change your behavior and approach so you do not run afoul of those policies. If you wish to ignore my helpful advice, you will eventually be blocked, for you are not editing according to policy. A more helpful attitude would be not "I'm not violating policy!"but "how am I violating policy, and how can I improve?" KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 01:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Back to our discussion of truth, it is utterly false that I am breaking WP policy. It is true that you are getting close to harassing me. If you want to live in a world where truth doesn't matter, then you can continue your pattern of hounding me, and I can take this to the appropriate authority for harassment. You are doing more than keeping an eye on me, you are opposing almost any edit I do. Stop hounding me Killer! I don't want your advice any more. WalkerThrough (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges. It is clear from this edit and similar that you are uninterested in producing a factual encyclopedia but wish to insert tracts from your own beliefs. Whilst an encyclopedia can reference such beliefs, it cannot present such beliefs as reliable sources, since they clearly are not. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Black Kite (t) (c) 01:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This user is asking that his block be reviewed:

WalkerThrough (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

This is very unfair. Since my last block I have not done any disruptive editing. I have been following WP policy. Then an administrator (KillerChihuahua) starts hounding me when I am doing good edits and following all policies. When I ask her to back off because she was coming close to harassing me, I get blocked indefinitely for abusive editing with a very bad example. This does not have to do with disruptive editing. This has to do with an administrator opposing me at every turn, and when I warn her about harassment, I get blocked. Someone please help me. Please look at the edit mentioned for blocking. It is a sourced statement according to the Bible and what Christians believe. That does not break WP policy. I am presenting the Christian view neutrally. How unfair. This is religious discrimination. WalkerThrough (talk) 01:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notes:

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{{Unblock on hold |1=blocking administrator |2=This is very unfair.  Since my last block I have not done any disruptive editing.  I have been following WP policy.  Then an administrator (KillerChihuahua) starts hounding me when I am doing good edits and following all policies.  When I ask her to back off because she was coming close to harassing me, I get blocked indefinitely for abusive editing with a very bad example.  This does not have to do with disruptive editing.  This has to do with an administrator opposing me at every turn, and when I warn her about harassment, I get blocked.  Someone please help me.  Please look at the edit mentioned for blocking.  It is a sourced statement according to the Bible and what Christians believe.  That does not break WP policy.  I am presenting the Christian view neutrally.  How unfair.  This is religious discrimination. [[User:WalkerThrough|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top|talk]]) 01:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |3 = ~~~~}}

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{{unblock reviewed |1=This is very unfair.  Since my last block I have not done any disruptive editing.  I have been following WP policy.  Then an administrator (KillerChihuahua) starts hounding me when I am doing good edits and following all policies.  When I ask her to back off because she was coming close to harassing me, I get blocked indefinitely for abusive editing with a very bad example.  This does not have to do with disruptive editing.  This has to do with an administrator opposing me at every turn, and when I warn her about harassment, I get blocked.  Someone please help me.  Please look at the edit mentioned for blocking.  It is a sourced statement according to the Bible and what Christians believe.  That does not break WP policy.  I am presenting the Christian view neutrally.  How unfair.  This is religious discrimination. [[User:WalkerThrough|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top|talk]]) 01:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |decline = {{subst:Decline reason here}} ~~~~}}

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{{unblock reviewed |1=This is very unfair.  Since my last block I have not done any disruptive editing.  I have been following WP policy.  Then an administrator (KillerChihuahua) starts hounding me when I am doing good edits and following all policies.  When I ask her to back off because she was coming close to harassing me, I get blocked indefinitely for abusive editing with a very bad example.  This does not have to do with disruptive editing.  This has to do with an administrator opposing me at every turn, and when I warn her about harassment, I get blocked.  Someone please help me.  Please look at the edit mentioned for blocking.  It is a sourced statement according to the Bible and what Christians believe.  That does not break WP policy.  I am presenting the Christian view neutrally.  How unfair.  This is religious discrimination. [[User:WalkerThrough|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top|talk]]) 01:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |accept = accept reason here ~~~~}}

Blocked again...This is religious discrimination

Someone please help. WalkerThrough (talk) 01:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When Black Kite first blocked me, there was no example. Now after blocking the administrator is digging for examples. Oh Lord, help me. WalkerThrough (talk) 01:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

^ http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=139&t=KJV#14. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[1] ttp://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=139&t=KJV#14. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[1]

Revision as of 01:20, 30 September 2011 view source WalkerThrough (talk \| contribs) 277 edits →Blocked again...This is religious discrimination: new section ← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:22, 30 September 2011 view source WalkerThrough (talk \| contribs) 277 edits →Blocked again...This is religious discrimination Next edit →
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	Someone please help. [[User:WalkerThrough\|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top\|talk]]) 01:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)		Someone please help. [[User:WalkerThrough\|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top\|talk]]) 01:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

			When Black Kite first blocked me, there was no example. Now after blocking the administrator is digging for examples. Oh Lord, help me. [[User:WalkerThrough\|WalkerThrough]] ([[User talk:WalkerThrough#top\|talk]]) 01:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)