Talk:Cloud computing

Nomination of Cloud engineering for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Cloud engineering is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cloud engineering until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The definition

Where are the references that support the latest definition? Is it used anywhere else, or is it personal research? It is very different to the OED definition, which must have been written by an independent expert. It is also different to many vendor’s definitions, and most end-user, non-expert definitions that I can find. I agree with the need to change the previous definition, partly because it was difficult to understand, but at least there was a reference that supported it (ie NIST).

I was not a party to previous discussions that resulted in the use of the term networks rather than the Internet. Could anyone re-iterate the reasons why this term is used, and only typically the Internet, when most of the uses that I can find say cloud computing is Internet accessible, not just network accessible?

The definition doesn't say what is included and what is excluded. Surely not all network accessible resources are included? Surely web search is excluded – but it’s computing and it’s a service accessible over the Internet? Fcalculators (talk) 02:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Refer to the archives for (extensive) discussions on the topic. Regarding "Internet" vs "network", I agree but the market doesn't — there's a huge amount of activity in "cloud" computing that is not connected to the Internet and I think we need to be compatible with this alternative definition (which goes beyond WP:FRINGE). Finally, web search is, arguably, a cloud service. -- samj _in^out 22:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have read the discussion as suggested, and I can see that a great deal of effort has gone into arriving at a definition, often in difficult circumstances. However, I don’t think the definition is completely accurate, sufficiently inclusive or specific.

For example, I may be misunderstanding Private Cloud, but if there is only one tenant, then the resources aren’t shared, except among the individual users of the single tenant, but then that applies to all virtualised resources.

It’s a pity that the linked-to article on Service (economics) doesn’t discuss pricing, but there is utility pricing, where consumers pay for what is used (like electricity), and subscription pricing, where consumers pay for a fixed amount whether they use none, some or all of it (like mobile phone calls). I am aware of cloud services that are charged for by both models, but there are also some that are free.

There seems to be universal agreement that cloud refers to the Internet – as a noun it’s a synonym/metaphor, and, as an adjective, it means referring to the Internet or Internet-based. There are authoritative references to support these meanings, and there is a long usage history because of the cloud symbols that have been used to represent the Internet on diagrams, and before that the telephone system. So there seems to be no disagreement about its usage and derivation. Are the developments in “cloud” computing, really just developments in Computing as a Service (CaaS), which is a term that some sources are now using?

It doesn’t say what type of computing is included, and what is excluded. Many sources seem to agree that not everything in the cloud is included, so perhaps the definition should be more specific.Fcalculators (talk) 01:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Risks of cloud computing

Risks of cloud computing should be mentioned in this article to balance it. If a full discussion of risk factors is not deemed necessary a reference should be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.12.6 (talk) 07:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Your risk (e.g. multi-tenancy) is my benefit — hence the "Issues" section which avoids the whole pro/con argument. -- samj _in^out 22:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this comment, and I believe that there should be separate Advantages and Risks sections. After all, any development of computing is done because there are advantages, at least to some consumers/providers, but also there are always risks. Any pro/con arguments can be dealt with using references, and by clearly stating who is the beneficiary or risk taker. For example, there are many legal sites that discuss some of the issues/risks, including privacy for consumers, and many IT users agree that one of their benefits is financial - ie reduced TCO. Fcalculators (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Wireless Synchronization technologies

we need to discuss whether it is important to introduce a new section called Wireless Synchronization, and how most cloud services are built with synchronization technologies and anywhere access in mind. I would be interested to find out if anyone else is thinking about this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.50.102.28 (talk) 02:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that anywhere-access is a benefit, and it should be included in an Advantages section. However, I don't believe that this article should discuss implementation. It's too complicated, and most people will just want to know what cloud computing is and what it isn't. Implementation is important, but can I suggest a separate article called Cloud computing implementation or Cloud computing technologies? I believe that only a brief mention is needed here, with a link to a more detailed article for the technical readers. Fcalculators (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Overview and Characteristics

The Overview section contains a few grammatical errors (maybe typographical in origin, maybe resulting from stitching stuff together). In addition, it is still vague. While not really written as an advertisement, this section of the article still seems to be composed mostly of marketing language - it talks around the subject rather than directly describing it in concrete terms. Is cloud computing just spreading data across several servers in several places? Is it transferring workload from one set of servers to another automatically? Being on the web does not necessarily qualify something as cloud computing, just as being a fruit does not necessarily qualify something as being an orange. From this overview, I cannot really derive any concrete idea of what cloud computing is and what it is not.

In the Characteristics section, the article still seems to talk around the subject. There is not really a direct comparison being made. How are the listed examples similar to cloud computing? Also, how are they different? This should be stated explicitly. What is listed instead is simply a description of each example - that's not a comparison.

I would fix it myself, but I'm not an expert on cloud computing. Also, I recognize that it may be that cloud computing itself is just a marketing term that people and companies like to repeat to create a certain impression and it may therefore lack any objective, discrete definition. Blcklbl (talk) 14:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with these comments. Also, other sections are not really adequate. For example, the Architecture section doesn't say very much, and why a Deployment models section, but not Service models, Consumption models or Supplement models?

There are so many inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the article. For example, in the Overview, only some "Cloud computing providers deliver applications" - this is SaaS, what about IaaS, PaaS? Also, this sentence contradicts the definition when it says they "deliver applications via the Internet".

I believe that only a total re-write can fix this article, and this has been suggested before. Fcalculators (talk) 00:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

An article revision-history comment by 192.118.35.248 on 3 November, that “This article has been trashed up with inane and poorly written additions”, supports this suggestion for a re-write. Fcalculators (talk) 00:06, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Cloud computing's biggest risk: the transfer of the world's public knowledge to the private hands of a few companies

Various private companies are offering to their users the "free" hosting of their data, including personal and sensible data. Some of this companies (that are now offering free "cloud services" to the general public) are investing huge sums collecting and digitalizing the knowledge stored on public libraries/archives of the world. In this case the word "Cloud" is misleading because this data are phisically transferred and stored on enourmous and very costly, private server farms located in a few rich counties: there is no "cloud" but phisical servers and nets, and the term seems to be an artificial or commercial invention of some companies. In a few words the risk is the rapid transfer of many strategical and public data of the planet to the private hands of few companies, located in the richest countries, without any international law or warranty. With all the immaginable risks. An uncritical acceptance of this phenomenon is certainly dangerous for all. The poor countries, the different cultures, the simple citiziens of the world needs international warranties related the use and the access rights of their collective culture. Computing and information retrival is one of the main activity of today's humanity. Can we give away this strategical activity and the "collective memory" of the world to some private companies? This risk is not mentioned in the voice and when some months ago I inserted it was immediately deleted from someone. --Cornelius383 (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

As one of the people who was actively promoting the term "cloud" to describe a number of trends we were observing 5 years ago, I can assure you that it is not as nefarious as it seems (despite ill-conceived efforts by large vendors to try to take control). The concept you describe is an important issue, but your view is unbalanced — the incentives for centralisation (in terms of economies of scale, natural monopolies, etc.) are strong but on the other hand the risks need to be quantified and mitigated using the available options — reject it (not going to happen due to market forces), accept it (dangerous, as you explain), reduce it (for example through backups/synchronosiation/etc) and/or assign it (for example, by taking out insurance). I'm sure people would have argued against the introduction of the power grid (electricity as a service) too, for all sorts of weird and wonderful reasons — remember there would have been a large established industry around the provision and operation of generators (electricity as a product). -- samj _in^out 21:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

This seems to be a discussion of the subject, rather than how to improve the article. Fcalculators (talk) 00:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Because of the above comment that there is no cloud, perhaps the article could be improved if the origins of the term cloud are explained a bit more. As the article says, the word is used because of the cloud symbols that represent the Internet on diagrams, and before that the telephone system. The use of this symbol was a natural extension of the way diagrams were drawn, and the methods used to represent connections between pieces of equipment that were originally near each other in the same place, but that became distributed in different rooms, then different buildings and then different cities, etc. This usage is concrete and goes back decades. So in this sense there is a real cloud - it’s the Internet! But of course the word itself is only applied metaphorically. Fcalculators (talk) 00:54, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Article doesn't follow Understandability Guidelines

I believe that this article doesn't follow the Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable guideline, which says that articles should be as accessible as possible to the widest possible audience of potentially interested readers.

Does anyone else agree with this, and could anyone comment about what can be done to improve the situation from this point of view? One possibility is to write an Introduction to Cloud Computing article, and this is suggested by the guidelines, but there are other options. Fcalculators (talk) 01:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

An article revision-history comment by 192.118.35.248 on 3 November, that “This article has been trashed up with inane and poorly written additions”, supports this claim. Fcalculators (talk) 00:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Potential audience

The potential audience for this article would include computer users that are, or that may become, cloud consumers. This includes users of common small business applications such as accounting, and medium to large organisation line-of-business, mission-critical applications, such as ERP and CRM, which are now available in the cloud as software as a service. It would also include the management of such organisations, because they may be contemplating changing their IT strategy. Also, cloud storage services can now be accessed by any PC user with an Internet connection, and many people are cloud consumers, albeit perhaps unwittingly, because of iCloud and the use of free cloud services, such as webmail or social and professional networking. Most of these consumers would be non technical people, let alone IT experts.

So most readers would probably not be interested in too much technical detail, and would only want to know what cloud computing means for them. In other words, they would need concrete descriptions of what it is and what it isn’t, plus some specific examples.

The article doesn’t say what type of computing is included or excluded, and does not give any specific examples meaningful to non-expert consumers. Fcalculators (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Why many people don’t want their data on somebody else’s server

All the strong criticism against the "Cloud" are not evident in this article and are often immediately deleted as soon as inserted from someone. The voice appears strongly unbalanced and it's full of techicalities incomprehensible to most people... Is the Cloud the "coming dream" of mankind or it's something to be avoided to preserve the privacy of each? Why many private companies are offering free "Clouds" to the people? Who pays (and why) it's not clearly explained here. Internet is full of critical positions related with the risks of cloud computing if you only type "against the cloud" on your browser, you can find tons of documents, many are written by experts and researchers: 1)Argument against the Cloud or Why you don’t want your data on somebody else’s server, 2)Google's Blogger outage makes the case against a cloud-only strategy: The same week that Google made its strongest pitch ever for putting your entire business online, one of its flagship services has failed spectacularly by Ed Bott May 13, 2011, 3)Phil Wainewright on zdnet (When will the crowd turn against private cloud?: predicted that private clouds will be discredited by year end), 4)The Twitter case against the cloud, 5)Larry Ellison from Oracle rails against the Cloud and many others you can find yourself --Cornelius383 (talk) 20:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Please could you indicate when your edits are minor. Fcalculators (talk) 00:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with these comments: there should be a detailed section on Risks (as well as one on Advantages); and it's full of technicalities incomprehensible to most people.

For these reasons and others, I believe that this article is in need of a re-write, even if, as suggested above, there is an Introduction to Cloud Computing article. Even with a re-write, I believe that some topics should be in a separate article for true IT specialists. Fcalculators (talk) 00:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

An article revision-history comment by 192.118.35.248 on 3 November, that “This article has been trashed up with inane and poorly written additions”, supports this suggestion for a re-write. Fcalculators (talk) 00:08, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Utility computing

I'm confused. If Cloud computing is the delivery of computing as a service rather than a product, whereby shared resources, software, and information are provided to computers and other devices as a utility (like the electricity grid) over a network (typically the Internet), then how does it differ from Utility computing, to which, I believe, this article originally redirected? Cloud computing has taken on a life of its own but, judging by the age of its maintenance template, the older Utility computing article seems to have been forgotten about. ClaretAsh 00:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The original voice was Utility computing. Cloud computing has taken on a life of its own and the older Utility computing article seems to have been forgotten about. I propose to restablish the redirection.