Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big Brother Australia 2012

Big Brother Australia 2012

Big Brother Australia 2012 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Why the page should be deleted Jschro (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —Jschro (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I feel that this article should be deleted for a number of reasons. In accordance with {{Crystal}}:

Wikipedia is not a collection of product announcements and rumors. While Wikipedia includes up-to-date knowledge about newly revealed products, short articles that consist only of product announcement information are not appropriate. Until such time that more encyclopedic knowledge about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable. Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content.

It is too soon for this article to be created and only verified information should be included in the larger Big brother Related article. In the short time this page has been in existence there has been a great deal of debate over verifiable sources and a recent edit war. As the launch approaches there will be an abundance of rumors and speculation that will pass through the mainstream media. While normally reliable sources of information there is a large amount of grey area over what should be included and what should not. I feel that having this page stay in it's current form is an invitation for countless edits and an ongoing battle regarding the reliability of source material. Included in this discussion should be discussion of an acceptable date for creation of this article as well as CLEAR guidelines on what should and should not be included in the future article but what should be included when or if the article is merged with the larger Big Brother topic. Jschro (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep- There is no given reason as to why this page should be deleted. This page adheres to Wikipedia's rules and regulations. All information has come from official quotes and information provided by Nine and trusted affiliates. As far as I can see, everything that needs to be referenced is. Other countries have Big Brother pages for known seasons, I don't see why Australia is no different. I can understand if a page for 'Big Brother Australia 2013' would be deleted, but I cannot see why this one should. I think the person proposing deletion of this page has not thought this through properly. Any problems with the page can be discussed in Discussions and I would be happy to help and clean it up in regards to the problems, but without any given reasons, this is difficult to do. Bbmaniac (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you have now provided reason which was not provided before, thank you. The problems you listed are evident in many Big Brother related pages, and I do agree it is a shame, however I am happy to help out with you or a team to get this page back on track. The majority of the information contained currently is informative and based on fact. I don't see why this page is being targeted, I don't think deletion is necessary, but I would say this page serves a purpose. It is not far too early as information about the series will become available as soon as next week when the Nine Network has its programming launch. Bbmaniac (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Bbmaniac. You know as well as I that much of the up coming "information" will be purely speculation and rumor. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a means for relaying rumor and speculation. Yes only after an edit war was the page brought up to "code" otherwise it did infact include information from unverifiable and unreliable sources and that will only continue as Big Brother 2012 picks up steam. As of right now there is very little information contained within the article and there isn't going to be much in the coming months which is deserving of inclusion in this article. Just because a source like News.com.au (which is normally a reliable source) does not make them reputable and certainly is not grounds for inclusion in the article. As I said before there is simply TOO MUCH grey area right now for this article to stand on it's own and its main purpose at this time is to act as a haven for unreliable information. Big Brother is likely to air in August of next year which is 9 months away it is still far too soon for this article to be as it is now. Jschro (talk) 23:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the upcoming information I am talking about will be from Nine Network's (the network in which Big Brother Australia 2012 will be airing on) 2012 Programming Launch to be held on November 23. Any information acquired from this will be as true and reliable as news can be coming direct from the source. The page has been cleaned up of rumour and speculation, as what is usually the case on Wikipedia. Anyone can go on any page dedicated to events that lie further into the future than Big Brother Australia 2012 (and yes, these pages do exist) and start rumours and speculation. Should these pages be deleted too? For as much speculation and as many rumours that will circulate over the next months, there will be ample verifiable news filtering through as well, so the page will grow. The votes below already verify that people value this page for its information (which at the present moment is all verifiable) and I just cannot see where the reason is to delete it. Bbmaniac (talk) 02:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Delete - Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. When the show actually starts in Australia then it will get an article, as Big Brother is an extremely notable reality show. --Madison-chan (talk) 23:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep as a confirmed upcoming season of a notable television show, set to begin airing within the next few months. A "Big Brother 2013" or "Big Brother 2014" would be far enough out to run afoul of WP:CRYSTAL, but this is not the case here. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Since the future show is receiving substantial media coverage now of a nature indicating that "the event is notable and almost certain to take place", the article doesn't violate WP:CRYSTAL. Alessandra Napolitano (talk) 01:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

• Changing my vote to Keep now that the show has been confirmed and has received coverage in reliable sources. --Madison-chan (talk) 01:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep - At first I thought this was a joke; but no, this is serious. I'll be serious, and say keep. This article not only has substantial coverage from reliable sources, but isn't in violation of Crystal as per above comments. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 05:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Five sources from major Australian newspapers saying it's coming back; that's good enough for me. It's about as firm a go as you can get barring a complete and sudden change of management at Nine in the next few days. Nate • (chatter) 09:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes but that's really the ONLY information there will be for a while that isn't either rumor or Speculation. Please review Crystal thoroughly before you cast your vote. Had you read WP:CRYSTAL you'd clearly understand why this has been nominated for deletion. Jschro (talk) 19:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't need to read CRYSTAL at all. If it was just solely rubbish sites like tabloids, gossip and reality sites, and whatever the local equivalent of Perez Hilton is down under, then yes, I'd definitely consider CRYSTAL. At this point though we have the national media backing it up boisterously. It's also very pointless to go through an AFD discussion if the article will come back anyway only hours after deletion when Nine does officially announce it. It's not hurting the site to keep this, as the sources are downright pristine compared to the usual reality show comeback articles. Also, why would you announce a show without a cast or basic production structure? The network and production company are doing exactly what should be done before a pickup is announced; have the cast and setting ready from well before announcement day to premiere. Nate • (chatter) 07:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Taken directly from WP:CRYSTAL "short articles that consist only of product announcement information are not appropriate." In this case Reality Show and "Product are the same thing and right now aside from a few other bits of speculation the article is nothing more than a "Product Announcement". Any information that is going to possibly be released "soon" will not go into any great amount of detail and therefore would only be considered as part of the "Announcement" phase. "Until such time that more "ENCYCLOPEDIC KNOWLEDGE" about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable." The key word being "UNTIL" so in other words "AFTER THE FACT" As a long time fan I can assure all of you that despite Nine's upcoming 2012 Schedule launch in a weeks time there will be very little verifiable facts released until at the very least 1 or 2 months prior to the actual launch of the show. This is the most important piece of information I can pass along to all of you and one that you all need to pay the most attention to and use in consideration when you are voting is "Speculation and rumor, even from RELIABLE SOURCES, are NOT APPROPRIATE encyclopedic content." Please don't think this discussion is over just yet people. I suggest you start looking beyond the surface on this one. This is clearly a WP:CRYSTAL matter. Jschro (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I've highlighted key terms because I feel many of you need to review or seek clarification on their true definition because you clearly don't understand them.Jschro (talk) 19:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

These people do understand what 'crystal balling' is. This article does not 'crystal ball' anything. Everything on the page is sourced with great verifiability, is not rumour and is a little more than just an 'announcement'. Here we have information on format and Southern Star's marketing of the show and its casting stage. But of course you would say 'we don't understand them', because as it usually goes with one unhappy editor (and in this case, it is literally only ONE of you), the fact that this page means more to people than just 'announcements' just isn't getting through.

In this instance, I point you to this very straight forward rule: WP:IAR which clearly states 'If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.', so even though it is without any doubt this page has no crystal balling going on; I would even still choose to ignore the rule legally under the basis that it is bringing people's fascination to the site and it educating them on information that, as I've stated numerously, IS VERIFIABLE- hence improving Wikipedia's knowledge base on the topic of Big Brother Australia. Bbmaniac (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep: Per WP:GNG and the show being confirmed. Sources are reliable and there is media coverage. --LauraHale (talk) 00:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

• I want to change my vote to Speedy Keep as per WP:SNOW. This discussion proves nothing more that this deletion nomination hasn't a Snowball's chance in hell at passing through to deletion. This tag is technically pointless and should be removed immediately. Bbmaniac (talk) 01:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Proves yet again that you haven't a clue what you are talking about and are completely missing the point. I have a great idea of what WP:CRYSTAL is and this is a text book case of it. There is little information in the article at this time and does NOT warrant it's own article. BBmaniac you have an obvious bias here. Again "short articles that consist only of product announcement information are not appropriate."' end of story. As I said before BBmaniac this conversation is FAR from over. Jschro (talk) 02:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I actually want to move for wp:SPEEDY because this conversation is going nowhere. The Article and it's sources are really nothing more than promotional at this time. WP;CRYSTAL states that pages that are nothing more than product announcements (which is all that this article IS or is going to be for sometime) are grounds for deletion. There are too many people commenting here that haven't a clue what they are talking about and clearly MUST be deleted.Jschro (talk) 02:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

No, actually I just changed my vote from 'Keep' to 'Speedy Keep' which doesn't prove that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about; it solidifies by stance on the topic. This discussion is going no where? Clearly it is; and it is in the direction to keep. We've explained why your WP:CRYSTAL claim is nonsensical and you repeating it over and over is the only reason why any further discussion on that topic is pointless.Bbmaniac (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

• Snow keep - "crystal" doesn't apply because "the event is notable and almost certain to take place", and "snow" does apply because "an issue is run through some process and the resulting decision is unanimous" or almost so. TV productions of even reality shows cost tens of thousands of dollars, and in a circular group reasoning, once things like dates, the hiring of crew, etc., have been set, nowadays they almost always go forward. The citations to the material facts are well-referenced. Bearian (talk) 20:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Delete rumor, speculation and hype generated by non-independent parties does not amount to notability. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Stuart, can you clarify which part or parts of the article in question is 'rumour, speculation and hype'? All information contained in the page is verifiable and confirmed information from respected sources. Bbmaniac (talk) 09:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Bbmaniac check your emotional attachment to this article at the door. The articles creator SHOULD NOT be involved in this debate. Over the next YEAR (yes BB will NOT air for close to a YEAR from now!) this page will be a haven for vandals and unverified rumors. There is very little information within the article in its current form BUT over the coming year WILL and HAS been subject to the items Stuart talks about. Clearly you feel the fact that an article YOU created is marked for deletion is a personal attack on you and any response from you on the subject is purely emotional. This is not helpful in any way. It is still very clear that this article should be merged with the larger Big Brother Australia article until there is more verifiable and factual information. We are not questioning whether the series will happen or not but that there will be little information released for sometime the series to warrant it's own article at this time. Please stop spreading your uneducated emotional nonsense in this discussion. 142.110.227.191 (talk) 09:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

"Uneducated emotional nonsense" - Do I see a Personal attack? I think someone should assume good faith when dealing with other editors, and discuss civily with them. And Bbmaniac can be involved in this debate, regardless of what fictional policy you pulled "The articles creator SHOULD NOT be involved in this debate" from. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 10:03, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to spend too much time deliberating on this issue as it isn't relevant to the discussion, but as the articles creator, I have the utmost right to be apart of this conversation. The emotional attachment you speak of is an unprovoked attack on myself. I do not feel as if this deletion tag is a 'personal attack' in any way and I applaud it coming to light due to the discussion it has raised. I do not write with emotional bias, I simply state facts when I see them. I have simply rebutted Stuart's opposition to the article, which I am free to do so. I accept his position, however I am well within my rights to discuss with him his points. I never said this was a discussion as to whether or not the series will go ahead, I know this series is going ahead. This discussion IS about whether this page fouls WP:CRYSTAL which, in my opinion, it does not. This is the only way I have defended this article, I have written nothing about whether the show has been confirmed or not. While I will take your thoughts on me being 'emotional' as petty, I will say that I have gone about this discussion with full knowledge on Wikipedian regulations, so do not call me uneducated. Not to make this sound like a personal attack on you or anything, but you have written on behalf of someone else's comment, under an anonymous guest signature, added little to this discussion and launched a personal attack on me. Excuse me if I and the rest of the community ignore your comments in future. Bbmaniac (talk) 10:42, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok could someone explain how as the article sits right now is really any different that a product announcement? Also what significant pieces of information you believe will be released in the immediate future? If current rumors are true there is still approximately 8 months until the show is launched. Historically the bulk of information is released no earlier than a month or a few weeks before the show is launched and I don't anticipate this to change. I also don't anticipate there will be a significant amount of information to be released at Nine's program launch next week aside from a solid confirmation that the show will return. Can you not at least see some benefit to merging with the Larger Big Brother article for the time being? Jschro (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)