Talk:Cotter family

Cousins

Hi Cotters. You may not be aware of it but you actually have distant cousins relatively nearby, and they are Gaelic aristocrats no less. Have a look at O'Donovan#Norse period and then maybe visit Lough Cluhir and see if you catch Ímar Ua Donnabáin on the deck of his enchanted ship. Knowing Ireland's pressures I am sure the O'Donovans were completely unaware of your existence until I put you in our article, and you were completely unaware of our existence until this moment. I myself discovered you by accident in this wonderful little book I recently received, where you are the only family of Norse extraction covered. The Coppingers and Skiddys would appear to be nearly extinct. I don't know a great deal about the other Norse-Gaelic families of Ireland but I know there is some debate about the origins of the Doyles and Reynolds. Yours is the only one I have ever come across proof for, besides ours. We got ourselves into a great deal of trouble for bringing in too many Nordic girls, and the only Irish who ever cared for us afterwards were the MacCarthy Reaghs, bless them. Thanks to the O'Briens everyone else hates us or at the very least feels some disdain, if they even know we exist. Now the main family are considered too English by some and so we apparently can't do anything right. We are an utter failure, but you are an Óttar success! DinDraithou (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Let me rephrase a little of that. I was completely unaware of your Norseness, not of your actual existence or Gaelicness. I own a fine piece of scholarship, incidentally, by one Paul MacCotter, whose work is now everywhere, for example in trícha cét. It is Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions. Dublin: Four Courts Press. 2008. It is an invaluable resource for the political structure and little kingdoms all over the island, but he fails to mention his own family even once, anywhere, although he covers Imokilly, where Ó Murchadha states they first settled. Thus I conclude the Cotters are partly failing at self promotion.

I have brought you to the attention of one of our cousins in Scotland, who is a bit of an expert. See User_talk:Brianann_MacAmhlaidh#Cotters. He has already found a Cotter, one Murdo MacCotter, fighting abroad in Scotland in the 1400s. This is very important, being early evidence of both warlike quality and "foreign" connections. Once it's ready we'll add it to this article. DinDraithou (talk) 21:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Earl Ottir

I'm fairly confident I've found someone you can claim as your ancestor, and he's famous. What's funny is that anyone could have done it and it was bound to happen eventually. That Ó Murchadha missed it is surprising because the Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib is a famous work, and though unreliable in places I see no reason to doubt the relevant passage concerning Ottir and Cork. In fact for all we know there is a book out there making the proper claim. This was too easy.

If you are in fact descended from this person in any way then it is fairly incredible. DinDraithou (talk) 19:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Óttar svarti

So now we have at least two Óttar the Blacks. What this reminds me of is the habit of many Irish dynasties. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the south of Ireland first the MacCarthys,[1][2] and later the O'Sullivans,[3][4] and also the O'Donovans,[5], became obsessed with the name Domhnall or Donal and it is difficult and sometimes impossible to tell these dynasts apart. Most were given epithets but these are not always helpful. The MacCarthys went even further by sometimes repeating their epithets and so we have examples like Cormac Laidir or "Cormac the Strong" and Cormac Laidir Oge or "Cormac the Strong the Younger". The O'Donovans themselves developed the further interesting habit of often not using their given names at all and simply calling themselves "O'Donovan". Which one?

It looks to me like the Óttars were ahead of their time. I wonder, did they start the whole great trend?! DinDraithou (talk) 16:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Relations of the 4th Baronet

The 4th Baronet's mother was Helena Tryndall Lombard, whose mother Ann Becher was a daughter of Mary O'Donovan, a descendant of Donal IV O'Donovan, ancestor also of Edmond Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy and his noble descendants. Thus the present baronets are now cousins to the Spencers and the British Royal Family, as well as having been for some generations cousins to the Chiefs of the Name of the O'Donovan family. I find also the Wrixon-Becher Baronets,[6] and through the prolific Bechers and others there are surely plenty more notables to be found. DinDraithou (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Óttarson

"The name of the family in Scandinavia would have eventually become, undoubtedly, Óttarsson."

I suggest to delete this passage as it is quite simply wrong. The Scandinavian -son names are pure patronyms (at least when, as in this case, they are given in Old Norse. There are some modern East Scandinavian names ending in -son that have ossified into classical surnames).

Only the direct male descendant of Jarl Òttar (i.e. his son) would have been called "Óttarson". There are dynasty-names (i.e. Völsungar, Ynglingar...) in Old Norse sources but they are formed differently. And these dynasties are usually only mentioned in a (semi-)mythological context. It is doubtful that the descendants of a jarl would assume such a name.

Matt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.52.18.196 (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Since nobody has answered yet I deleted the passage.

Matt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.52.18.196 (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree.  — Breadbasket 20:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I see someone has changed it back. Now I am no Wikipedian and I have no way to prove this but I am a scholar of medieval Scandinavian and I can tell you that there is no way the name would have become Óttarson. It seems that for some reason a member of the family would like to believe it would but it is simply not true. I will change it back now and I ask someone with a better knowledge of Wikipedia rules to tell me what I can do that it stays that way. Matt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.230.239.23 (talk) 09:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

In case you don't believe me, please read the article on Scandinavian family name etymology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_family_name_etymology It clearly states that early Scandinavian "surnames" were patronyms.

Matt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.230.239.23 (talk) 10:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC)