Wikipedia talk:High-risk templates

Protection

First, this sounds like an excellent idea. And second, this page could easily be read as a vandal's guide to DOS'ing Wikipedia. Hence, I've preemptively protected all templates with over 5000 uses, and all metas with over 100 uses. Note that at least half of those were protected already, generally for precisely the reason that they were heavily in use. I do believe that any relevant changes to those templates can be discussed on the talk pages for the time being, as they should be. Radiant_>|< 00:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed that these should be protected. When do we start voting? — Omegatron 02:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Umm. What? Why on Earth would we need to vote? Eurgh.

I'd say that this is so eminently sensible that we can consider it essentially policy already; certainly, if consensus discussion here remains in favour of such protection...

James F. (talk) 07:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this is a good idea. Just need to make sure that this list gets updated periodically, since the list of templates that could be considered "high risk" will change over time. Triona 08:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I strongly oppose protection. This implies that the community is not trustworthy. --Ixfd64 20:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• No, it implies that the world as a whole cannot be trusted not to want to DOS us. Which has been proven by precedent. Radiant_>|< 20:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Can someone unprotect Template:Album? It's edited frequently by participants of WP:ALBUMS. —Slicing (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

There needs to be some easy way of getting some of these temporarily unprotected. For instance, there is currently a big hubub about 'meta-templates' and the need to rewrite them... which in many cases can't actually be done by most users because they are protected. Maybe some process where a replacement template can be drawn up and copied in by an admin. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 17:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• 1.Discuss on the talk page, 2.Ask your friendly neighborhood admin, or 3.WP:RPP. The whole point is that these templates are heavily in use and shouldn't be edited frivolously, so (1) should be best. Radiant_>|< 23:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

---

Which has been proven by precedent.

{{albumcover}} [1] has never been vandalized, and the template's ubiquity means any such effort would be reverted in a New York nanosecond. None of its siblings ({{dvdcover}}, {{bookcover}} &c.) are protected, and, again, none have ever been vandalized. Could you explain how this overprotection squares with Wikipedia:Assume good faith or the message inscribed in large friendly letters on Wikipedia's cover: "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit"?

chocolateboy 00:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Visibility

The definition of whether a template is high-risk or not should include not only how often it's used but also its visibility. A template used on articles (like {{ref}} or {{note}}) is much more visible than one used mostly on image description pages. --cesarb 00:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

True, because visibility determines how quickly the touched pages will be regenerated, and thus how large/immediate the impact of an edit will be on the hardware. --bainer (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a hitlist

I find this page fascinating more because it is a convenient hitlist of meta-templates which should be discontinued AND templates that should be subst'd. -- Netoholic @ 02:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

OH NOES!!!1! ;-)

Will you just be removing meta-templates as fast as you get to them, or is there some particular date on which everything remaining will get killed with a stick? —Kirill Lokshin 14:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

You obviously don't understand the purpose of templates if you're suggesting these all should be subst'd. —Locke Cole 13:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Semi-protection?

I know the policy for semi-protection indicates it should only be used temporarily, but given that all of these templates are suddenly getting protected (meaning a majority of users won't be able to modify them without an admins help, which is utterly un-Wiki), I think semi-protection is a much better permanent solution than full protection. —Locke Cole 13:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How about turning on semi-protection for the entire Template: namespace? :D -- Netoholic @ 09:06, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

That'd work. :P —Locke Cole 09:12, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

As unlikely as it sounds, I agree with Netoholic on this. I would support semi-protection for all templates and full protection for all meta-templates. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 09:17, Dec. 25, 2005

I strongly agree with Netoholic on this. Nice idea. Matt Yeager 05:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Meta-template list is misleading

Meta-templates don't need any kind of protection unless the templates that use them are used in a significant number of articles. More importantly, this list seems to have a lot of false positives because it counts "see also" links in the same way as inclusions. -- Beland 08:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

request to protect

I hereby recommend protecting or at least semi-protecting template:S-bef and template:S-aft. 14'000+ articles depend on them. They make a fine vandal vector. Adrian Buehlmann 12:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Done.--Patrick 14:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Adrian Buehlmann 21:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I added them to Wikipedia:Protected page (diff). Adrian Buehlmann 21:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

template:book reference is protected but template:wikilink (used in book reference) is not. Adrian Buehlmann 10:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

• Done, and this message copy/pasted to WP:RPP. Radiant_>|< 22:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

suggested merge

Radiant! proposes in this edit to merge this project page with Wikipedia:Protection policy or Wikipedia:Templates. I would agree to merge this into Wikipedia:Protection policy if that long statistic were not here. Is this statistic really needed? If yes, can it be kept up to date anyway? I fear no, so it would possible be better to remove that list anyway, which would then make the merge into Wikipedia:Protection policy fit nicely. Adrian Buehlmann

It's a bit useless without the statistics, though—how will we know what needs to be protected? —Kirill Lokshin 18:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Using the "What links here" I propose? "What links here" lists all articles that depend directly or indirectly on a template — as I understand it. Click on 500. If there are more than 500 articles directly or indirectly depending on a template, then that would probably make that template a good candidate for a protect. Adrian Buehlmann 19:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

But that would require using Special:Allpages over the template namespace, wouldn't it? The problem isn't in determining whether a given template is highly used, but in finding all such templates by hand. —Kirill Lokshin 19:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Mmm. I have nothing against that statistic. Just thought that adding that long thing into Wikipedia:Protection policy might be a bit a misfit. You are right that finding the high-used templates is not that simple and as such this table adds value. But interestingly the lemma of that section says "This is also before {{if}} et al really took off, so they are under-represented in this count" :-). So that statistic actually already is out of date, because qif is the most used now (32'000+ articles at my last count on What Links Here). What about moving only that statistic out to a separate page and put the rest into Wikipedia:Protection policy? Adrian Buehlmann 20:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

That would work; maybe a separate Wikipedia:List of templates by usage? —Kirill Lokshin 21:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Question: where should we put requests to protect an unprotected high-use template? (See also [2]). Adrian Buehlmann 10:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

• WP:RPP comes to mind. Radiant_>|< 11:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have done that and it was largely ignored for days. I then got more and more explicit but nowbody took notice. Then I thought I removed that vandal invitation ("hello come here this template is a vandal vector"). I had done this after having contacted an admin by wiki-email to protect a template. He asked me to use WP:RPP in the future. Which I then did. This whole protection stuff just fits badly with the normal wiki going and people do not understand it. I have still such a template which is not protected on which I simply gave up. Adrian Buehlmann 21:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• Ah. I forgot it's still there :). See next thread above. Adrian Buehlmann 21:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oh for the love of Jimbo... ok, Wikilink protected. Got any others? Radiant_>|< 22:22, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Not ATM. Thanks! Can I send you a wiki-mail next time or should I post here? Adrian Buehlmann 23:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

When I added the proposal, I specifically left out any test or rule to determine which templates are high-risk and ought to be protected. I included the statistics to possibly illustrate which templates might be risky. If people think that a one-by-one approach is best, then this page can be merged into WP:PP, no problems. But if having lists like these might be useful, then a separate page might also be useful. This would be to define "high-risk", in the same way that there is a separate page to define "vandalism". Also, the statistics can be updated by anyone with query access, or anyone with a more recent dump on a local wiki. --bainer (talk) 08:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• I extracted the section "Statistics" into a new page at Wikipedia:List of templates by usage as per the discussion above. --Adrian Buehlmann 10:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we shouldn't merge this to any other project page for now. Wikipedia:Protection policy is a policy and this project page here is now a guideline, which is a good thing. Guidelines should not be merged into a policy. Wikipedia:Templates redirecs to Wikipedia:Template messages which fits badly either to receive this here. So leave it where it is. --Adrian Buehlmann 10:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• I'd agree with not merging, as long as all relevant pages (WP:PPOL, WP:RPP and WP:PP) clearly state that preemptively protecting a high-risk template is generally a good idea. Radiant_>|< 21:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• Full support for your as "long as" clause. --Adrian Buehlmann 21:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Faulty Basis?

According to Brion Vibber the primary stated rationale for this guideline is inherently false... these widely used templates do not place Wikipedia in 'signifcant risk' of heavy server load or 'denial of service' attacks. As such, I'd suggest that this page should be mothballed and many of these templates unprotected. Some could still be protected due to 'visibility' concerns, but the supposed dangers to the servers apparently do not exist.

For those who dispute Brion's claims... I say let's test it. Take the top ten templates (or whatever) on the list, edit them, and then revert them right back. If the statements on this page are true that should cause a massive surge in server load which will make Wikipedia unusable for some period of time. If the lead developer is correct then nothing significant will happen. This would be along the same lines as the 'breaching experiments' with deliberate vandalism to test how quickly it would be reverted. Any potential risks could be mitigated by performing the test during a lower usage time of day (e.g. 5am EST on Sunday) and/or having a developer standing by. I've seen a few of these 'high risk' templates edited without any noticable effect, so I feel confident that Brion is correct... but let's settle the matter once and for all. Find out whether this is a serious issue or not. If there is an issue then I'm all for protecting the servers. However, if there really isn't then I'm for removing unneccessary restrictions. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 19:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone needs to test anything. I think we should set a fairly high threshold for protection and see how it goes from there. Something on the order of 5000 usages would work for me, since that is fairly easy to check with Whatlinkshere, since that's the maximum you can see on one page. -- Netoholic @ 20:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from doing tests. We just get some more bad reputation. Last time when snow blanked good'ole {{if}} he complained that the database was locked briefly (but who said he should change it?). At least please keep the conditionals and booleans protected until we have them replaced by MediaWiki functions (and yes Neto, I know you hate them). --Adrian Buehlmann 20:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Hrrrmmm... if we don't test it then this is all just so much smoke and mirrors. Protect at 5,000 transclusions thresh-hold? Why not 50? Or 500,000? It is a totally arbitrary limit. If the servers can take edits to pages which are transcluded into 4,999 others then I have to think that this is pretty much a non-issue even for the few templates larger than that. As to 'if' having 'locked the database'... how long is 'briefly'? Five seconds? I could live with that. Could a brief lag not have been something else entirely? I get them all the time. People keep arguing about this issue... there are edit wars on numerous pages... nasty comments... hurt feelings... and it is all phantoms. Let's get some facts on which to make reasoned decisions. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 20:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Such tests are usually not done on a live system. If you want to do that, do your tests on a test system and measure there. And we are definitely not the ones that should do such tests. If at all the devs can do that. I think the devs have bigger problems than our ridiculous AUM fight. Brion already said that we should not care about server load caused by templates. If we start testing Brions statements he will probably apply technical mesaures to stop us. --Adrian Buehlmann 20:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Fun mode: This reminds me of a somewhat tragic story in a local bar in my area (I hope I get this right, sorry for my bad English): An official fire inspector visited said bar and complained about the fire safety of the decoration. The bar owner said that there isn't any problem and took out his lighter to demonstrate it. The bar burned to ashes. Q.E.D. (This is a true story). --Adrian Buehlmann 21:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As Brion said - forget about server load concerns. He wants to own that issue, all we should do is report problems. Let's focus WP:HRT by balancing the impact of vandalism vs. the frequency that the template actually needs to be changed. Taking a look at the list on Wikipedia:List of templates by usage (which is out-of-date), the "5000" threshold seems a reasonable first cut. It represents only a couple dozen templates which don't need frequent updates. We can add and remove on a case-by-case basis after discussing. -- Netoholic @ 21:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm shure I'm shooting myself in my book ref foot: but I agree with Neto on this. --Adrian Buehlmann 21:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

• CBD - IIRC the "brief database lock" was related to us by a dev. At any rate, the issue isn't really server load; the main issue is that (1) if something weird happens to a template, the average editor doesn't know how to fix it; (2) if frequently-used templates are frequently changed, that's bad for consistency (and yes, this does happen); and (3) just because we haven't had a "template vandal" yet... so some kind of preemptive protection is useful. 5000 is arbitrary but sounds reasonable. >Radiant< 01:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The 'non server load' issues you mention are reasonable concerns for some of the extremely widely transcluded templates, but note that the project page currently focuses primarily on 'server load'. Since those concerns have been downgraded (Brion says they will be handled on the developer side when/if they become significant) we should probably update the stated reasons for permanently protecting some templates. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 01:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not that confident that we even need this page anymore, in light of Brion's assertions. If we go with a "5000" threshold, let's just add a paragraph to the main protection policy explaining the rationale. -- Netoholic @ 01:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:Album

Looks like an apparently accidental edit to this template causes the most recent outage. I've preemptively protected it as a high-risk template. --cesarb 22:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

More detail: if I understood the conversations on #wikipedia-tech correctly, the cause was that changing the template to remove the image caused the problem while updating the file links for the image. --cesarb 23:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

question

Are there any frequently-used templates that aren't protected? Which ones are they? --128.192.246.198 21:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)