Talk:Luminaria

Nice article so far

This is a good short article. It can be expanded, IMHO, with more Free pictures. The Albuquerque Old Town gazebo and plaza are always encircled with luminarias, and many local businesses put the artificial variety on the roof along the edge.

There are varying local vocal traditions. My father always says faralitos are the little bags with candles, and luminaria describes a sort of open-sided brazier in which a wood fire is kept burning, despite luminaria being used for both.

Some people say the luminarias guide the spirit of the Christ child; others say they guide the shepherds to the Christ child, and others say they guide the wise men.

The previous two paragraphs are "original research" in that I've personally heard others say these things, but haven't doen enough actual research to verify it. --BlueNight (talk) 07:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (January 2010)

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The result of the move request was pages moved per request. GTBacchus^(talk) 23:41, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

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Luminaria (disambiguation) → Luminaria — The word "luminaria" is ambiguous, and the topic now at Luminaria is known also as "farolito". Una Smith (talk) 04:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

• Luminaria → Farolito

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:The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I have proposed moving this article to Farolito, over a redirect to this article. Please see Talk:Luminaria (disambiguation). --Una Smith (talk) 04:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Luminaria (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 05:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

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Requested move (July 2010)

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The result of the move request was: page moved. Yes it was moved back, but then neither discussion had much input. This move was made more difficult by the fact that copy and paste edits were made to undo previous moves. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

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Farolito → Luminaria — Farolitos and Luminarias are the same thing. Previous move discuss went way too quickly and name should never have been changed. Please correct the error. For reference, please see: ca::Lluminàries and it:Luminaria and es:Luminaria. Newport Backbay (talk) 03:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

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Requested move (October 2010)

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The result of the move request was: not moved Peter Karlsen (talk) 03:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

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Luminaria → Farolitos — People keep saying that farolitios are the same as luminarias, but that is INCORRECT. I am Hispanic from northern New Mexico. It is offensive and insulting when anglos come into wiki and say that farolitos are the same as luminarias. I think I know more about my own culture than they do. User:Puro spana 08:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Could you please cite a source for that in the article for the benefit us gringos? D O N D E groovily Talk to me 13:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment

I will find something, but unfortunately I will not be back home for a couple weeks, where all my books are. I could easily ask you to cite a valid source that states that farolitos and luminarias are the same. The sources in the article cite the uses of farolitos, but they do not cite their origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puro spana (talk • contribs) 03:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. In looking over the edit history, it appears that this is one editor who does not believe that this is the common name since the vigil fire shares the name. If you dig, it appears that from usage this may well be the primary use. The vigil fire has it's article at luminaria (vigil fire). If it can be shown that this is not the primary use, then this article should be disambiguated rather then changing to something that does not appear to be the common name. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I dont completely understand what Vegaswikian is saying. Luminaria (vigil fire) does not share the same name as farolito. They are two completely different things. The sources on this page only cite where the farolitos, or luminarias, are used. They do not cite their origins. Just because everybody says that an orange is an apple, that does not mean it is really an apple. This is the exact same thing. People mistakenly call farolitos luminarias. Just because everyone mistakenly calls them that, it doesnt mean that they are right. The whole point of me wanting to change the name of the article is so people get it right. As I said in my previous comment, it is offensive when people come into wiki and act as if the know more about my own culture than I do. It is hard to cite a culture's traditions. As I said, just because everyone mistakenly calls them luminarias, it does not mean it is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puro spana (talk • contribs) 23:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

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Luminaria vs. Farolito

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The result of the move request was: not moved Newport Backbay (talk) 05:10, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

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This is a discussion that has generated much heat over the years and is probably unresolvable. I grew up in northern New Mexico (not far from Santa Fe) in the 1960's and 1970's and we used farolitos to mean the lanterns. A luminaria was more of a small wood fire sort of thing. To us, it was an important distinction. However, anyone who watched TV in those days knew that there were some people to the south of us (meaning Albuquerque) who referred to the lanterns as luminarias. Which is correct? Either could be true depending upon where you grew up. For me, at least, the lanterns shall always be farolitos and not called luminarias. But I accept the fact that others feel differently. -- Jdthayer (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

So why not merge content about luminaria (= farolito) into paper lantern? There are already at least 3 flaming things on Wikipedia called luminaria. 67.100.204.219 (talk) 02:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - Luminarias aka farolitos are a NM tradition, distinct from the various paper lanterns worldwide. I propose that in this way they should have a unique entry, linked to the paper lantern article. Talisyn (talk) 15:30, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I would suggest expanding this article. Newport Backbay (talk) 05:10, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

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Naming controversy section

The addition of the naming controversy section, well-researched, is a major step forward. It preserved the fact that there's a dispute about the name, kept the same source that was already there about the matter, presented the debate in a neutral manner instead of browbeating readers with a personal opinion, also added more sources, while even removing blatant original research, such as assertions that one side of the debate are engaging in logical fallacies. So that's four solid policy-based reasons to retain this version. I'm not seeing any rationale at all for Puro Spana revert back to the questionable version. Perhaps he can offer one? The edit summary "the fact is a luminaria is not a farolito. this version has a source citing this FACT. no sources proving otherwise have been provided" consists of an assertion of personal belief, a claim that a source was in his version but not Camerafiend's (which isn't true - Camerafiend used the same source, among others), and an assertion that no one has proven the opposite case, but it isn't Wikipedia's job to "prove" anything only to accurately reflect, in a balanced manner, what reliable sources say. Ergo, I have undone Puro Spana's revert. NB: I happen to be from New Mexico, and happen to have lived in places where both terms are used, and really WP:DGAF what term people use, and have no stake in the debate, only in having an verifiable, neutral article and less strife. Puro, I believe that the Camerafiend text makes it perfectly plain that some people strongly feel that one name is correct and not the other. That's what we need to convey, not that Wikipedia itself has an opinion on the matter, and that's what you've been putting into the lead. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 03:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That said, I don't see any reason that an RfC couldn't be opened on the naming issue. It might make more sense if Luminaria (vigil fire) were at Luminaria, and this article on the decorations was moved to Farolito (though I think that word also has other meanings in other Latino areas), with a disambiguation hatnote at the top of the vigil fire article. I'm all for systemic bias being kept in check, and respecting cultural origins of pop-culture items like farolitos in the modern American Southwest, and keeping them distinct from religious matters. But you have to also understand that English borrows words all the time and changes their meaning in English. Luminaria in reference to vigil fires is Spanish, not English. The loanword "luminaria" in English almost always refers to farolitos, except in the context of area Catholics who speak English as well as Spanish. I think some people might thus argue for not moving the articles around. A WP:RFC is probably the best option. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 03:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks SMcCandlish for your eloquent defense of my edit; I was going to make a similar argument here but you beat me to it. I also agree that an RfC isn't a bad idea, it would be nice to have some kind of consensus (hopefully) to point to in the future. I personally have no preference regarding the article title and will be content with whatever the community decides. Camerafiend (talk) 04:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't see this had been reverted again. The cited source doesn't "prove" that farolitos cannot be called "luminarias." The author describes the historical origin of both terms to make the case that the terms should be kept separate. That's one point of view, but it isn't the only one. It isn't Wikipedia's job to prescribe which word should be used. Camerafiend (talk) 04:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I undid the revert. Puro Spana, you need to stop editwarring about this. See WP:RFC for instructions on how start one. I for one would probably support moving the articles around to less culturally debatable names. But pushing a angry point of view in this article in the interim is not going to help your cause. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 05:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I am actually very pleased with the current status of the article. Thank you SMcCandlish. Puro spana (talk) 07:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Elsewhere in the USA

As a reader not from the American southwest, this is an odd article to read. The article seems to describe luminaria as a purely local custom, even though I've seen them at Christmas in many parts of the country. (I am willing to believe that the custom began in New Mexico, but I wouldn't have guessed it: they've always just felt like a neighborhood tradition in various places.) The article seems to imply that the term "farolito" is only common in northern New Mexico (I had certainly never heard it before), but the main body of the article uses that term exclusively and never says "luminaria" at all (despite the article's title). The article comments that Relay for Life holds farolito ceremonies, but a Google search for '"Relay for Life" farolito' turns up just 2000 hits (the first of which is this article) while a search for '"Relay for Life" luminaria' gives 1.3 million (the first of which is the official Relay for Life page on the ceremonies). Has anyone in Kirkwood, Missouri who lit lights in honor of their local tragedy ever even heard the term "farolito"?

I have no idea what the local traditions are in New Mexico, or what the true history might be, but as far as I have seen the term "luminaria" is the standard one pretty much throughout the USA. Is it reasonable that a primarily regional dispute over naming traditions (and from the sound of it, a small region at that) should lead to an article that could be confusing to the vast majority of people who use the more common term?--Steuard (talk) 01:31, 25 December 2012 (UTC)