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Quality issue of The Simpsons

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Full of original research, cites numerous non-reliable sources (many instances of message board posters and personal blogs), has no chance of ever being reliably sourced. The subject is also of questionable notability and is handled in it's appropriate context with much better sourcing within The Simpsons article. MichiganCharms (talk) 19:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Despite being a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject The Simpsons, I have to agree with this. The whole "Simpsons starting to suck after the ninth season"-thing can be adequately summarized in four paragraphs or so. It is already covered here, here, and here. Theleftorium ^(talk) 00:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I can see that several people have given an article-length treatment of this topic the old college try, and I commend them for the effort. However, (a) this is a hodgepodge of original research, weasel words, and the use of forum posts and blogs as sources, (b) any full-length treatment of this topic is impossible to accomplish in an encyclopedic manner, and (c) the subject matter of the show's alleged decline or non-decline is covered more than adequately in the featured article The Simpsons. Here's the gist of this topic: Some people say The Simpsons has declined. Some say it hasn't. Both sides of the debate have various arguments about what's wrong with the show or what's not wrong with it, and why that is. Some of those viewpoints come from notable published commentators, but most come from fan forums and blogs. One more point: All TV series that run more than one season have some fans who disagree with the show's direction. So you could just as well have an article like "Quality issue of Doctor Who" or "Quality issue of How I Met Your Mother", right? szyslak (t) 01:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I think this is a very well-documented topic, and as I have already said in various forums, one which has dominated the public discourse surrounding The Simpsons for the past 15 years or so. In regard to Syzlak's point, "So you could just as well have an article like "Quality issue of Doctor Who" or "Quality issue of How I Met Your Mother", right?", well... short answer, yes. This seems to be a common thread that runs through many-a-series. Especially the longer-running ones. Maybe quality-issue of ___" was never the right title (I was always hesitant about that). While history articles are more about development and cancellations and promotions and releases etc., this brand of article would go into the history of the show's quality. Not about all the crap that happens around a show. Just the show itself. (But to be fair, at least in my experience, I havent found any issue regarding the quality dip in a show more talked about than this one). Just like there are many different American history articles - demographic, military, woman's, economic etc., these two articles would then show different 'sides' to the history of the shows, one the facade, and the other, the behind the scenes. By the way, I still think the article needs to be restructured to becoming wholly chronological. But I was too busy wrapping my head around the neutrality and notability of it that I haven't gotten around to completely fixing the scope and order of sections just yet. But, yeah, the topic seems sounds, and the notability is definitely there. If worst comes to worst, we can always salvage a lot of this information for a Critical reception of the Simpsons article, which was previously discussed somewhere.

MichiganCharms, what do you mean by "has no chance of ever being reliably sourced" (also, all the sources in this section in The Simpsons article were carries over to here so I'm not sure what you mean by that.)? I appreciate you bringing those articles to light. Many of those sources could be used to great affect here. I have to say that while the information is great, it doesn't really provide enough of a well-rounded analysis of the issues surrounding the dip in quality (which didn't just occur at a point in time which everything before being good and everything after being shit). I really see value in such an article as this, despite the idea still not being fully formed. Also, this isn't really a '"Simpsons starting to suck after the ninth season"-thing' thing at all. In fact, in the other articles, I think generalisations and simplifications have been used as the result of limited space. This article (at least should) comment on and analyse the dynamic shifts in the show, and how those have been percieved quality-wise, plus a series of (however dubious) defenses for the quality.--Coin945 (talk) 02:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Simply put, I don't believe that such an article can ever meet Wikipedia's standards because at it's very core it relies on a.) original research, b.) synthesis and c.) the use of non-reliable sources. Look, I've been a poster on NoHomers... I shudder to think my postings might ever be used as a source on what it supposed to be an encyclopedia. There is only so much ink that has been spilled by reliable, published sources on this topic and the subject, no matter how interesting or important you or I personally find it, only warrants as much coverage here as those sources allow for. Perhaps consider moving the article to user space or reworking it as a blogpost somewhere. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 10:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a hodgepodge of original, non-notable dead-horse beating, which is practically a poster child for "things that don't belong on Wikipedia." As noted above, everything that really needs to be noted on the topic can comfortably fit in a paragraph or so in the main Simpsons article. Commenting on and analysing the dynamic shifts in the show are original work. That may be fine for some other website. It has no place here. — Shmuel (talk) 03:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not sure how this is original research. I have made no conclusions without evidence. I have merely collected all the sources which discuss this topic together in the one place. Instances where I may have written assumptions go back to what I said on the talk page - this is work in progress and so sometimes I will read something that will remind me of something I read in a reliable source, or something that I think is true enough that there will be reliable sources on the notion further into my research (I make judgement calls on those ones) - and then I will temporarily add draft information to later be replaced by reliable source in due course. That doesn't mean that the sources don't exist. I think that on the whole, this is a very well sourced, comprehensive, and relatively neutral (I'll still try to work on that in the near future) article, on a very notable issue in regard to The Simpsons.--Coin945 (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Your own defenses of the article highlight one of the problems with it. "This article (at least should) comment on and analyse the dynamic shifts in the show, and how those have been percieved quality-wise, plus a series of (however dubious) defenses for the quality." "I have made no conclusions without evidence." Commentary, analysis, and the drawing of conclusions all go outside the boundaries of Wikipedia. One type of original research relevant here is called synthesis. I would suggest you read the guidelines for that. — Shmuel (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, by 'dubious', I didn't mean in unreliable sources. I meant however flawed the argument itself is (sorry I should have been clearer on that). For example, a lot of the show's staff may argue that the show is much better than it ever was (which I don't think they do, but it is a hypothetical after all), and even if it seems like a dubious argument, if it is widely held, and in many reliable sources, then it deserves a place in the article. Secondly, I never said I would be doing any of the analysing. All I have done is placed a bunch of other poeple's analysing into one place. Thirdly, there is no original research involved in this. I said "I have made no conclusions without evidence", in the context of: if i add 10 sources that say critics said the show was obsolete, in a variety of different ways, I am able to come to the conclusion that "Many critics say the show is now obsolete", or something like that. That's not original research. That's (as i said) drawing conclusions. The only thing I could be accused of is having a few less-than-totally-notable sources here and there, which is only natural for a draft article. It has a few flaws, I'm not denying that, and they are yet to be ironed out. I don't think outright deletion is the solution though.--Coin945 (talk) 06:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, I found this article by searching for letterboxd, a social networking site, and found it was being used as a source for this mess. I defer to User:Gene93k's familiarity with the adequate coverage of this topic in the main article and the History of ... article. I also feel that the title is clumsy and unworthy of redirecting anywhere. Abductive (reasoning) 06:08, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per above. I admire the effect, but this is not the kind of thing that belongs here. Gran² 22:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, essentially agree with Gran2 (talk · contribs), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I have been thinking a lot about the existence of this article and while I admire the effort, I don't think it belongs on Wikipedia. The best analogue I can think of, is that we don't have an article comparing Star Wars's original trilogy to the prequel trilogy - even though it is a wide spread phenomenon on the internet. Basically, the internet is filled with people complaining about everything. These days it is so easy to set up a blog and then your opinion would be there forever. Not surprisingly, people also had opinions in the 1990s, they are just not easy to see anymore. If you go on SNPP.com, you can see plenty of people from the 1990s complaining about the poor writing of episodes, people now call classic. The point is that it is almost impossible to find some sort of "truth", because it is a matter of opinion and all you can do is synthesise several people's opinions. I would much rather read about how The Simpsons shifted in tone and how the characters developed over the years. --Maitch (talk) 12:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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 *'''Delete''' - per above. I admire the effect, but this is not the kind of thing that belongs here. [[User:Gran2|Gran]]<sup>[[User talk:Gran2|2]]</sup> 22:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 *'''Delete''', essentially agree with {{user|Gran2}}, above. Cheers, &mdash; '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 21:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
+*'''Delete'''. I have been thinking a lot about the existence of this article and while I admire the effort, I don't think it belongs on Wikipedia. The best analogue I can think of, is that we don't have an article comparing Star Wars's original trilogy to the prequel trilogy - even though it is a wide spread phenomenon on the internet. Basically, the internet is filled with people complaining about everything. These days it is so easy to set up a blog and then your opinion would be there forever. Not surprisingly, people also had opinions in the 1990s, they are just not easy to see anymore. If you go on SNPP.com, you can see plenty of people from the 1990s complaining about the poor writing of episodes, people now call classic. The point is that it is almost impossible to find some sort of "truth", because it is a matter of opinion and all you can do is synthesise several people's opinions. I would much rather read about how ''The Simpsons'' shifted in tone and how the characters developed over the years. --[[User:Maitch|Maitch]] ([[User talk:Maitch|talk]]) 12:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC)