Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dave vonKleist: Difference between revisions

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Dave vonKleist

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After finding quite a bit of copyvio in this article from [1] I tried to find reliable sources to rewrite it. The only clearly reliable sources I found was a book at [2] which mentions him in connection with the documentary 911:In Plane Site but doesn't tell us very much about him. Seems to fail our notability criteria. Dougweller (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The claim of notability as a "radio show host, musician, author, activist and film producer" fails various guidelines set forth due to lack of coverage in reliable sources. I did find trivial mentions in two separate news reports,[3][4] a magazine, [5] and another book.[6] Various other mentions in fringe or non-reliable sources, including Coast to Coast AM.[7] I agree with the nom that there is not enough in reliable sources to form a reliably-sourced biographical article. Location (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:FRINGEBLP seems to indicate that we should remove this from the website. jps (talk) 23:36, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This is WP:FRINGEBLP and fails WP:GNG. --Jersey92 (talk) 02:54, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Looks like should be a snow delete. Fails any possible notability category. FRINGEBLP. - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, And this is another one that shouldn't be deleted. Highly Notable, Notable for his contribution to the 9/11 Truth movement. His ground breaking film 911: In Plane Site. And what about his profile as a talk show host. Massive profile. Numerous contributions , Too much to be ignored! Also a recognized and respected recording artist with four albums released. (Starman005 (talk) 05:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Comment, I wonder if I am now the target of Chief Censor Dougweller and have incurred his wrath for backing boss reality ? (Starman005 (talk) 06:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

There Is No Cabal - just a failure to understand the basic guidelines and policies that guide Wikipedia. WegianWarrior (talk) 07:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Such as WP:RS. I note that Starman005 has added this book[8] as a source. It's published by El Shaddai Publishers/Bed and Breakfast.[9] who writes "shortly to occur Second Coming. You will be convinced to cast off your complacency and your unpreparedness as you read of the coming worldwide disorder." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 10:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as non-notable - while prolific among the fringe, little to no mention in reliable sources. WP:FRINGEBLP, WP:GNG and WP:RS is relevant here. WegianWarrior (talk) 07:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have gone though every single reference twice after Starman005 have been working on it. The article seems to be reliant on non-reliable fringe sources, many of them self-published. So that earns the article an additional !vote for delete per WP:BLP. WegianWarrior (talk) 05:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm taking the unusual step of posting someone else's work here in the Deletion Discussion forum for a particular reason. Mainly because another member here has said that it lacks the notability and I think that I may have picked up on something.
QUOTE WegianWarrior Delete as non-notable - while prolific among the fringe, little to no mention in reliable sources. WP:FRINGEBLP, WP:GNG and WP:RS is relevant here. WegianWarrior (talk) 07:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Well now, the self published refs mainly refer to the music and film releases which I have looked up and can most likely be referenced elswhere on nortable sites. This appears to be a repetition of what I have had to endure. (Boss Reality (talk) 08:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]
- Per this edit, I have removed your reposting of the mainspace article within this discusssion. Afd discussions are to decide the fate of an article. We do not move entire articles to their respective Afd discussions in order to preserve them. Location (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am not sure why Boss Reality feels a need to quote what I said a couple of lines up, nor I am sure what self-published sources has to do with the policies I refereed to... but IF reliable sources exists, why are they not used in the article? Though in all fairness, Starman005 have stripped out a few references I tagged as unreliable and self published - even if the article still falls well short of WP:GNG and WP:BLP WegianWarrior (talk) 19:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, notblity is established and I agree with the creator, Also there seem to be NY Times and NBC linkes too. Good enough ! (Boss Reality (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]
- CommentAgain, you have shown no guideline based evidence. You don't even appear to have checked the links. The NY Times link[10] doesn't discuss him at all, has no biography, etc. It couldn't be more trivial and speaks to his lack of notability. The NBC/AP article simply quotes him briefly with no discussion. Dougweller (talk) 08:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - Simply quotes him? Most people get paraphrased. And NBC doesn't do indepth, you have to go to Washington Post or New York Times or at the very least Time to get a discussion. It is all very well having good taste in newspapers, but leave your aesthetic sensibilities at home when you come to the real world, would you please, D? Thanks. Anarchangel (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I refer to what the page looks / looked like at a certain time. So looking at this capture here I made after the last edit done by WegianWarrior at 11:42, 10 August 2014‎. That's what the page looked like after his / her edit. Basically the statement by this person is totaly incorrect. WegianWarrior says he / she has been through all the refs twice.
Quote WegianWarrior: "I have gone though every single reference twice after Starman005 have been working on it. The article seems to be reliant on non-reliable fringe sources, many of them self-published."
This is incorrect and even I can see (with one eye closed) that the main foundation of the article is reliant on credible refs. Sure there are some self publshed refs. The self published refs are to do with some of the recordings released and a film or 2. It's the same as saying a house with concrete foundations has bamboo foundations and is unsteady just because the window covers are made from bamboo. If there is a bit of intentional misleading then that's very naughty of our young friend. If not then very careless and reckless. But besides that I know that this is a repetition of what happened with my articles and I do believe I detect censorship yet again. I'm not losing my mind here as I have asked others to look in and they have seen what I've seen. Now it seems others have to endure this with their articles and have their work deleted. Could this be so that people are now deciding what others should access? I do know from my limited time here that certain articles are much more likely to be deleted go against the official version of things and if the people they're about are hated by certain groups or organisations. This is commonn knowledge.I remember once a case of a boy messing up his brothers bed then calling his mother to say his brother hadn't made his bed. He may now have grown up into a man I once worked with who would sabotage other co workers projects to make them look bad. If Wikipedia is going to be an encylopedia with blanked out pages then we need to have a good long look at things and decide if this should be a place where one group decides what others should see and know. I can tell you right here and now that's not something I'd support. (Boss Reality (talk) 10:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Comment It seems to me like you still don't have a policy-based reason why we should keep this, and are resorting to attacking your fellow editors.. frankly, it makes it hard for me to assume good faith on your part any longer. However, lets have a look at the article as it stands now (per the time I'm typing). There is 22 references listed.

One goes to a transcript on "CNN.com" from the Glen Beck Show, which is at best borderline fringe.
One is "Escapee From America Magazine", which has all indications of a fringe website, fails WP:RS.
Five is "Coast to Coast AM", which is catering to the fringe, fails WP:RS
One is to "Freedom's Phoenix", which appears to be a fringe website, fails WP:RS
One is to vonKleinst own website, self-published, as such ought to be avoided
One is to "lewrockwell.com", which has all the indications of a fringe website, fails WP:RS
One is to "Wake Up! the Lord is Returning", a self-published book that appears far fringe, fails WP:RS (I hope the author's bed&breakfast is better than his book though)
One is to "911inplanesite.com", a self-published fringe website, fails WP:RS
One is to "Why Do Drugs Cost So Much?", another self published fringe book, fails WP:RS
One is to "William Lewis Films", and is a dead link... looking at our article on William Lewis (film director) though, it's pretty clear that it's fringe as well.

That is fourteen (14) fringe and/or self-published sources, out of twenty-two. So yes, this article, as it stands, seems to be reliant on non-reliable fringe sources, many of them self-published. So... do you have any policy backed arguments as to why this should stay, or is this a purely emotional reaction from you? WegianWarrior (talk) 11:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is actually 16 sources. The AllMusic ref lists three albums the label is CD Baby which is a self publishing vehicle, so no record label has produced/distributed his work. IMDb, AllMovie and the info page hosted at The New York Times website (based on unedited content from Baseline) three very low quality sources. The NBC News source is "Weird NNBC News" news of the weird sections/features are specifically discussed in policy as not reliable sources. The New Scientist article makes passing mention also something discussed in policy as not supporting notability. The other sources are discussed above as non RS Fringe junk. The Coast to Coast ref in addition to being fringe is a bio of a guest on a talk radio show promotional bios are not RS. There is no significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources. Total fail of notability in any possible classification/category. - - MrBill3 (talk) 02:54, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Funny he hasn'e linked any of the websites that mention his relationships with neo-Nazis and other far-righters. Something that several of these biographies (eg his wife) have in common. Dougweller (talk) 15:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I would just like to point out that Coast to Coast AM is a globally syndicated radio program which has interviewed everyone from Michio Kaku, Kevin Mitnick, Pat Boone, David Talbot etc (they cover a lot of ground); the original host Art Bell was interviewed by Larry King. Maybe the episodes should be cited instead of the Bio (which are usually written by Coast anyway, not the subjects). Lew Rockwell(.com) is not fringe (they run the same content as Common Dreams) - LR is an WP:RS. Claiming that CNN and Glenn Beck are fringe is simply preposterous - by that token Democracy Now would be as well. Mayhaps the above alleged National Socialist connections are not mentioned because we lack an RS? (although, there is also nothing inherently wrong with a far-"right" association; I do not see why it was even mentioned, by an Admin no less) His wife is lacking an article here and is not the subject of this article, so it is of no concern with this discussion. -- dsprc ^[talk] 04:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Dougweller, You say you "have tried to find reliable sources to rewrite it". I say no! You and your crew have already deleted 2 or 3 articles by boss reality and just recenly one Beyond Treason by the person who created the article and put in all the hard work. That film was Grand Festival Award Winner 2005 at the Berkeley Film Festival and you and your crew have destroyed the hard work that others have done because of various reasons. Now Dave vonKleist is next to go. What else have you got on your list? (Starman005 (talk) 05:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Comment to Dougweller, You say you "have tried to find reliable sources to rewrite it". I say no! You and your crew have already deleted 2 or 3 articles by boss reality and just recenly one Beyond Treason by the person who created the article and put in all the hard work. That film was Grand Festival Award Winner 2005 at the Berkeley Film Festival and you and your crew have destroyed the hard work that others have done because of various reasons. Now Dave vonKleist is next to go. What else have you got on your list? (Starman005 (talk) 05:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 :::Funny he hasn'e linked any of the websites that mention his relationships with neo-Nazis and other far-righters. Something that several of these biographies (eg his wife) have in common. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 15:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 ::::'''Comment''': I would just like to point out that ''Coast to Coast AM'' is a globally syndicated radio program which has interviewed everyone from [[Michio Kaku]], [[Kevin Mitnick]], [[Pat Boone]], [[David Talbot]] etc (they cover a lot of ground); the original host [[Art Bell]] was interviewed by [[Larry King]]. Maybe the episodes should be cited instead of the Bio (which are ''usually'' written by ''Coast'' anyway, not the subjects). [[Lew Rockwell]](.com) is '''not''' fringe (they run the same content as [[Common Dreams]]) - LR is an [[WP:RS]]. Claiming that CNN and Glenn Beck are fringe is simply preposterous - by that token [[Democracy Now]] would be as well. Mayhaps the above alleged National Socialist connections are not mentioned because we lack an RS? (although, there is also nothing inherently wrong with a far-"right" association; I do not see why it was even mentioned, by an Admin no less) His wife is lacking an article here and is not the subject of ''this'' article, so it is of no concern with this discussion. --&nbsp;[[User:Dsprc|<span style="color: purple">'''dsprc'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Dsprc|<span style="color: green"><sup>'''[talk]'''</sup></span>]] 04:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
+*'''Comment to Dougweller''', You say you "have tried to find reliable sources to rewrite it". I say no! You and your crew have already deleted 2 or 3 articles by boss reality and just recenly one ''[[Beyond Treason]]'' by the person who created the article and put in all the hard work. That film was Grand Festival Award Winner 2005 at the Berkeley Film Festival and you and your crew have destroyed the hard work that others have done because of various reasons. Now Dave vonKleist is next to go. What else have you got on your list? ([[User:Starman005|Starman005]] ([[User talk:Starman005|talk]]) 05:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC))
 *'''Comment to Dougweller''', You say you "have tried to find reliable sources to rewrite it". I say no! You and your crew have already deleted 2 or 3 articles by boss reality and just recenly one ''[[Beyond Treason]]'' by the person who created the article and put in all the hard work. That film was Grand Festival Award Winner 2005 at the Berkeley Film Festival and you and your crew have destroyed the hard work that others have done because of various reasons. Now Dave vonKleist is next to go. What else have you got on your list? ([[User:Starman005|Starman005]] ([[User talk:Starman005|talk]]) 05:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC))