User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Process question for the current ArbCom gender case

Hello, Jimmy.

On Thanksgiving morning I woke up to find that, even though the evidence phase of the current ArbCom gender case is closed, arbitrator Salvio has introduced new evidence against me, without notifying me, and has cast a deciding vote to ban me from English Wikipedia based on the new evidence. [1] I have not been informed of whether I am to be allowed to present evidence of my own, but I am at a huge disadvantage here because I can't see the evidence they are presenting against me, since it has been oversighted. Can this suppressed evidence be provided to me?

I have also been informed that someone tried to present a comment on my behalf to the Committee by email, however it was rejected, for the reason that "for transparency's sake, the committee does not accept comments about open cases by e-mail". However it does appear that the committee is willing to accept new evidence against me, some of it more than 4 months old, after the evidence phase has closed, and add it to the case on behalf of someone who remains anonymous. I would also point out that I was added as a party to the case after the case opened, also at the request of arbitrator Salvio, who was unable to provide any evidence or any reason for doing so. There is a long tradition in Western justice against the use of lettre de cachet, and for the accused to be able to meet their accusers face to face. But in this case the arbitration committee has been less than transparent, and is proposing to act both as judge, and as a proxy for those who wish to present evidence against me anonymously.

I would also mention that one of the oversighted edits in the new evidence against me pertains to events that occurred after I made some edits to a transcript of a Signpost interview of Lila Tretikov, and resulting actions that I took after my email account was bombarded with oversize files, with the stated intention of disrupting my email service. I have asked the individual involved if they would agree to the release of their emails, but permission has been refused. The WMF was involved in this incident, and no actions were taken against anyone at the time, so I am puzzled as to why this is suddenly a new issue, especially when there are privacy issues involved, and the situation has already been handled. Are there WMF records of the incident that I could request, or should I reconsider releasing the emails, which I consider to be private. Any insights would be appreciated.

Regards, —Neotarf (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

As you have been told wikipedia is not a legal environment and all of your behavior even months old is still relevant in an Arbcom case. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

HIAB, didn't TParis suggest at ArbCom three days ago to disengage from interacting with Neotarf? Lightbreather (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Lightbreather, nice to see you finally logged in. You are quite right he did suggest that, I've chosen to not take that suggestion because what I've said wasn't a personal attack but I'm glad to see everyone in your little circle still remembers how to WP:FORUMSHOP. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 00:11, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I believe you're casting aspersions, and I think I've said everything I needed to say at ArbCom, so I'll resume my retirement. Bye now. Lightbreather (talk) 00:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The evidence has been presented on the arbcom page somewhat miraculously before you logged in, an odd coincidence that. If you care to explain it there I'm all ears but I notice you don't even deny it. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 00:55, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I have already debunked these lies on the PD talk page, cf. Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force/Proposed decision#New evidence against Neotarf submitted by Salvio. Neotarf was given the chance to comment on these diffs in private and she did. I'll not comment any further here. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 00:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

How can I be "given a chance to comment on a diff in private" when I do not have access to it? The diff where I documented Tutelary's "own willing disclosure of the information", if information it is, has been suppressed, and my queries about the reason for the suppression have gone unanswered, both on-wiki and by email; it is pointless to have any further discussion until the suppressed edits can be made available, or for arbs to continue to vote to ban me based on the existence of suppressed edits that can not be examined.

I would note that while Mr. Giuliano is quick to champion Tutelary's privacy, in the above post, he makes reference to me as "she". Perhaps Mr. Giuliano can document why he believes I might be female, and where in the wikimedia world I have willingly disclosed such information. —Neotarf (talk) 15:55, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Neotarf have you ever asked them not to refer to you as she? Please provide a diff as to when that happened and I'm sure it will be fixed and User:Salvio giuliano will strike it and refer you to whatever pronoun you wish to use. To be clear though are you trying to attempt to insinuate that he is somehow outing you? I think it's odd that you are picking on one arbitrator when there are 7 that are voting to ban you...scape goat one, and his name just got the short stick? Think about it from an employer employee relationship. An employee can miss 5 days in a set period misses 4 days for various reasons valid or not, but then day 5 rolls around and something legitimate happens and then they lose their job and it's gosh if they just let this slide this one time I'd be fine..completely ignoring the other 4 times they didn't show up to work. Your situation is similar look as far back as the Men's Right's case, you were involved. It's a never ending nightmare. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The only 'never ending nightmare' is the way you and others are pursing every means possible to pursue those daring to raise the issue of gender disparity on Wikipedia. AnonNep (talk) 16:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Ditto. And the more decent guys help fight this nonsense, the better. That's an invitation with a big smiley. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Neotarf, if "the person involved" was the one sending the over-sized emails, I cannot see why you would be bound not to release those emails. Indeed you could validly release them to law enforcement, and the appropriate abuse contact at their ISP. As to Salvio's behaviour, I called him out on this right at the start, and he refused to recuse. Have no fear, though, you have your supporter on ArbCom and many new remedies have been proposed and much banning all around will ensue... (More likely most of it will grind to a stumbling halt, and a closure vote will eventually be taken). All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC).

To the best of my knowledge: 1) There is no rule that arbs can't present evidence that doesn't come from the evidence section of a case. I've seen it happen before. 2) There is no time limit on the age of a diff used in an arbitration case. Cardamon (talk) 04:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to let this discussion continue here if it is useful, but it seems likely to me that it isn't very useful. In any event, I will not be doing anything other than just reading this unless something more material surfaces. I can say this by way of broad philosophical statement: it is important in ArbCom cases that people not be punished based on evidence that they haven't seen or are not allowed the chance to rebut. There can be exceptions, but they are very rare.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:53, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I have been trying to post for the last hour but unfortunately the page is not stable. —Neotarf (talk) 02:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

All smart people -- whether good or evil -- have kittens!

Robbie0630 (talk) 03:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)