Talk:Sageworks

Website

Hi, I just wanted to change the website address in the top right box on the page. The new web site address for Sageworks is www.sageworks.com. 24.206.46.166 (talk) 21:05, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

That was  Done. --doncram 21:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Article content

The article appears to have been written for purely company promotional purposes. Several edits seek to disguise the fact that Sageworks both offers software services and at the same time repackages and resells for profit customer supplied private company data.

Web based software companies run significant risk of data loss due to security data breach. Sageworks exacerbates this by deliberately reselling the customer data.

No indemnity for data loss is offered to the customers.

This article is about a non-notable private company and should be deleted.--Slowestonian (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

These views were expressed by editor Slowestonian in the AFD that Slowestonian opened in January (linked from a box above), and which was closed "No Concensus". There is more to add to the article based on the AFD discussion (including academic paper/appendix about the Sageworks database which I commented about in the AFD), and the article is different now, too. Slowestonian is free to raise new/continuing issues, including re-raising any of their concerns expressed here, and is doing so in sections below. But let's consider this one section to be done, though, okay? --doncram 21:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I may "hat" this or mark it as a closed/finished discussion. Anyhow, please address new/continuing issues below. --doncram 21:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

editors associated with the subject?

(section split out and titled by me. --doncram 21:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC))

The article is persistently manipulated by what appears to be a number of sockpuppet accounts. The following accounts appear to have been created solely to edit this article only:

77 woodmont

Roamingeditor222226

--Slowestonian (talk) 05:16, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

An additional editor whose sole contribution in Wikipedia is to provide distorting contributions to this article is:

Entrepreneurship58039

These editors appear to be associated with Sageworks and seek to turn Wikipedia into a commercial promotion soapbox.--Physitsky (talk) 07:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Those are pretty strong statements!, perhaps over-statements. I was contacted at my Talk by User:77 woodmont and invited to comment here.

It is okay for editors who have an association with a firm to edit the article about the firm, although they should be directed to familiarize themselves with wp:COI policy and to abide by it. As I recall, the Conflict of Interest (COI) policy includes that editors should generally disclose their relationship, and they can definitely participate freely in Talk page discussion and make specific suggestions of passages to include in the article. COI editors are allowed to edit in the article. But if there are disagreements they should generally back off and discuss issues at the Talk page, only, (except they can continue to make uncontroversial changes like correcting the company's website) and they should allow non-COI editors to make edits where things are controversial.

Have these editors all been advised of wp:COI? I'll follow up to them and will comment further soon. --doncram 21:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe the article is a self-promotional piece that is being pushed with the fervor of someone associated with this insignificant company. The point I was making with my edits is that Sageworks engages in the practice of collecting and reselling private customer data that is typically jealously protected by business owners. Its business model along with its web-facing systems are prone to cyber attacks.

This business model and customer data loss risk must be clearly stated in this article. Hiding this from the reader is a disservice to Wikipedia visitors. --Physitsky (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Editorializing and Evading the Key Issue with the Article

An editor "slowestonian" has consistently editorialized and violated both WP:EDITORIAL and WP:WEASEL on this page. Please desist. It's clear from his/her editing history that he/she has run run into this issue with other users and pages before.

Cannot speak for the other account mentioned, but if you'll look at my history you'll see that I've edited several other entries. Thanks. --Roamingeditor222226 (talk) 30 December 2014 (UTC)

All my edits are referenced using the Sageworks own policies posted online, such as their privacy policy and terms of use. You appear to be attempting to disguise the fundamental issues with this article, namely that it is an attempt at a self-promotion by a non-notable private company. Please refrain from rote quotes of WP:EDITORIAL and WP:WEASEL, as they are clearly subject to interpretation.

The article needs to be reviewed by senior Wikipedia editors for possible deletion. --Slowestonian (talk) 01:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the article could benefit from some senior editor eyes (although if you look at the editing history, you'll see that it has received attention from senior editors). I'm ambivalent about the existence of this article, but as long as it does exist and you continue to editorialize and use misleading language, I will continue to correct it. Thanks for understanding.

--Roamingeditor222226 (talk) 31 December 2014 (UTC)

You need to focus on the simple fact that this article is a thinly disguised attempt at self-promotion. It serves no other purpose and should be deleted from Wikipedia. --Slowestonian (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Making the entry more readable & avoiding WP:EW

There's clearly some disagreement on this page. Some parties have voiced that this article is too self-promotional (though I believe the majority of those instances have been corrected). Some, like myself, have voiced that there's too much editorializing on the part of an editor (though I believe most of those instances have been corrected as well). As stated above, I think this entry could benefit from attn from senior editors. However, if the entry remains, it needs to be more readable. It currently reads as a product of bickering (see WP:EW) rather than anything informative.

I'd like to slightly rearrange the sections of the piece over the next week, while preserving the content, in order to make the piece actually readable/informative. I'd ask that other editors on the page assume good faith as I rearrange these sections. If the article is deleted (as stated above, I'm ambivalent on that, and would differ to senior editors) that's one thing, but if it remains, it should be readable. Roamingeditor222226 (talk) 20:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Excellent idea. It would be appropriate to state what we know about the rather questionable business model. It would be illuminating for Wikipedia readers to realize that Sageworks offers both the software services and then resells customer-provided private company data as a second line of business. Non-disclosure and loss prevention of such critical data entrusted to the software provider is a fundamental element of the contract between itself and its customers. Where a profit incentive clearly exists to disclose such data in some form, a mention of the potential conflict of interest must be made.

Without proper explanation, this fact is concealed, thus misleading the reader as to the actual business practices employed by Sageworks.

This is important as the practice of offering a service and then mining the contents for additional financial gain is a significant observation that a Wikipedia reader should be able to make after reading this article.--Slowestonian (talk) 05:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Editor Roamingeditor222226 continues to try to conceal the facts behind the Sageworks attempts to shield itself against third party claims arising from its use of customer provided data. This begs the question as to what level of responsibility for customer data protection Sageworks assumes. Looks like not much. --Slowestonian (talk) 04:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

If you read my edit you'll see my qualm was with the phrasing, after I reviewed the cited clause more carefully. Your rephrasing of the section may more accurate, but I'm planning to review the source/clause once again to ensure that it is, in fact, accurate. I'm not trying to conceal anything, I'm aiming for accuracy. I'd advise you to review some of the Wiki policies more closely, in this case WP:GF. --Roamingeditor222226 (talk) 08:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

As a secondary note, I'm fascinated by your tendency to use misleading language in this entry, as well as your laser focus on what appears to be a fairly standard terms of use clause. Have you ever read a privacy policy or terms of use clause? Do you see direct wording of these kinds of clauses on other company pages? I don't. It all comes across as very strange. Part of me suspects that you may be working for a competitor of this company, but again, I'd like to assume good faith. Just know that I am planning to watch your edits on this page extremely closely. Thanks for understanding. --Roamingeditor222226 (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It seems that you continue to miss the point I am making, namely that Sageworks is duty bound to protect the customer data it collects. Instead, it engages in dubious practices of repackaging and profiting from the very data it is expected to protect. Disclosure of such data may cause major harm to its customers, yet Sageworks seeks to shield itself from all responsibility for such harm by legalese. At best, it is a highly disingenuous practice, at worst, a rather brazen attempt to profit from its customers in unethical ways. --Slowestonian (talk) 02:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)