Talk:420 (cannabis culture)

Criticism?

Why is there no criticism section in this article? Not everyone thinks this holiday is actually much of a holiday or even a good holiday or if it even helps the 'legalize marijauna' crowd. That and they chose a rather terrible day, Hitler's Birthday, to host it. Thats not what its about sure, but its not exactly much of a booster to yor efforts if you use the day of the birth of the worst dictator in history as a day to celebrate getting high. And in case you're wondering, yes I do think 4/20 is a stupid holiday and there should be some kind of criticism section in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.96.7 (talk • contribs) 14:07, October 2, 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps because no criticism exists in reliable sources? –xeno (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That may be so, or perhaps no one bothers to look because they don't want to look like a NARC for putting up a criticism section. Christmas, Halloween, Easter, they all have something of a criticism page, even if its not about the Holiday itself but the reasons we celebrate it and the customs and traditions involved in it. Commercialization for Christmas, how religious groups view Halloween, if anything there should be some article by Anti-Drug or Anti-Marijuana advocates who denounce 4/20, perhaps even Jews who find the fact that people could have fun on Hitler's Birthday offensive.

Not a good idea, in my opinion (and it has nothing to do with the fact that I really love weed). Unlike Christmas or Halloween, or any other holiday for that matter, 420 isn't an official holiday, but rather an unofficial celebration (like Bicycle Day is for acid), there isn't a specific way of celebrating it (unlike Halloween with the costumes and Xmas with the tree and shit), it's not an official rule that celebrations most include getting stoned and protesting, so there's nothing to criticise, really. I think you're just trying to shove a bit anti-weed propaganda into the article. "They chose a rather terrible day, Hitler's Birthday" - you make it sound as if it was chosen because of that reason, knowingly... they didn't choose "Hitler's birthday", they chose a date that is (coincidently) also Hitler's birthday.
Plus, I'm Jewish and you can rest assured that I'm not offended by this coincidence, and if someone is offended, he's a fucktard. —Saltywood ^(talk) 13:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Who would find the fact that people could have fun on Hitler's birthday offensive? Are we supposed to mope all day? Anyway, it seems that it was a number that was sulected and the celebration on the date came because it corresponded to the number. Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, it originated around the time of 4:20, not a date of 4/20. Secondly, the two events are coincidental, there is no relationship between the annual celebration of 420 and Hitler's birthday. Thirdly, if properly citied criticism exists, it belongs in the article.--Pchov (talk) 04:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

but is it really coincidential? 95.208.187.120 (talk) 22:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it is all a giant conspiracy of pothead neo-nazis because getting stoned is a great way to pay tribute to Hitler. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

"420" is older than 1971!

I don't know the origin, but as a student at the University of Michigan (1969-1973) I can tell you that the 'Hash Bash' was celebrated on the 'Diag' in the center of campus every April 20th. The campus police kindly kept a low profile (it was only a misdemeanor ticket in the early 70's). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.121.69.102 (talk) 01:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The story in the article which states that the term "420" originated in 1971 cannot possibly be true. Why? Because, in 1966, Bob Dylan released a song called "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35," featuring the well-known refrain, "Everybody must get stoned." The numbers in the title, 12 and 35, when multiplied together, yield a product of 420 -- and Bob Dylan would NOT have done this by mistake. Therefore, the "420" term is at least as old as 1966, and quite possibly a LOT older. If anyone can find out where it really came from (and when), please revise this article accordingly. RobertAustin (talk) 19:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Riiiiiiight. Got a source? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL! Not everything that Bob ever said is fraught with multiple layers of significance. PurpleChez (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Um, I don't believe Bob Dylan was ever highly involved in cannabis culture and that song itself was an ironic satire of it. If the term was wide spread enough at that point to be known by someone outside the culture then there surly would be some other source. There are all kinds of coincidences in popular music. For example, have you ever tried playing Dark Side of the Moon in time with The Wizard of Oz? Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Funny that you should suggested that Dylan wasn't involved in cannabis culture. Bob Dylan told High Times magazine's Larry Jaffe that he didn't know "who first turn him onto pot", but "a lot of pot was smoked". He also talked in an interview in Playboy in 1963 about how Rainy Day Women DID talk about marijuana, and its being banned from radio airwaves. There was even talk of Dylan turning The Beatles onto pot. This to me is just as much of a connection of "420" to pot as there ever will be. --MahJesus —Preceding undated comment added 18:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC).

It is just the same number. There needs to be a documented connection. Seriously the number 420 comes up all over, that does not mean it is connected with this cultural phenomenon. Looking at things and finding connections is original research which is normally all fine and well, but Wikipedia does not accept original research. ⚗ Dr. StrangeBong ⚗ (talk) 03:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Some people thinks it's younger than 1971. I hear people saying it's from Smokin'_(Boston_song). This is just in casual talk, and that the group of kids claiming in 1971 are just full of it. Can't find any die hard sources. Xmzx (talk) 19:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

To expect concrete information regarding something that has been illegal and underground is unreasonable and useless. The entire discourse revolving around marijuana has been laden with subtext and specific language and terminology not mentioned in concrete sources out of fear of governmental retribution. I seriously suggest we remove that section from the introduction and into the body of the article where any issues can be documented and addressed. OhYeah098765 (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I am also of the opinion that 'Rainy Day Woman' was the original source of 420. It should at the very least be mentioned in the main article. Another one to be looked into: reportedly the inventor of LSD-25 took the first documented trip in human history at 4:20pm sometime during the 1950s. This comes from an older Rolling Stone article with the exact date etc; I will get the source if anyone considers this a valid theory as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.43.247 (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Whether true or not, the validity of this so-called origin story would not be accepted for virtually any other topic, since there is so little evidence that would prove it.

Here's an interesting detail, Finnish artist Vesa-Matti Loiri released his debut solo album "4+20" (fi:4+20) in 1971. In my opinion there's no way this term could have been known in the most remote country of Europe the same year it was invented. It must be much older. --Joe Kaniini (talk) 13:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's unlikely Dylan's song was the source of 420, but it could be a cryptic reference to 420 as a pre-existing code. I think we need (a) a reliable source for Dylan etc, (b) an unambiguous reference to 420 before 1971. I don't find the Waldo story very believable.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The story that I heard from a linguistics professor who had studied it once was that it came from:

Barber, barber, shave a pig.
How many hairs will make a wig?
Four and twenty; that’s enough.
Give the barber a pinch of snuff.

in the Mother Goose poem "Barber". Four and twenty having been a number used often as "a bunch" (you also see it in "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"), but this association with giving payment through drugs was new to the time around this poem. Then, I guess there was some general usage changes (I don't remember where it was said to have been popping up). And it now has it's current meaning from that tradition. I don't have the proper references to make that kind of update, but if someone else has seen that theory with reference, it would be nice to have this confirmed. Possibly, the story currently on the article is not incorrect to modern popularization as well.--Ex0du5 5utu7e (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

claims and counter claims

I'm Steve Hager and I played a major role in promoting 420 around the world. I was the first person to do 420 ceremonies outside of Marin County, in fact, starting in 1990. I have video of many of the early 420 ceremonies I did at the Cannabis Cup in the 1990s, an event I created. Mike Edison wrote a hatchet job about his brief tenure at High Times. I was editor for over 20 years. he did not accept anything I was doing at any time, especially my ideas about 420, although I was interviewed about 420 by ABC and put the link at the bottom of this page. Edison to this day insists we don't know who created 420. This is false. The Waldos of San Rafael have plenty of evidence to support their claim to having created the code, including postmarked letters from 1971. Coincidences around the number, like Hitler's birthday or Rainy Day Women have nothing to do with the code the Waldos created for pot. When Edison says I tried to suppress other stories, that is a lie. I suppressed nothing. I did research the origins and write about it. Yes, the truth does replace the lies, if you are lucky, that's what it is supposed to do. Meanwhile people like Edison just continue to support the fake stories, like it was a police code, which is sheer nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Temple Dragon (talk • contribs) 10:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

1) The claims of an anonymous account to be a living person must be verified through the WP:OTRS before we can accept the claims of identity as authentic. 2) The area of expertise of Hager is as the publisher of a pot magazine, not as a historian. Hagers statements here or in his magazine will only carry weight as his opinion not as declarations of fact.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:18, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

2)"420" is in fact "police radio code" in the Bay Area for "juvenile disturbance". While there is no proof that "420" in cannabis culture refers to police code, it is incorrect to state that "420" is "sheer nonsense" or not a criminal or police code for anything, as has been stated by many including the current page on Snopes.com.

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/San_Francisco%2C_City_%26_County_of_Public_Safety http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/420.asp Theaternearyou (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

420 in Indian subcontinent

420 is common term in Indian subcontinent used for someone who is a thief/trickster/clever in mischievous way. The origin of the word goes long before it's use in the US for cannabis. The word originates by Penal Code of 1860 instituted by the colonial government of British India. Section 420 covers offences relating to cheating and dishonestly. Maybe there should be reference in this article about it's origin in Indian subcontinent.

I am pretty sure someone from Indian subcontinent (pakistan, india, bangladesh), probably students, tricked some American pot smokers into using the word for themselves back in 1960s or 1970s. What else could explain that weird coincidence? In that sense they were "420" (mischievous trickster) who tricked people into using a (bad) Indian slang for themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.50.116 (talk) 22:10, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2014

PEOPLE'S PARK

In 1965, New Yorker, Stew Albert, moved to California following the beginning of the Free Speech Movement taking place during the 1964–1965 academic year on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley. The movement stemmed from the university administration's ban of on-campus political activities. There he met Chicagoan, Stewart Albert, a member of the soon to be notorious Chicago 8, and Jerry Rubin, from Ohio. Together they traveled back and forth to New York, NY, where together with Paul Krassner and several others, founded the Youth International Party in December 1967, nicknamed the Yippies.

The Yippie Party was anti-war, pro marijuana, pro free speech, pro black power, and loosely organized. Yippie became the nickname for the group and title given to radicalized hippies. As Paul Krassner wrote, "We needed a name to signify the radicalization of hippies, and I came up with Yippie as a label for a phenomenon that already existed, an organic coalition of psychedelic hippies and political activists. In the process of cross-fertilization at antiwar demonstrations, we had come to share an awareness that there was a linear connection between putting kids in prison for smoking pot in this country and burning them to death with napalm on the other side of the planet." The Yippie flag was frequently seen at anti-war demonstrations. The flag had a black background with a five-pointed red star in the center, and a green cannabis leaf superimposed over it. Yippies organized marijuana "smoke-ins" across North America through the 1970s and into the 1980s. The first YIP smoke-in was attended by 25,000 in Washington, D.C. on July 4, 1970.

On 18 April 1969, Stew Albert, back at Berkeley, wrote an article in the Berkley Barb, calling for the community to organize and beautify a UC Berkley campus lot the University had been neglecting after they had demoed several campus buildings on the site over a year earlier.

On 20 April 1969 (4/20) hundreds of students and residents came forward to beautify the lot into a park, and create a speaking platform (the People's Stage) for free speech. Although the park received great support from the community and professors, the Governor of California, Ronald Reagan, was cracking down on communist/socialist movements on California's college campuses. His targeting of the park, led to the May 15, 1969, "Bloody Thursday" riot. That morning California law enforcement took control of the park, and by the late afternoon thousands of protesters, incited by Student Counsel President and leader in the local Students for a Democratic Society (a Socialist movement which would later evolve into Weather Underground), arrived to take back the park. Over the next 5 days, local police, Alameda County Sheriff Deputies, Highway Patrol and National Guard Soldiers squared off against thousands or rioters and protesters leading to hundreds injured, and the death of James Rector and a police officer.

In 1967 Jerry Rubin had run for Mayor of Berkley. In 1970 Stew Albert ran for Sherriff of Alameda County, mostly out of his furor of how he and his friends had been treated during the riots. Both lost, but gained huge notoriety for their cause, even getting featured on Saturday Night Live.

The University kept the lot guarded and fenced for the next three years, voting in June 1970 to turn the lot into a sports field and parking lot. In May of 1971, as construction activity began at the site, more riots were started leading to more violence and multiple arrests. In May 1972, after President Richard Nixon announced his intention to mine North Vietnam's main port, an outraged crowd tore down the perimeter chain-link wire fence surrounding the People's Park site and began to destroy the construction site. Finally In September 1972, the Berkeley City Council voted to lease the park site from the university, and rebuilt the park. For the Yippies this signified a major victory. For High School students just 25 miles away in San Rafael, CA, the riots and news stories concerning the park were featured almost daily in the news. The Peoples Park, and the 4/20 anniversary became a rallying cry for the New Left movement, much like "remember the Alamo."

Usaparacop82 (talk) 04:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: No reliable source provided for such a massive edit Cannolis (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)