Wikipedia talk:Red link

Contradiction: YES redlink to "article that can be created" and NO "article creation guide", so which is it?

The gist of the style guideline is that redlinks to articles that should be created should exist. But then there is this non-sequitor that states the exact opposite:

"Although red links to notable topics are permitted in lists and other articles, do not overlink in the mainspace solely for use as an article creation guide. Instead, editors are encouraged to consider WP:Write the article first."

Which is correct? they can't both be correct at the same time. No "article creation guide" contradicts the entire article and it says to NOT create redlinks first. It reads like spam to get people to read the essay WP:Write the article first. It also is undue weight to have a contradiction in the second paragraph. Can it be reworded so it does not contradict the entirety of the guideline. See Talk:Eddie Foy, Sr. and join the discussion. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have moved the contradictory paragraph here for the discussion and demoted the essay to the see also section. It appears to be a dissenting opinion embedded in the guideline

"Red links are frequently present in lists and sometimes in disambiguation pages or templates. Although red links to notable topics are permitted in lists and other articles, do not overlink in the mainspace solely for use as an article creation guide. Instead, editors are encouraged to consider WP:Write the article first, or to use WikiProjects or user spaces to keep track of unwritten articles."

I don't see the conflict or why the text needed to be removed from the guideline. The text is stating that we should not create a bunch of red links simply because we want those articles created. Like the lead of the guideline currently states, "A red link, like red link example, signifies a link to a page that is either non-existent or deleted. It is useful in editing article text to create a red link to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable." We should only create redlinks for WP:Notable topics that are likely to have viable Wikipedia articles. Like WP:Notable states, not all WP:Notable topics need a Wikipedia article; some fit well in an existing article. Flyer22 (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Since the content you dispute is guideline material, it should have stayed in the guideline while you dispute the matter on the talk page. The note at the top of the guideline states: "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page." And I'm not sure what you mean by WP:Due weight, since that policy only applies to Wikipedia articles. Flyer22 (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Flyer22, there is no contradiction between "You are allowed to create redlinks" and "...but you are urged to write the article first." BMK (talk) 22:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

How about putting 'if a dispute arises about the existence of a red link, consider its notability and write a draft'? (Linking to the Article Wizard.) That has helped me when putting red links into articles. (Although it does nothing for habituating people to red links in articles, and puts the onus onto the person who wants the red link.) I think that the exhortation in the nutshell to only remove red links if you think Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject should be reiterated in the lead. It gets a little lost in the 'how to deal with existing red links' section. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Given what we say about "One study conducted in 2008 showed that red links helped Wikipedia grow. Follow-up work on this indicated that the creation of red links prevents new pages from being orphaned from the start", I do not think it would be helpful to place any onus upon editors creating redlinks, beyond advising them to abide by article naming restrictions and their good faith conviction that the redlinked topic is notable per WP:N. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 19:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), do you have anything to state regarding what I stated above? What Beyond My Ken (BMK) stated above? There should be something advising editors not to unnecessarily overlink when it comes to red links, similar to the WP:Overlink guideline. For example, the lead currently states, "Red links should not be made to every chapter in a book nor should they be made to deleted articles." Flyer22 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal names

"Red links to personal names should be avoided particularly when the name is reported in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual."

This is a little confusing as written. Is a "personal name" the first name of a person as opposed to a surname or a family name? Should it just read "person's name". It also mentions that the name might match up with a sex offender of the same name. Why would we have a list of non-notable sex offenders? I don't think we need to NOT link people's names, we just need to remind people when they create an article to properly disambiguate the person and check the "What links here" button. People's names are probably the most common reason to create a redlink. I do it all the time to see if someone is already in Wikipedia. Otherwise every reader that is curious has to create a red link to see if that person has an article. Almost every list I see is a sea of red names. I have been working on some lists of award winners for over 5 years. See International Polo Cup (redlink version) vs International Polo Cup (no redlink version), how would I know who has a biography and who doesn't unless they are linked. It makes more sense to just NOT have a list of non notable sex-offenders. Does this make sense? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

would you like" names of individuals?" The difficulty of wording policy or guidelines precisely is one of the reason why I regard policy and guidelines as descriptive of what we do. It is the examples that make the guideline, and the exemplification in actual cases that best interprets it. DGG ( talk ) 09:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with RAN's suggestion of "person's name" - "individuals" is less plain language. The issue with red linking a name and walking away is that next year someone may create an article for a person with same name who has become notable - as a sex offender, or CEO or Olympic athlete. This creates a misdirect, which would confuse readers. For example, a list of candidates for mayor of Toronto linked a minor candidate named Kevin Richardson. Even if the link had been to "Kevin Richardson (Toronto politician)", there would be a significant risk that when the article is created, it is about a different Kevin Richardson who has run for office. Linking a name and expecting someone else to create the article is a bad idea. Ground Zero | t 12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll try your wording adjustment. Of course we ought not make lists of people with borderline notability for something negative, and I think there's also a consensus to not include redlinks in lists of people of a specific cultural group. The problem of eds. filling in redlinks inappropriately is related to the problem of eds. changing redirects to something inappropriate--most of what I have seen is promotional, not abuse. I think there's been a discussion of technical measures. The use of name qualifiers would help--the likelihood of an example like just mentioned is very much lower than without them, but our current naming policy is to not use them if not necessary. I personally do not agree with that, and think we should follow the practice of some other WPs that use such qualifiers routinely, but this is one of the things I've given up arguing for. DGG ( talk ) 17:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@ Ground Zero. The hypothetical problem is that someone in the future will expand the current list of seven sex offenders and they may match a name somewhere in Wikipedia. Who don't we just more closely monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. It is so much easier than deleting or not creating hundreds of thousands of redlinks of people's names. You can make the same argument to ban bluelinks since they are just as likely to be improperly disambiguated with a name on the existing sex offender list. Just monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. I just did that recently for the scientific misconduct page, where people were adding in their enemies without any context. This was a bluelink problem: Jimmy Wales was on the Terry Gross show and she asked him why the name of her producer linked to a fictional mass murder, he said it was improperly disambiguated and fixed it. The lesson, simple names such as Danny Miller should lead to a disambiguation page, and almost all already do. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Instead of listing all the bad things like sex worker and rapists, we just need to comply with BLP.

Caution should be used when creating a redlink to a person's name. All the rules that apply to WP:BLP equally apply to redlinked names. When creating a biography from a redlink be sure to use "what links here" to make sure all the incoming links are properly disambiguated.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), DGG and Ground Zero, I just read the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" part, and I was confused. I was tempted to alter that text and/or start a discussion about the matter here at this talk page, before I saw that there is already a section about it. Why was I confused? Why was I tempted to change it? That's because the text reads contradictory to me, since, if the person is WP:Notable, then it's common that the person's name should be linked. It's like the WP:Red link guideline is encouraging the creation of a blue link for all notable topics except people. Flyer22 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

From you guys' discussion, it seems that the text is trying to state that the link shouldn't simply be about the name; it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name. But the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" text does not express that well. Flyer22 (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Nah, going by what Ground Zero stated in his "12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)" post above, it's not even about "it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name." Flyer22 (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I restored the text that was removed because I see a couple of editors expressing a concern that it's not the best wording, but no consensus that it should be removed, or what should replace it. "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided, particularly when the name is used in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual" I'm not seeing an issue with this wording, particularly because it keeps this guideline in line with the BLP policy, which most redlinks aren't directly affected by. Personal names also are far from unique in most circumstances; editors will create wikilinks to a name without checking if it's the same person, even if that article already exists, so care needs to be taken when dealing with BLP subjects. - Aoidh (talk) 16:35, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Changes

This sentence makes no sense: "But in many cases, a bit more responsibility for creating a red link should be taken to ensure the red link is entirely proper." I sounds like it was written in English, translated into Finnish, then back into English. The previous few sentences explain creating a redlink only for notable things. This is not needed, the previous part explains the rules perfectly without an added caution in poor English. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

query

At what point are "future article" red links in an article excessive?

Note Aurelia Greene has red links for 14 articles not yet created for "New York Legislatures" spanning from 185 to 198.

Should a limit of some sort be placed on such mechanical lists of non-existent articles? Or is it likely that since the articles will eventually exist that we should populate biographies with all potential future articles and my amusement is unwarranted? Collect (talk) 20:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

That example is just plain bad writing. Even if they were blue links we wouldn't/shouldn't individually list and link the 15 specific numbered legislatures she served in. The fact that 14 of them are redlinks is not the problem. The line should be edited to read: "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009." I haven't done that now so as not to destroy the example. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Except User:Kraxler is in fact creating those very articles in chronological order, so it is best to keep them. See for instance 184th New York State Legislature to see how much research goes into each article. You can see where it takes weeks of research to create a single article. While the lede can cay "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009", linking to to the session summary is an excellent idea in the body. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, it has been standard practice to add blue links to all congresses they were sitting in at US congressmen's bios. I just followed the pattern with state legislators. One of the main basic features of Wikipedia are exactly the blue links which lead the reader to interesting/important context. "She was a member of the NYSA from xxxx to yyyy" will never provide any context. The blue links show what happened in the Legislature while the member was acting there. And yes, there are now 7 blue links and 8 red links at Aurelia Greene, but look at Charles J. Hewitt, the first man to serve 30 years in the New York State Senate, there are 30 blue legislature links, for the interested reader to explore. And if there are no blue links, people tag articles as WP:UNDERLINKed... Kraxler (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

mobile Wikipedia

Please provide more information (in this article) about how en.m.wikipedia.org handles redlinks. 71.178.51.189 (talk) 18:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Changes needed

Nav boxes NO red links

• "Red links generally are not included ... in navigational boxes" Why is that? Of course they should be. How is the reader to know whether the article exists and needs brackets to make a blue link, or we need to have an article on that person. This should be removed. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), I don't agree with this removal of text you made. Just like the WP:See also section, WP:NAVBOXES are meant to direct readers to existing articles, not indicate that an article should be created. What the text you removed is stating is that a topic that does not have a Wikipedia article should not be listed in the WP:NAVBOX; so your statement of "if it is important to have the name or place in a navbox" is irrelevant since the topics should not be listed there if they have no Wikipedia articles.

I will likely start a WP:RfC on this for input. Generally, I am against significant/huge changes being made to a Wikipedia policy or guideline without significant discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

A redlink indicates that an article very probably should be created. The mere existence of the name in the succession box indicates this by itself, since we use these boxes (or should be using them) only for positions that are very likely to imply notability. DGG ( talk ) 19:26, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

DGG, are you arguing that we should have red links in the navboxes? If so, the guideline already addresses the one exception to red links being in the navboxes -- the succession box aspect. Otherwise, they should not be there. Including them there doesn't even align with the WP:NAVBOX essay. Flyer22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

A redlink to a person's name should be avoided

• I still think this needs to be removed "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" it still means to NEVER create a redlink, and is being used that way in arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles. Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

"Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create." While that may or may not be true, that has nothing to do with the relevance of personal names being used as redlinks. Would you mind giving a link to one of these arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles that cites "a redlink to a person's name should be avoided"? Without context I don't really think that's the case, because that seems like a generalization that has no relevance to the merits of the actual content. - Aoidh (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: As seen in the #Personal names section above, I recently commented about this. Flyer22 (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Clarification of 'likelihood'

As I recently have had two reversions from the same person on the interpretation of 'likelihood', could we please clarify this in the guideline? I think that red links should be created when they link to valid titles - if it happens that they can be covered in other areas of the encyclopedia, then that is what redirects are for. I think the 'likelihood' is being confused into 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because there are few people on wikipedia to make them' or 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because the topic is obscure'. I don't think that these are valid arguments, because Wikipedia is a work in progress, and lots of notable, verifiable, and valid topics are obscure if you are outside the field that they crop up in. I would like to see some clarification of what is likely on the article guideline page - I tried to add it in (my first link) but was reverted. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

You can go ahead and mention my username; I don't mind. Yes, I reverted you at the Yaoi article. And I stated in that revert, "And how do we know they are WP:Notable? Provide proof on the article talk page. WP:Notable is also clear that not every notable topic should have its own article." You have posted this as your proof. I will respond there. But as for validity, creating a red link just because you think that the title is valid is not valid. Too often, an editor will create a red link just because he or she wants to see an article created for that topic, even when that topic is not WP:Notable or should not have a Wikipedia article per what is outlined in the WP:NOPAGE section of the WP:Notable guideline. Then we are left with an article on a non-WP:Notable topic or a WP:Stub for a topic that will very likely never expand beyond a stub. And, yes, like I stated to you in this revert, if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated "often," not "always." And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like.

I noted in the #Nav boxes NO red links section above that I will likely be starting a WP:RfC on that particular red link matter. There might be other things to start a WP:RfC on regarding this guideline, since editors are coming here and adding/removing anything they want to/from this guideline as though it's not a WP:Guideline that should typically have WP:Consensus before any significant changes are made to it. Flyer22 (talk) 21:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Flyer, I am not at all clear what it is that you disagree with, here. The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that? It seems incredibly reasonable, and clearly consistent with what is said elsewhere in the guideline. There's no change, here, just a clarification. On that note, what on earth does "Do not remove red links unless ... there is no article section to validly redirect the topic (see WP:NOPAGE)" mean? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@Josh: To your second point, I think the clause about article sections means that a valid red link may be one where the target is a redirect to a section of an article where the notable subject is covered as part of a broader topic. That is the point of WP:NOPAGE. I have attempted to clarify the wording in the guideline. Feel free to tweak further as necessary, although – being a guideline – this point about redirects should probably remain in there unless discussed and consensus achieved to remove it. Of course, where the red link is a redirect, it's very easy to turn it blue by creating the redirect. – Wdchk (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being dim here, but I still have very little idea of you are trying to say. Your new wording literally didn't make sense- "Do not remove red links unless ... a redirect to a section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)." Also, given that this point was only just added by Flyer, there's no need to get consensus to remove it- I'd say we need consensus to add it. In any case, if it's to stay, it needs to be clearer. I'm sorry if this sounds like a silly request, but could you say in simple English when you believe redlinks should be removed? Josh Milburn (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

At this point I should let @Flyer22 speak for herself. My interpretation, however, was that the point about an article section being a valid target for a red link was already in the guideline, per this edit summary. So the sentence you're having a problem with is an attempt at clarification, first by Flyer22, then by me. It's not a substantive change to the guideline, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. Regarding clarity, I'll have to think further about that. Maybe someone else can help. – Wdchk (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm none the wiser. How can "an article section being a valid target for a red link"? If it's a redirect, it's not a redlink? Josh Milburn (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

J Milburn, I know that you and the IP have discussed this guideline before, and that the IP contacted you to weigh in on this latest matter. It seems that I don't fully share your and the IP's views of the WP:Red link guideline. I've explained above and here at the Yaoi talk page how I feel about the guideline. You stated, "The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that?" Yes, I partly disagree with that. I stated when reverting the IP, "obscurity is one of the things to consider; WP:Notability is clear that notability does not guarantee an article." And I stated above, "if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated 'often,' not 'always.' And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like." When removing red links, it is often the case that editors are predicting what will be created, and I don't see a problem with that if the editor is using common sense and is taking Wikipedia's notability guidelines into account. I do see a problem with editors simply adding red links because they want an article created, or are hoping some WP:Newbie, who has no idea how to appropriately apply Wikipedia's notability guidelines, will create it. Like I told the IP at the Yaoi talk page, we have more than one Wikipedia notability guideline, including Wikipedia:Notability (events). WP:Secondary sources covering a topic does not automatically mean that the topic is WP:Notable or that it should have its own Wikipedia article.

As for what the WP:NOPAGE aspect that I added (and Wdchk tweaked) means, it means what Wdchk stated it means. And it was already noted in the guideline by the "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name." part. I decided to make mention of it more explicit, especially since the IP had re-added the "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject." piece. The IP's edit on that matter made it seem as though the subject should automatically be an article; I wanted to make it clear that the subject might be better served as content placed in an existing article. Flyer22 (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)