Talk:LGBT rights opposition

Reasons for opposition

The page says "Such opposition can be motivated by (ethics,) religion, moral beliefs, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, sexualism, bigotry, political ideologies, or other factors."

On looking again at this list of reasons, I can see a number of issues.

The reasons given for opposing LGBT rights fall into three categories: first, opposition by reference to external systems of thought - religious, moral, political (and ethical); second, opposition rooted in the character of the person who opposes: homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, sexualism, bigotry; and third, "other factors".

"Biphobia" - this neologism has its own Wikipedia page, but the word may appear only in a single primary source - Ref. 1 of that page. This is the only evidence that biphobia is a separate phenomenon from homophobia.

"Sexualism" - this concept also has its own Wikipedia page, but a careful reading of the page shows that the second sense of the word (the one relevant here, "discrimination based on sexuality"), is a neologism that is not attributed to any of the page's references - the author might as well have made the word up. Ref. 1 refers to "sexual prejudice", Refs. 2 and 3 to "heterosexism". The content of Refs 1 and 2 can be searched on Amazon; Ref 3 is available in PDF form and can be searched; none of these includes the word "sexualism".

If we accept the term "sexualism", then homophobia, biphobia, and transphobia are examples of sexualism, rather than separate phenomena.

I expect most LGBT activists would also consider these phenomena to be examples of bigotry, rather than separate phenomena.

"Other reasons" seems to mean "anything I haven't thought of" rather than something that is documented.

The page was split out from Homosexuality and morality and deals almost exclusively with opposition to homosexual rights. The addition of the terms "biphobia", "transphobia", and "sexualism" appears to be a half-hearted attempt to generalise the page to cover the full range of the "LGBT" label without adding any substantive new content.

The misuse of tautology, and of neologisms that are not in widespread use, make the list akin to "oak, beech, quasi-oak, trees, treeoids, and other things".

Please could someone with appropriate expertise amend the page.

212.159.102.166 (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2013 (UTC) KJN

I more or less agree, so I have boldly removed some of the terms. If another editor disagrees, they will likely restore them and hopefully join this discussion. - MrX 16:20, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts...

Some pieces of text in the article seem to agree to certain types of opposition or at least use language that reads as if it does. Per example 'The driving force was the elimination of degeneracy at various levels' <- I added perceived in that sentence, or 'It is argued that the numbers of homosexuals eliminated was quite low' the word low makes it sound very troubling to me, it /could/ work if more text was to be added comparing the numbers to other WW2 statistics. But even then 10-30% of gays charged with being gay put into concentration camps seems /high/ to me!

The 'Religious reasons for opposition' sub states that Abrahamic religions do not support homosexual sex as if it where fact. Within the Christian churches there are opposing interpretations where homosexual sex is /not/ viewed as a sin. I'm unsure about Islam but I can imagine that it's mostly hadiths (='word' -> interpretations from Koran that are viewed as canon by most Muslims) that oppose homosexuality. I would propose making a clear separation of facts and interpretations (even if those are the most dominant interpretations) GizahNL (talk) 15:49, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

What about parents wanting their kids to have kids?

The core reason why parents oppose homosexuality is because they want their kids to have kids. Parents do not despise their lesbian daughters as much as they despise their gay sons. The reason for this is because a lesbian daughter can still have kids that are genetically theirs but gay males cannot have kids that are genetically theirs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.44.236.162 (talk) 20:14, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Many same-sex couples, including male couples, have children through surrogacy, adoption, etc. Please provide a source for your edit. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Article title

I think using the word "rights", especially in the title, is inherently biased. It implies that we already have all of these god-given rights and some angry people are trying to deny us those rights. Look at the second paragraph here: Abortion_debate#Terminology: "Appeals are often made in the abortion debate to the rights of the fetus, pregnant woman, or other parties. Such appeals can generate confusion if the type of rights is not specified (whether civil, natural, or otherwise) or if it is simply assumed that the right appealed to takes precedence over all other competing rights (an example of begging the question)." We have the same situation here, the existence of certain "rights" is already assumed in the article title. (Yes it's currently specified in the lead that we're talking about civil rights, but that's not the point.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 08:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Er, so what would you suggest in its place? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:59, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

If I had a suggestion I would have already offered it. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 17:28, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I take that back. I think the lead section makes it clear what the word "rights" refers to (laws, and possible laws).

Speaking of which, the lead section is a bit repetitive. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:12, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Reasons

@Lincean: I don't understand your objection to including "bigotry" as one possible motivation. We don't state that every person or organization shares all of these motivations, so the argument for not including bigotry would seem to be that no opposition to rights is motivated by bigotry, a thing that is patently untrue. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:02, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Roscelese: I do not see how it follows that just because something is not listed, that it makes it seem that no opposition is motivated by it. Exclusion from this list does not mean that it is not a reason.

Also, the use of the words "bigotry" or "bigot" are inherently value laden. Please see WP:LABEL, "bigot" is a contentious label, and it is a value judgement. Having it listed is presenting an opinion as a fact. Please see this essay for the distinction between fact and opinion.

Lincean (talk) 05:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

"Moral beliefs" is also a value word. I'm unconvinced by your argument that neutrality requires us only to include language that depicts LGBT rights opposition in a positive light, but if you think it's the language we're using to describe the view that's the problem, please propose an alternative, rather than removing the view entirely. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:08, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

"Moral beliefs" is not a value word because it is qualified by "beliefs." A belief can be true, false, or nonsensical (that is, if moral beliefs are all nonsense). It is a fact that people have beliefs, they may be right or wrong, but the belief is still there. My argument is not that "neutrality requires us only to include language that depicts LGBT rights opposition in a positive light" or anything like this. Please reread what I wrote. My point is to not state opinions as facts, as stated in WP:YESPOV:

Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."

And, to avoid a contentious label, see WP:LABEL. Therefore, I propose a change. We could remove "bigotry" or the whole sentence. Lincean (talk) 00:29, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Bigotry is an appropriate reason and it's perfectly factual. Bigotry is implicitly qualified by "beliefs" as well.- MrX 12:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

"Bigotry" is subjective, and a passes a value judgement. Even if "bigotry" is explicitly qualified by "beliefs" it is putting forth a class of beliefs whose nature is value dependent and so passes value. Unlike, say, "moral" which is a class whose title is not necessarily value dependent. Please see WP:LABEL. Lincean (talk) 04:19, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

It's also a fact that people are sometimes persuaded to opposed LGBT rights opposition due to bigotry. The article addresses this issue. This should be included in the text. The current wording says: "Such opposition can be motivated by religion, moral beliefs, homophobia, bigotry, political ideologies, or other reasons," not "Such opposition is motivated by religion, moral beliefs, homophobia, bigotry, political ideologies, or other reasons." [emphasis added, of course].

If you have a better way of phrasing the sentence, then that's fine. But don't just remove the word "bigotry" because you don't like it. – Zumoarirodoka ^(talk) 15:27, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

What people oppose what out of "bigotry" is a matter of opinion. I am not sure why you are pointing out what the wording is and what it is not, as the meaning of the text, that you pointed out, is not disputed here. Please read what I wrote. Lincean (talk) 04:16, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

So is your position that LGBT rights opposition is not motivated by bigotry? You have claimed it was an issue of language, but your recent comments suggest that you think this is unverifiable. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:51, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

My position is that we do not use words like "bigot" just like we do not use words such as "good" and "evil" as positively describing things. Lincean (talk) 03:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I think I must still be missing something about your position here. WP:LABEL says we should avoid labeling people, concepts, etc. with value labels, but we're not saying that LGBT rights opposition is bigotry or is always motivated by bigotry. Is your argument that the word "bigotry" (or "terrorist", or "cult", or "racism", to use other words from WP:LABEL) can never appear in the encyclopedia? Again, you seem to be arguing from the position that LGBT rights opposition is never motivated by bigotry, a position I think you'd have a hard time defending with reliable sources. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand why you wrote: "...but we're not saying that LGBT rights opposition is bigotry or is always motivated by bigotry." Please read what I wrote to Zumoarirodoka, this is not something that I am disputing. My argument is not that that "the word "bigotry" (or "terrorist", or "cult", or "racism", to use other words from WP:LABEL) can never appear in the encyclopedia." For I previously cited WP:YESPOV which includes this point:

Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."

From this and the rest of what it says, it is clear that you can cite opinions that have words like "bigot" in them. But opinions are to be described as opinions. Note also that I wrote:

My position is that we do not use words like "bigot" just like we do not use words such as "good" and "evil" as positively describing things. Lincean (talk) 03:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Note that I said "use words like 'bigot'", not "mention word like 'bigot.'" It clear that you can mention all sorts of words, such as in quoting someone. It is also clear that it is best to generally try to avoid using some words. Such as stating opinions as facts, value-laden language, contentious labels, etc.. Lincean (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

i just stumbled across this and wanted to drop a note. The sentence, "Such opposition can be motivated by religion, moral beliefs, homophobia, bigotry, political ideologies, or other reasons." appears in the WP:LEAD, and is not sourced. That could be OK, if there is sourced content in the body to support it. There is a section describing religious opposition to LGBT rights that is sourced, so that term is well founded. I see no clear discussion of the other 4 named motivations in the body of the article as it stands now. So ... from a policy/guideline standpoint, the list seems to violate WP:OR and WP:VERIFY and WP:LEAD and should be pared down to "religion" until sourced content is added to the body, to support their presence in the lead. (fwiw, isn't homophobia a kind of bigotry? it is unclear to me why both would be needed even after sourced content is introduced to the body) Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I think you make some good points here. Perhaps this sentience should be removed. Lincean (talk) 03:00, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment can the word "animus" be used (as it has been a subject of discussion in the US Supreme Court as to whether denying same-sex marriage to LGBT couples can be defended by anything other than animus towards the couples as a minority group) ? -- Aronzak (talk) 02:10, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The body of the article contains ample content that is aptly summarized as "bigotry" For example, under Opposition in different countries>United States>History, the passage concerning Anita Bryant is an example of text book bigotry. Homophobia can have bigotry at its roots, or can be based on bona fide fear, or self-loathing, but the terms are not interchangeable. Nor is 'animosity' interchangeable with 'bigotry'. - MrX 03:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The use of "bigotry" violates WP:NPOV, see the above discussion. The example that you cited is your opinion, not a fact. Lincean (talk) 20:39, 24 May 2015 (UTC)