Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michigan State Miracle

Michigan State Miracle

Michigan State Miracle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

2015 Michigan State vs Michigan football game (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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WP:NOTNEWS, basically.

Indidual College football plays (or the games they were in) can be notable:

• Kick Six
• Miracle at Michigan
• Hail Flutie
• The Play (Stanford vs. California)

and so on.

This may become one of them. It certainly has plenty of media coverage at present. But it is too soon to for that to be verified. Shirt58 (talk) 09:41, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Please note Part of Shirt58's argument is that this article was created "too soon" to be considered notable, however he has also included the Kick Six page in his argument for deletion. The Kick Six article was created on December 2nd, 2013, exactly 2 days after that event occurred. Thanks! Stubbleboy 04:56, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has bee n included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. Human3015^TALK  11:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Human3015^TALK  11:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Human3015^TALK  11:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Delete for now or redirect to 2015 Michigan State Spartans football team#Michigan. This article was created about 6 hours after the game ended. College football games are dealt with appropriately in season articles on the teams involved. Individual college games only warrant stand-alone articles if they are shown, through the test of time, to be historically significant to the sport. It is simply TOOSOON to determine whether this game will achieve that level of significance. Cbl62 (talk) 14:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Keep I am the creator of the article. I have been a longtime Wikipedia member, and I plan on improving the article even further. Why so quick to delete? To say that this play isn't relevant and unworthy of its own page is rather obtuse in my opinion. The chances of the opponent winning this game on the last play were .02%. This is a long time rivalry (See: Michigan–Michigan State football rivalry) and coach Jim Harbaugh's first season as Michigan's head coach. With this loss, he became the 7th Michigan coach in a row to lose to Michigan State their first year. Michigan had combined to defeat its past three opponents by a score of 97-0, and were actually favored by 6 1/2 points at kickoff. This is also noteworthy considering Michigan State at the time was undefeated (6-0) and ranked 7th in the country while Michigan (5-1) had already lost a non-conference game (Utah, 6-0, #4 in country as of kickoff) and was ranked 12th. I appreciate having the opportunity to make my case and share this information with everyone, and no hard feelings if the consensus reached is delete. I am a little surprised though, considering it is obvious this play will be talked about for many years to come. Thanks! Stubbleboy 16:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment This article is terribly written, and needs a substantial rewrite. I am not advocating for or against its deletion, though I will say that a better redirect target would be Michigan–Michigan State football rivalry#2010s. Primefac (talk) 17:41, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Response: Primfac, I appreciate you assisting by editing the article, and for your participation in this discussion. However, calling the article that I have spent time on creating and editing terribly written is hardly productive or politically correct. For obvious reasons, your comment could very well hurt someone's feelings if they were more sensitive then myself. I suggest that you take time to review the policy Wikipedia:Be kind and in the future please consider taking a different approach with any criticism. If you read my previous comment, you can very well see that I stated I planned on improving the article even further. Don't be a jerk. Thanks! Stubbleboy 18:24, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

You are correct, I was too harsh in my criticism of the article. My apologies. Primefac (talk) 18:26, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I accept and appreciate your apology. Thanks. Stubbleboy 18:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Either redirect to Michigan–Michigan State football rivalry or userfy - This article could use a lot of work on it, though I feel like it's too early for it to warrant a page as of now, since we're not sure if it will become a "legendary" play like the aforementioned ones. I think userfying it to the article creator's userspace and let them develop it until then might be the best course of action. Zappa24Mati 18:05, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Another page about the same subject was created earlier today at 2015 Michigan State vs Michigan football game. Zappa24Mati 18:06, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Since this AFD is about the subject itself (and not the specific article) I have added it to the discussion. Primefac (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Can't we just combine any helpful information from the 2015 Michigan State vs Michigan football game page into the Michigan State Miracle page then Redirect? Stubbleboy 18:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Keep A significant event in a significant sport. Considering the length and depth of this historic rivalry, I don't think it takes a crystal ball to see that there will soon be more RS discussions of this event than anyone can reasonably endure. SteveStrummer (talk) 19:42, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Delete the article on the game - The game's entire notability is for it's role in the rivalry -- better covered in the rivalry article -- and for this single play. Delete the article on the play without prejudice toward recreation if adequate sources to demonstrate notability can be found later. I think there will be such sources, but it may be too soon to say. cmadler (talk) 20:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with the recommendation to either redirect to Michigan–Michigan State football rivalry or userfy, until the play's individual notability (or the game's significance for the season) can be properly defended with external citations. This may very well become a notable play, soon or by December. jFiander (talk) 20:38, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Historically, this event was the first of it's kind. Never has a leading team's punt been blocked in the final seconds, recovered by the opposing team, then ran back for the game winning touchdown as the clock expired. We have an article for the Kick Six event during the 78th Iron Bowl (also a rivalry) which has a section for Coaches and Players, A game recap, and even a Scoring summary. How are any of those sections relevant to the event that happened? Here is your answer, they aren't, and this article could easily include such filler. I'm actually starting to wonder had I have just waited and done all the work myself before creating the article if there would have even been a need for a deletion discussion. There will eventually be a Wikipedia article on this historic event, so I'm not sure why deleting it now would be productive. Stubbleboy 20:51, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• There is nothing historically significant about this game, and of course leading teams have lost in the final seconds of games before, including the circumstances described. And, as far as I am concerned, someone can nominate "Kick Six" for AfD, too. If Wikipedia editors have to invent a cutesy title for the game or borrow one from fan blogs, that's usually a sign that the game probably does not meet our criteria for a stand-alone article. Merely being an exciting game is not enough; there are hundreds of exciting CFB games every season, and dozens are decided in the closing seconds. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Note: I have proposed to merge 2015 Michigan State vs Michigan football game with Michigan State Miracle. If you wish to take part in the discussion, you can find it here. Thank you. Stubbleboy 00:13, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Stubbleboy, both of these pages are up for deletion. A merge request at this point is useless if they both get deleted/redirected. Primefac (talk) 00:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Does this really even have a name though, have sources called it the "Michigan State Miracle". Wikipedia can't create the name itself or people in the future will think it was actually called that. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 02:15, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Originally, the Kick Six article was coined Kick Bama Kick. Michigan head coach Mark Dantonio stated the name of the play was "Rangers: Mission 4-10", in the same article that is entitled "Mark Dantonio gave Michigan State's miracle play a name." Stubbleboy 05:09, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

• Delete Cannot possibly know if WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE exists one day, or even weeks after a game to meet WP:GNG. At this point, a lot of news is just WP:ROUTINE coverage of the game that was going to happen no matter what the outcome was. No point merging existing sparse, mostly unsourced article, when 2015 Michigan Wolverines football team already has comprehensive converge of the game, and can be borrow from there if needed for Michigan–Michigan State football rivalry or 2015 Michigan State Spartans football team.—Bagumba (talk) 04:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
• Delete - Per Bagumba's rationale immediately above. WikiProject College Football has evolved a very high standard for a stand-alone article about an individual regular season game, i.e., the game must have significance to the history, culture and lore of college football, the coverage must exceed routine post-game coverage that all modern Division I FBS games receive on the Sunday and Monday after the game is played per WP:ROUTINE, and the coverage must be continuing over time per WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE and WP:NOTNEWS. We are an encyclopedia, not a sports magazine or alamanc. And we do provide an alternative venue for coverage of individual regular season games in the format of our individual team season articles, e.g., 2015 Michigan Wolverines football team and 2015 Michigan State Spartans football team. Any non-duplicate content that should be merged to those two season articles (with proper attribution, if copy-pasted). Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:57, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• I believe the proper source of action is to first keep this article and then discuss merging with 2015 Michigan State vs Michigan football game. One of them should be kept, not both. But before the merge discussion can be completed, the AFD needs to be procedurally closed in my opinion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:50, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Merge is a possible outcome of any AfD, so I think it saves the overhead by just continuing with the discussion here, instead of closing, and rehashing similar discussion. Moreover, there are !votes to delete both articles (they are both in this nomination)—Bagumba (talk) 18:36, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Keep This play (and game) is one of the biggest come-from-behind victories in college football and it is easy to find sources that prove its notability. [1][2][3] None of these sources are "routine coverage" and it seems like this has moved from a routine football game into the national headlines. I would agree that more detail would need to be added and the article might need to be renamed. Natg 19 (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Merge I agree with much of what's been said already about these two articles. At this point, I think that merging the two articles into one about the game itself is the simplest way forward. The play itself doesn't have a name that I know of but is quickly becoming quite notable. Making the article about the game solves this problem and leaves room for a future article about the play to be created in the future. Adam Kriesberg (talk) 20:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Is your !vote a "keep" vote then? Most of the editors above want to delete both the articles, as they believe this game (and play) is non-notable. Natg 19 (talk) 23:51, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Merge to 2015 Michigan State Spartans football team. Personally, I think that, like the Kick Six, this game is actually a prime possible candidate for a individual game article in the future. But, 48 hours after the game is simply WP:TOOSOON to even approximate a guess as to whether or not this game is going to have the sort of long-term effect or lasting notability it would need to sustain an individual game article. Let's wait at least 6 months, and revisit this at a later date. For right now, let's simply cover it in the context of the 2015 Michigan & Michigan State season articles, and monitor the situation for further developments. Ejgreen77 (talk) 00:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
• Shirt58, I need you to nominate Kick Six for violating NPA. And I'm going to block you for mentioning it in the first place. Drmies (talk) 01:01, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, are you sure you have the right discussion? What does the Kick Six article have to do with this AFD exactly, and who is Shirt58? Stubbleboy 02:39, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Look up at the nomination. Drmies (talk) 14:14, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• Redirect to an anchor point in Michigan–Michigan State Rivalry#Notable games and reproduce content in the individual team season pages. As Dirtlawyer says, at the moment it's just a wild play in the news, and WP:NOTNEWS covers this; we can't be making new articles every time there is a highlight reel finish. I would say that merging is the right option for two reasons: because the play will be notable in the context of the teams' rivalry, but cannot be said to be stand-alone notable, and; because there is no extra context or aftermath of note to bring the extent of the article beyond a single paragraph describing the play (cf. the 2013 Iron Bowl, which had immediate championship implications, etc.). Aspirex (talk) 06:36, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
• Keep. The Kick Six page was created days after the actual event, and it got the same amount of coverage this game is getting. I don't think it's too soon to determine whether or not it's notable. ~jcm 03:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing

Comment: the creator of this article, Stubbleboy, has left notifications on the talk pages of about 40 Wikipedia editors that he has identified to be Michigan State alumni, soliciting comment here. It appears he made no effort to similarly solicit feedback from Michigan alumni or other editors with a general interest in college football. This seems like an obvious case of Wikipedia:Canvassing (scale, audience). Jweiss11 (talk) 03:52, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I warned the user about canvassing, and I trust the closer wasn't going to merely count !votes anyways.—Bagumba (talk) 04:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Response I hope you also took the time to actually read the message I left on their talk pages before accusing me of any wrong doing.

Hello! There is an article that has been nominated for deletion regarding the Michigan State football team. I noticed you were an alumni, so I thought I would let you know in case you have any interest in participating with the discussion. If so, please just click on the Title as I have linked it straight to the page's deletion review. If you wish to see the article itself, it is titled Michigan State Miracle. Any thoughts, ideas, or edits that would help improve the page itself would also be appreciated!

I've actually been contributing to Wikipedia since it's creation in 2001, so I know the rules. All I did was inform Michigan State Alumni user's that there was a discussion they may be interested in taking part in. By no way was I ever trying to sway their personal opinion in one way or another. In fact, the first Michigan State alumni who did show up commented that he would not support the page. Thanks! Stubbleboy 17:22, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: Issue addressed on Bagumba's talk page. Now informing University of Michigan alumni as well of this discussion. Regardless of the school your userbox states you attended (which is completely unverifiable and irrelevant), it makes the event no less significant then it actually was. Thanks! Stubbleboy 17:57, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there was ill will on your part. The message was fine, the only concern was the limited distribution list, which you have addressed. No harm, no foul.—Bagumba (talk) 18:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, alumni is a plural. I don't know if that's a blockable offense. Drmies (talk) 00:56, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Stubbleboy, I did read your message, and you should note that I qualified my accusation of canvassing above on the dimensions of scale and audience, not message. Your message is indeed neutral, but the scale of your posting is excessive and your initial target audience was partisan. I'm not looking to make a big deal about this, but you should probably refrain from this sort of alumni-targeted posting, even if it's balanced, particularly on college sports topics. A quick review of Wikipedia:Canvassing would be helpful. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:14, 20 October 2015 (UTC)