Talk:Abdullah al-Harari

Muslims in Poland and Eastern Europe: Widening the European Discourse on Islam is a reliable source

McKhan the book mentions aicp.org in one footnote. To say that it cites it extensively is untrue. Furthermore, it does not do so for the claim that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

Also you mischaracterized my edit in the explanation of your edit. I removed the word "renowned" and only cited that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

I am reverting my edit. Please do not remove reliably sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZaynfromNY (talk • contribs) 18:51, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

NPOV

NPOV is obvious. User "Aicp1" (abbreviation for "Association of Islamic Charitable Projects", have a look at al-habash), as a loyal and faithful follower of Shaykh al-Harari, has written an enconium. "He is the great 'alim", "the prious worshipper" "He memorized by heart", "his intelligence and wonderful memory" etc. ... does not look encyclopedic at all. --89.56.175.238 23:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I didnt make those changes (another user did). Anyhow the article just relays the biography of the Shaykh.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aicp1 7:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I just took your username into account. It seemed obvious, to assume you and 66.240.41.13 to be the same person. Please accept my apology, if I were wrong. But I think your removal of NPOV-message to be revealing. You did not change the article to correct the problem and your argument "just relays the biography" doesn't help, as long as you don't give us any reliable references. --89.56.135.178 15:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an advertisement mostly quoting from AICP's own web-sit and sources. It is NOT NPOV

The others editors are right that this IS, in fact, written like an advertisement as well as quoting from AICP's own web-site and other sources. McKhan 13:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? More than half of that information is not even included on AICP's website. Of course some people find it amusing to slander him and AICP although all his books and publications have approval from Al-Azhar. Aicp1

I, exactly, know what I am talking about. This is Wikipedia NOT Al-Azhar. Though, your claim being "approved" by Al-Azhar has been disputed. You have provided NO NEUTRAL / IMPARTIAL / ACADEMIC / INDEPENDENT references, quotes and research, as per Wikipedia guidelines to substantiate your "claims" in that article. Consequently, I will request you to NOT to remove those tags. Thanks. McKhan 13:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, don't remove the tags. Thanks

Please, don't remove the tags. McKhan 13:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Aicp1 took the text from here. = Reverted

Aicp1 has been in the violation of several Wikipedia guidelines (NPOV, Original Research .etc) by literally copying and pasting from here, a web-site managed and owned by one of the AICP's leader in North America, to Wikipedia as his own. McKhan 08:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Your fight against AICP (the organization) is quite entertaining. And also you should know I didnt add all that information to this article, but a user by the name of Mutakalim did. Once again, it shows that you know hardly anything. Anyways, fight your e-battle... if that is what really matters to you. AICP1

I find it sad when someone thinks that other people are stupid. Al-Ahbash's / Habashies's /AICP's headquarter is in Pennsylvania. 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) hails from Pennsylvania. And there is highly liklikhood that Mutakallim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) are the same. Having said that, let's see what Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did. Rather than trying to follow the Wikipedia guidelines, Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) helped his comrade,Mutakallim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and / or 66.240.41.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) from Pennsylvania, in this copy and paste job. Here is the evidence.

And when I pointed out what has been done is in the violation of several Wikipeda guidelines, Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) turned around and did what Aicp1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been doing quite consistently to sanatize his group on Wikipedia: delibrately removed the link (s) and content which wasn't pro-AICP from this page AND from Al-Ahbash page. Evidence is here and here. And NO, I am NOT fighting anybody here. This is Wikipedia which aspires to have NPOV and therefore I am just helping Wikipedia NOT to fall prey to anybody's agenda. McKhan 06:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

dont remove info

stop reverting my work..ill cite it soon Baboon43 (talk) 04:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

In order for someone to hold the position of a Professor, that individual has to be on the payroll of that university along-with the educational activities which a Professor undertakes. As far as my knowledge is concerned, Mr. Harrari ONLY studied at the Lebanese affiliated entity of Al-Azhar (as he did in Saudi Arabia) in Lebannon but he was NEVER a Professor on the payroll of Al-Azhar nor he ever conducted ANY sort of educational activities on the premises of Al-Azhar. On these grounds, it is justified to revert your edit unless you provide a NEUTRAL and VERIFIABLE source for your statement. McKhan (talk)

based on your reverts it looks like your not looking for verifiable or neutral sources but just to revert at will with ip's...i have gone through the history of this page. Baboon43 (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for adding the source. Let us read it together the source you have provided to substantiate your claim. Shall we? Here we go:

Al-Ahbash

The Association of Islamic Philanthropic Projects (Jam’iyyat al-Mashari’ al-Khairiyya al-Islamiyya) is a comparatively moderate Islamist force supported by Syria as a counterweight to radical Islamist forces in Lebanon. It is a Sufi movement that devoutly follows the teachings of its founder Sheikh Abdallah Ibn Muhammad Ibn Yusuf al-Hirari al-Shi’bi al-Abdari, also known as Abdallah al-Habashi. Al-Habashi, born in 1920 in al-Hirara, Ethiopia, migrated to Beirut in the 1950s and became a lecturer at al-Azhar University’s Lebanese branch. His school of thought mixes elements of Sunni and Shi'a theological doctrines with Sufi spiritualism...accept the legitimacy of the Imam Ali (the Shi’a doctrine of legitimacy) and of his sons Hassan and Hussein; uphold the teachings of Hussein's son, Zayn al-Abidin....22

Your source CLEARLY states "lecturer" NOT Professor. Please, make sure to correct that.

I just find it quite ironic that "In August 2001 the president of the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced that al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and unislamic in its thinking.”

Furthermore, as per (Islamic Science University of Malaysia, "They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement....Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

that has nothing to do with what i added so stick to one talk page...it doesnt matter what al azhar says all what i posted states is that he was a professor at al azhar and no i will not change it to lecturer because professor and lecturer is the something. and stop quoting opponents of ahbash as they are irrelevant thank you. Baboon43 (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Lecturer vs. Professor

I am afraid there is a slight distinction between a Professor and Lecturer. Generally speaking, a professor - usually - is someone who has a higher academic level degree (i.e. doctorate degree - Ph.D) and a lecturer could be anyone who gives a lecture regardless of the degree. Even the Wikipedia has its own dedicated pages for Professor and Lecturer. Since your source CLEARLY identifies Mr. Harriri (without even mentioning his degrees, his tenure or the subjects he taught), thus, the title of Professor should NOT and must NOT be used. I am asking you to correct it as you are the one who inserted that statement in that page. IF you will NOT correct it voluntarily and would rather resort to an edit-war then it will be a tantamount to twisting the very source which you introduced by yourself. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

no not only was he a lecturer he was also a licensed shaykh which makes him a professor at the university here is the source. http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/al-ahbash.html Baboon43 (talk) 15:24, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for another source which clarifies further that he was not a Professor. Let us stop twisting and bending the sources. Here is what your recent source states WITHOUT even mentioning that he was a Professor, "He settled in Beirut in 1950, and was licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon.[28]"

*[28]. See interview with 'Abd al-Rahman al-Habashi, son of Shaykh Habashi and president of the Ahbash in Australia, in ibid., 32-34. See also al-Shira', 27 July 1992, 30-3 1

It NOWHERE states that he was a Professor but "licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." FYI: In August 2001 the president of the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced that al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and unislamic in its thinking.”

Under the light of your recent source, you are more than welcome to add the following statement:

"Al-Harari was also licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon."

Thank you. McKhan (talk)

abdullah's own website states he was a regular lecturer therefore a professor and your al azhar statement is irrelevant because wikipedia is an encylopedia not a newspaper for current events..by the way dont mix up ahbash the group and abdullah the leader they are not the same..one is an organization the other is a person. http://www.shaykhabdullah.com/biography/ Baboon43 (talk) 16:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

AICP and/or Ahbash (or Al-Ahbash) are synonymous to each other as the AICP is front not-for-profit organization of the Ahbash, who are the followers of Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi, thus, there is no "mixing" on my part. Under the light of both of your sources (The World Almanac of Islamism: 2011 and Hamzeh, A. Nizar; Dekmejian, R. Hrair (1996). "A Sufi Response to Political Islamism: Al-Ahbash of Lebanon". International Journal of Middle East Studies (Beirut, Lebanon: American University of Beirut) 28: 217–229. doi:10.1017/S0020743800063145. Retrieved 2009-04-10.), "Al-Harari was also licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." is the MOST ACCURATE and NEUTRAL statement. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

i would like to know what your problem is with aicp and its leader..reading through the history you were reverting sourced edits by your many socks so since you have been caught i would like an explanation and no what you suggested is not neutral or accurate my post stays the way it is unless you have a valid reason. wikipedia is not the place to bring personal vendettas..we are here to be professional and edit articles without being bias.Baboon43 (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Let me reiterate one more time: Apart from the information which I provided in the above lines (which you "discredit" quite vehemently as the "opponents" of Ahbash), your first source identifies Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi as a lecturer (without quoting his degrees, tenure or subjects he taught) and the other one indicates that he "was licensed as a shaykh by al-Azhar University's branch in Lebanon." I regret if you don't want to correct your statement as per the sources you provided by yourself. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

let me quote " upon the request of the Director of Al-”Azhar in Lebanon, he lectured in at-Tawhid to the students there" so ther the subject has been mentioned at this source http://www.shaykhabdullah.com/biography/.Baboon43 (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

It is quite apparent that you just want to present Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Habashi as a Professor (and then at Al-Azhar) to boost his credibility in the eyes of Wikipedia readers regardless the fact that even your current source indicates that "he lectured" (which is very much vague and ambiguous, specially, without giving the detail about his tenure and whether he was paid for his lectures or not) but once again fails to provide ANY indication that he was ever a Professor at the Al-Azhar in Lebanon. Given that the control of the content presented on http://www.shaykhabdullah.com is in the hands of Ahbash / AICP, it is NOT far-fetched that they may insert the word Professor on that very page which you are using as a source. It is all about marketing. Isn't it?

I just cannot help but to quote a REAL Professor. Here is what Professor Tariq Ramadan has to say about the Ahbash / AICP:

"...we may mention the secretarian group, the Ahbash, which originated in Lebanon and has its European base in Switzerland (Lausanne), while being active in Europe, the United States and Africa. Often calling themselves the "Islamic Benevolent Association," adherents carry on a permanent double discourse: to Western questioners, they claim to support the emancipation of women and laicism to oppose the "fundamentalists" (all the issues they know are sensitive and useful for getting them recognized). However, within Muslim communities, they carry on an extremely intransigent and closed discourse, usually treating most of the principal Muslim ulama as kuffar *by which they mean "unbeliever,' "impious people"). They base their teachings on interpretations recognized as deviant by all other schools of thought and all other scholars of note (for example, their singular understanding of the meaning of the name of God, or their assertion that the Qur'anic Text was interpreted by the angel Gabriel, or the practice of praying to the dead).[43] Their approach on very specific points of doctrine (such as those we have referred to) is hostile and usually violent. [44]" Page 29

Footnotes:

"43. Behind the smokescreen of very open ideas about women, the reality is less rosy: a man may contract a temporary marriage with a woman without telling her that this is his intention (the marriage may last only a few days since this was the intention, even though unexpressed, of the "husband"), and adultery with a woman "unbeliever" is considered only a minor sing because she is not a Muslim. In reality, the entire discourse about ethics and social behavior is based on this distinction between "Muslims" (only the Ahbash) and others (the kuffar, understood by the members of this sect as "unbelievers" in the worst possible sense). The founder, al-Harari (who lived in Lebanon till his death), pronounced judicial opinions (fatwa) for his disciples in which he maintained that lying, stealing, and even killing a kafir, an unbeliever, are minor sins."

"44. Their eruption on the Lebanese scene has caused some damage: they were behind some violent brawls and some killing in mosques. Not recognizing scholars of other parties as Muslims, since they are explicityly kuffar, they have gone as far as to eliminate them even if they were recognized scholars. Some of their leaders, members of the Lebanese parliament, have frequently praised the [late] Syrian president Hafes al-Asad and did not hesitate to describe him as a "saint" at the time of the accidental death of his eldest son. The tested strategy of Hafes al-Asad is well-known--to rely on secretarian groups, in the forefront of which is his own clan, the Alawites, to cause divisions and sow trouble among his opponents. The significant financial resources available to the Ahbash in the West are due to foreign support from Lebanon and, without the shadow of a doubt, from the Syrian regime." Page: 234

Title: Western Muslims and the future of Islam

Author: Tariq Ramadan

Edition: illustrated

Publisher: '''Oxford University Press US''', 2004

ISBN: 019517111X, 9780195171112

Length: 272 pages

and

Thomas Pierret, the author of "Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context" goes even further and states under '"Ideological spider webs"': "At first sight, devices such as live interactive lessons or voice chat groups seem to encourage debates within the movement, but, on the contrary, close examination reveals that these instruments are primarily used by the leadership to increase its ideological control on their followers and to attract new devotees. Similarly, if one checks the AICP’s unofficial e-forums (www.talkaboutislam.com), one discovers that they function as ideological spider webs. Nothing points to the fact that these websites, which only present themselves as being “Islamic,” are actually part of the Ahbash’s cyber network. For instance, they are not related to the official websites by any hypertext link. Therefore, the random visitor is normally unaware that he or she is exposed to a set of selected opinions through carefully controlled debates. Firstly, zealous participants frequently post chapters of books edited in Lebanon by the AICP, but without any reference to the author or the editor. Secondly, veteran members answer questions concerning fiqh (jurisprudence) and reprimand novices whose religious knowledge is considered “deviant.” Thirdly, a team of regulators supervise the discussions and are in charge of censoring the Ahbash who are too keen to use takfir (excommunication) —since such a stance is considered a mark of extremism by most of the Sunnis—but above all of eliminating most of the messages posted by participants of Salafi persuasion. Ideological hegemony is thus achieved by the creation of a neo-traditionalist virtual space in which they assess very critically the ideas of leading Islamic personalities such as Amr Khalid, Khalid al-Jundi and Yusuf al-Qaradawi."

Their "spider webs" includes but not limited to web-sites built under the "Islamic" or "Muslim" sounding domain names like http://www.sunna.info, http://www.sounah.info,http://www.2mfm.com, http://www.qiblah.us/, http://talkaboutislam.com/, http://forumislam.com/, http://mouhammad.org/, http://www.aicp.de/, http://www.aicp.ca/,http://www.icpa.org.au/, http://www.spearssports.org.au/, http://www.amislam.com/, http://www.alsunna.org, http://www.aicp.org, http://www.aicpmultimedia.org,http://habashies.blogspot.com, http://www.alamanah.nsw.edu.au, http://al-ahbash.org, http://truesalafi.com, http://asha3ira.com, http://maturidi.com, http://jawaaher.com,http://safeena.org and more.

Alas! Wikipedia is on the list of their potential "spider webs" too. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

Im not trying to boost anyone's credibility but only mentioning academic sources..Ahbash doesnt seem to be into marketing as the academic Thomas says that they make websites without mentioning their group so does that sound like marketing to you? Thomas also says that ahbash are tradionalists so do you disagree with the same academic your sourcing?by the way even though its OFF TOPIC whom you call a "Professor" is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and the spider webs you listed are off topic can you stick to the topic here and not rave about other things or are you trying to convince someone other than me on this talk page? Baboon43 (talk) 18:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I have reviewed the sources over and over again and the label "Professor" is NOT supported by ANY of them. In fact, the word "Professor" is NOWHERE to be found nor mentioned in those sources. As far as Tariq Ramdan is concerned, he (whether you like it or not) IS a bona-fide Professor. Even the Wikipedia (along-with other VERIFIABLE sources e.g. The Guardian, The Washington Post, Oxford University identify him as a PROFESSOR) states, "He is also a Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies in the Faculty of Oriental Studies at Oxford University. He advocates the study and re-interpretation of Islamic texts, and emphasizes the heterogeneous nature of Western Muslims....Tariq Ramadan studied Philosophy and French literature at the Masters level and holds a PhD in Arabic and Islamic studies from the University of Geneva. He also wrote a PhD dissertation on Friedrich Nietzsche, entitled Nietzsche as a Historian of Philosophy." Tariq Ramadan is NOT even remotely related to Muslim Brotherhood's ideology. In fact, he is far from it, thus, your argument that his views should NOT be taken ON ITS OWN ACADEMIC MERIT and be discarded as he is the grandson of the founder of Muslim Brotherhood is just irrational and illogical. Thomas Pierret (another bona-fide Professor with a Ph.D in Political and Social Sciences at Sciences but NOT in Arabic and Islamic Studies) does NOT consider the Ahbash as "traditionalist" (which does NOT refer to mainstream Sunnis) but NEO-TRADITIONALIST (Please, see here or here for the definition). Had it not for the sake of marketing and to use Wikipedia as a potential spider web by/of the Ahbash / AICP in a sanitized way on Wikipedia, you wouldn't have been spending your time insisting and arguing on including / incorporating each and every favorable word (i.e Professor) written for / by the Ahbash / AICP (or other academics) and discarding anything and everything else as written by the "opponents" of Ahbash / AICP. Thank you.

i had to use my own words so professor is not bad to refer to a regular lecturer at the university..enough with the ramadan stuff it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing..if you dont believe me on thomas calling ahbash traditional you can email him yourself would u like me to provide his email? are you accusing me of having an agenda on wikipedia? i could say the same about you but i dont take personal cheap shots towards others. Baboon43 (talk) 05:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

None of your sources indicate that Shaykh was a regular lecturer and the designation of a "Professor" is a tantamount to misrepresenting the sources you provided by yourself. What is so ironic that you are the one who makes the edit and then provide the sources (upon my insistence) by yourself and when I try to correct them, you simply turn the tables and misrepresent or discredit them by yourself. Please, remember that all the edits you have been making to Al-Ahbash page and other Wikipedia pages are available to others. Aside from the personal e-mail correspondence between you and Thomas Pierret, I would like to invite you to read both of his sources ("Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context" and "al-Aḥbāsh") and you will see that you will NOT find him using the term "traditionalist" but "neo-traditionalist" which does NOT confer the clout of mainstream Sunnis to the AICP / Ahbash by default. Should you like then I will be more than happy to provide you with the e-mail addresses of Muslim scholars like Dr. Tariq Ramdan, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqui and Dr. Ahmad Sakr. Thank you. McKhan (talk)

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