Talk:Algiers expedition (1541)

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RfC

I launch a Request for comment about the Algiers regency's flag in 1541. --Panam2014 (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

According to others academic sources, the flag was different:

1. Alexandre Rang, Histoire d'Aroudj et de Khaïr-ed-din. « le déploiement d'un grand drapeau national formé de trois bandes de soie, rouge, verte et jaune, et orné de croissant d'argent » [1]
2. Nadir Assari, Alger: des origines à la régence turque. «  A l'époque turque, le drapeau d'Alger était formé de trois bandes de soie rouge, verte et jaune.  » [2]
3. Marius Bernard, L'Algérie qui s'en va. « Rien n'y manque, pas même la longue hampe où flotta si longtemps l'insolent drapeau de la régence avec ses trois bandes horizontales, jaune en bas, rouge en haut, vert au milieu. » [3]
4. Sander Rang,Ferdinand Denis,Jean-Michel Venture de Paradis, Fondation de la régence d'Alger: histoire des Barberousse, « ; c'était du haut de ses vastes terrasses sur lesquelles flottait l'étendard rouge, jaune et vert ». [4]
5. Mouloud Gaïd : L'Algerie sous les Turcs, p.58 : « Le grand drapeau d'Alger, formé de trois bandes de soie, rouge, verte, jaune, se déploya majestueusement au-dessus de la porte »"

--Panam2014 (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

*Support(Summoned by bot)I am fine with the flag being added to the infobox. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 20:50, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

See also my tp. I have decided that having no image and a footnote, as described by Panam2014 below, is better. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 22:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Actual flag of the US.

Flag of the US betwen 1777 and 1795

• I'm also fine with the flag being added to the infobox. The majority of the sources cited above must be discarded for two reasons:
  • the flag they describe is not the one used in 1541, but the one used later. It's like trying to impose the actual US flag for some thing that happened between 1777 and 1795.
  • According to WP:AGE MATTERS, "newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt".

Moreover, Mouloud Gaïd has based his work on Algiers expedition on Galibert's work (first published in 1844), so WP:AGE MATTERS applies too in this case. --Ms10vc (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

In a nutshell:

1. Alexandre Rang, Histoire d'Aroudj et de Khaïr-ed-din: Definitively not an academic source, but an outdated source according to WP:AGE MATTERS (published in 1837) ==> [5]
2. Nadir Assari: does not concern the flag used in 1541
3. Marius Bernard, L'Algérie qui s'en va: Definitively not an academic source, but an outdated source according to WP:AGE MATTERS (published in 1887) ==> [6]
4. Sander Rang, Ferdinand Denis, Jean-Michel Venture de Paradis, Fondation de la régence d'Alger: histoire des Barberousse: Definitively not an academic source, but an outdated source according to WP:AGE MATTERS (published in 1837) ==> [7]
5. Mouloud Gaïd, L'Algerie sous les Turcs, p.58: Uses as a primary reference Léon Galibert's L'Algérie: ancienne et moderne, which is definitively not an academic source, but an outdated source according to WP:AGE MATTERS (first published in 1844) ==> [8]

--Ms10vc (talk) 21:18, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

The facts are clear: the sources I have proposed are still considered secondary, they can not be reclassified into tertiary. So from this moment on, it is not possible to pretend that from the moment when there are more recent sources, they are more reliable. Thus, if an historian publishes an alternative theory after another historian, one can not say that one or the other is more right. On the other hand, because we have 10 sources and half of them are opposed, we can not defend one view rather than the other. So just do not put any flag and add a "footnote" to the article of the flags of Algeria to explain. @Jean-Jacques Georges and Alaspada: --Panam2014 (talk) 20:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The rule est cristal clear. Once again, according to WP:AGE MATTERS, "newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt". So please stick to rule. Your personal opinion is charming but we are not interested with personal opinions. This source ==> "Houari Touati, Aux origines du drapeau algérien : une histoire symbolique, Editions Zaytūn, 2014, p. 38" is a recent one, centered on the subject and written by an academic specialist. Best regards. --Ms10vc (talk) 06:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

@L3X1: Can I transfer you the relevant pages of the book of Houari Touati? You can read this article about it ==> [9]. Touati is one of the best specialists of the Maghrebian Middle Age ==> [10]. --Ms10vc (talk) 07:16, 26 July 2017 (UTC)