Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of gaming platforms: Difference between revisions

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Comparison of gaming platforms

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While the PROD for the article didn't really contain an argument why the list was unencyclopedic, I believe the article is listcruft with no clear encyclopedic purpose. The article was created to push PC gaming and NPOV issues can't really be fixed without disproportionate effort to expand and maintain. The stats surrounding PCs and other operating systems are far more nebulous than those of the other consoles, making it extremely difficult to be accurate. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 23:57, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. -- ferret (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This article and discussion have been linked to by the PC Master Race subreddit, with over 10,000 upvotes. --Pres N 12:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Does not serve an encyclopedic purpose. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 00:31, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you mind explaining why? Does this article "serve an encyclopedic purpose": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software ? Encyclopedias I know are full of tables with comparisons. Do you think gaming platforms aren't relevant? Real Joe Cool (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a sufficient counterargument, regardless of what they think, the articles should be considered on their own merits. While asking why is a legitimate question, it should stop there, without bringing the debate onto other articles._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:17, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per nom. Sergecross73 msg me 00:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To expand, since arguments have erupted below, and its not as quite as "open and shut" as I would have guessed: The concept is already better covered in a number of other ways that make far more sense. (History of video games, generations of video game articles, each individual generation articles, like the 8th gen, etc.) This massive comparison of all these random things (power, sales, features) between everything under the sun that can possibly play a game (consoles, PCs, mobile devices, etc) is a massive WP:INDISCRIMINATE issue as well. Sergecross73 msg me 13:04, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Bad faith nomination. The recent kerfluffle was organized by the exact same editors who vandalized the PC Master Race article about a year ago with a whole bunch of spurious references to Nazi stuff. Jtrainor (talk) 04:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- This is WP:TDLI. If what you claim is true, then there should exist a policy based argument to retain the article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - No, their claim is that the nomination itself is WP:IDLI. TLDI would be "this is just a nomination from some console fan upset about PCs". ReidE96 (talk) 05:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- There is zero evidence that the PC Master Race article was ever vandalized. There was a subsection dedicated to its etymology that included a single objective sentence to Naizi ideology, which made sense in context, and which also helped to elucidate why some journalists objected to its appropriation. Alas, some editors attempted to delete the sentence on dubious grounds, and having failed, went running off to Reddit to muster support. — Niche-gamer 09:47, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Once more, I will say that you are being unnecessarily antagonistic. Operate in and assume good faith. Drunkenvalley (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article definitely has encyclopedic value - it has a large amount of objective useful information organized in a table. Any specific parts which are deemed not objective or have questionable sources can be removed and/or corrected individually, rather than nuking the whole article. Aaronfranke (talk) 05:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:VALUABLE you should state exactly why the information is "useful". What parts can be kept for it to be encyclopedic?_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The comparison function of this article in itself is pretty usefull to me. The fact that I don't have to visit every individual page but can use the table is enough reason for me to keep this article. Adding to that is the fact that it includes gaming platforms that are not considered consoles makes it even more useful ~ Zirguezi 07:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. "It's unencyclopedic" is the last and weakest reason to delete a page, and hasn't been justified. It's reasonably well referenced and edited by consensus until recently. Nomnating it for deletion because people are arguing about it now is not the right way to solve edit disputes. It doesn't appear to "push PC gaming" any more than Fossil fuel pushes oil consumption. —Ben Brockert (42) 05:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Large amounts of objective information. If this isn't encyclopedic, most other comparison list articles aren't either. ReidE96 (talk) 05:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, they may not be encyclopedic either, so that isn't a legitimate reason to keep this one._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This article consists of a series of unrelated consoles from various generations. This information is presented much more clearly in the "Xth generation of video game consoles" articles. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 05:32, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The biggest problem with that reasoning is that they are focused on video game consoles, not gaming platforms. The three largest platforms for playing video games are Windows PCs, iOS devices, and Android devices - all of which are gaming platforms, but none of which are video game consoles. I'm not sure if they really fit cleanly into those pages. Moreover, this list cuts across generations, allowing direct sorting and comparison between generations and across time. The video game generation articles are dedicated to particular generations, they aren't list articles. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:42, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Is there a particular reason to include gaming platforms in the comparison? The way I see it, operating systems are totally different from consoles, and in fact consoles have their own operating systems, rendering the comparison incomparable._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:48, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - Gaming platforms is more abstract. I also see no grounds for exactly how you would fail to compare i.e. a "PC" and an "XBOX One" - please elaborate. Drunkenvalley (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - PCs can be custom built in any configuration. Xbox One cannot. There is the potential for a PC to be weaker or stronger than an Xbox One. Therefore any kind of comparison will fall flat. And if we remove the PC, the article is merely a duplicate of other articles that exist on Wikipedia._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 13:47, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - I agree. There is a big difference between gaming platform and gaming consoles. Both lists serve their own function ~ Zirguezi 07:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Listcruft is an indiscriminate or trivial list, but a comparison of video game platforms is neither of those things - gaming platforms are themselves an encyclopedic topic, so there is no reason why a list comparing them would be problematic. The PC, IOS, and Android platforms have a lot more total sales than console platforms because of their much greater longevity and use for non-gaming purposes, not because of bias, and the page itself is quite neutral, simply listing out data, as is the case with most list pages. The argument that it is being used to promote PC gaming seems questionable, and it being a lot of work to make better isn't an argument for deletion, but expansion. If you have some idea of what improvements you'd like to see, it might be worth bringing them up on the talk page. My biggest concern with the article as-is is that it is missing the first four generations of gaming consoles, as well as whether or not "PC" should be broken out into multiple platforms, as Android and iOS are considered separately, so it might make sense to break out Windows, DOS, Linux, MacOS, ect. However, neither of those things are reasons to delete the article. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that PS3 used to be able to run Linux means that you are essentially comparing hardware with software that is run on hardware. Therefore the article is too problematic to exist in its current form, and if it was distilled to only consoles, it would be rendered superfluous by existing "X generation" articles on consoles._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:51, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Comparison pages should be made for directly comparable material. As the page stands now, it is a list of random statistics of various platforms across multiple generations that offer no clear overview of the differences/strengths/weaknesses between them. Compare with Comparison of wiki software brought up above. That page provides relevant information to readers regarding directly comparable differences between wiki software, whereas this gaming platform page is more of a summary for each platform than a comparison (most blatant being input & online services columns). In my opinion, 'gaming platforms' as a concept is simply too varied to allow for direct comparison to occur: no amount of work will allow a fair comparison between a PS4 and an iPhone. tonyxc600 comms logs 05:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The PS4 and the iPhone are both just computers. The PS4 is just one which is much more focused on video games. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:46, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Right, but there are very few valid points of comparison between them, beyond the fact that they are both computers and they both run games. They serve far too different purposes as gaming platforms to be able to compare. It would be like trying to compare books and TV as sources of entertainment - the category is simply too broad. As a thought, perhaps it would be a good compromise to redirect this to a simple list of gaming platforms, rather than a comparison? tonyxc600 comms logs 05:52, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - Definitely. I mean, something we can also try is comparing system software instead of trying to compare hardware. Console games are loaded from the console's operating system, and we have articles of their operating systems. How far can we get with that? FosterHaven (talk) 06:01, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Nominated under WP:IDLI if nothing else the edit history of the last 24-48 hours demonstrates one side would rather destroy an article of genuine encyclopedic worth than risk having to concede their position to the counter argument. OSUBrit (talk) 05:56, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that OSUBrit (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. [reply]
Comment - I'm abstaining from this discussion due to my occasional participation on the PCMR subreddit, but I thought it would be prudent to alert everyone that posts claiming that this AfD is some effort to "censor the superiority of PC" are currently trending on both /r/pcmasterrace and /r/KotakuInAction. This is just a notification in case we get WP:SPAs on this though, please do not brigade those posts from our end. Let's remain the voices of reason here. --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 06:04, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I will be completely honest, this article has serious, but surmountable flaws. This article attempts to compare apples and oranges, insofar as comparing dedicated gaming platforms (XBox/Playstation/etc) to multi-use devices (PC/Mobile phones). That being said, I see this RfD as being fueled by both WP:IDLI and WP:RUNNERUP. WP:Listcruft does not apply under my interpretation as it does not neatly fit under any tenets that Listcruft is frequently used for. WP:INDISCRIMINATE is the only view I could see someone currently arguing on, but I strongly believe that this is not the case. The organization of the article needs to improve, perhaps going so far as to separate the article in dedicated platforms and co-opted ones, but the content is useful as a jump-off point and to show the diversity of gaming platforms. I'm also confused by the seemingly incomplete list of platforms; the article has been active for four years yet seems mightily incomplete. My only concern for the future of the article is the length of the list and useability concerns ten generations down the line. We have the articles on "X Generation", but this could/should serve as a high-level, easily-digestible list. Overall, I believe defining "gaming platform" more rigidly would be in everyone's best interest. --Slazenger (Contact Me) 06:29, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per OSUBrit's observation. MeanMotherJr (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as the AfD appears to be borne out of WP:IDLI, with little argument as to how it fails to be encyclopedic. Drunkenvalley (talk) 07:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the list is absolutely relevant and encyclopedic. It might have quality and inconsistency problems but deleting it now would prevent us from making it better. ~ Zirguezi 07:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Zirguezi (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. [reply]
Weak keep, rename to Comparison of home video game consoles While it looks initially quite useful, problems arise when you realise the amount of gaming consoles out there. This is just a random comparison of a few of them, and the article needs serious reform, preferably to provide a comparison of home video game consoles for their respective generations. ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 08:09, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @My name is not dave: You may want to consider that such a thing exists already in the form of articles such as Second generation of video game consoles which list all relevant statistics for the consoles and can be compared should a user want to. A duplicate article for all generations would just be a waste of editing time._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 13:35, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- I think it would be quite comprehensive actually. ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 13:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - @My name is not dave:Comprehensive maybe, but serving no clear purpose. There is no real reason to compare different console gens, as they will obviously be superior to the last. Comparing the gens amongst themselves is far more arguably enyclopedic because it demonstrates how they competed with each other._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 13:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As observed above, the nomination seems a clear case of WP:IDLI, and a desperate attempt at arbitrarily disqualifying the PC as a gaming platform after simply removing it from the article failed. Hard to see good faith in this. Any problems the article has (and I mean actual problems, not just "it was started by some people from a PC-focused subreddit") should be discussed on the talk page and fixed, instead of resorting to such drastic measures. Indrek (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Repurpose This page would be better served as a comparison of online platforms for games (Steam, PSN, Xbox Live, etc.) and then link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_games. Or perhaps as an actual big ol' list of hardware that summarises across all generations. Trying to compare PC to dedicated gaming consoles is really difficult to do as not every statistic needed is tracked so easily for PC. Also, considering how broad the term PC is and how the line between PC and Console is further blurred each generation, trying to compare them in the way presented here seems fruitless. Ranger10700 (talk) 08:32, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I was led here by the post on the PCMR subreddit. I see two major, competing issues. The first is that gaming is complex, and comparing the various platforms on which one can game is a difficult thing to categorize. If you try to limit the article to 'dedicated' platforms, then you're ignoring the great majority of games and the three largest platforms for gaming (Android, iOS, and PC.) On the other hand, the current comparison table is a mess. At the moment, you can't even usefully sort on most of these fields, because the formatting is so inconsistent. (alpha sorts on entries that are supposed to be numeric??)

This article, however, isn't that old, and it might be possible to straighten it up with a little more discipline. A master list of gaming platforms is a useful thing to have; the ability to click through on many of these columns to further data could be pretty compelling. This page would have been very useful to me about two months ago, had I thought to search for it. I'd suggest giving the page editors some time (six months??) to adjust the article and bring it up to a more reasonable standard; a minimum requirement would probably be to make number fields sortable as numbers.

It isn't actively causing harm, isn't visibly pushing anyone's agenda, and could potentially serve as an excellent synopsis and launch point. Putting the page editors on notice, and then re-examining in the future would seem a reasonable solution. I'd suggest deferring any deletion decision. Malor (talk) 08:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Article has no encyclopedic value. Only exists due to canvasing from other internet communities like reddit. Let them create their pointless wiki pages on their own websites. Wikipedia should aim to be encyclopedic. 60.226.224.192 (talk) 08:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— 60.226.224.192 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Keep. Encyclopedic content worthy of a list. Deleting under what looks to be a claim of WP:DONTLIKE is not what we stand for here at Wikipedia. To those coming from various Reddit threads, please familiarize yourself with the various related arguments to avoid before !voting, otherwise your opinion may be discounted. Anarchyte (work | talk) 09:29, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This article is useful in comparing gaming platforms and only uses facts and number and absolutely no opinions. 84.108.117.2 (talk) 10:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— 84.108.117.2 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Keep As per TitaniumDragons point, I think PC is too all encompassing: The definition of PC the table appears to use could equally well encompass every other item in the table as they are all "personal computing" devices, but that is not a reason to delete.RobbieAB (talk) 11:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that RobbieAB (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. [reply]

Keep This is clearly an attempt at vandalism by console gamers who somehow think that PC gaming and/or Mobile Gaming affects them negatively. 71.90.44.33 (talk) 11:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— 71.90.44.33 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete No encyclopedic value due to nonsense comparisons which are very hard to fix because of massive platform differences. Also the table is severely lacking information regarding some of the cells, for example majority of backward and forward compatibility entries are either misleading or very inaccurate. Same applies to a lot of other entries as well. This table would confuse or mislead a general consumer even if he knew all the definitions and wouldn't be useful to anyone else since individual wiki pages for platforms have much more and better structured information. Also if the table is left and fully completed it would become insanely bloated and again, be no use for anyone. P.S. for the redditors who keep spamming "Keep" without actually reading the article involved, please do, you'll see that it's terrible to begin with. SomeGuy147 (talk) 11:53, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article falls under the category informational list per the wikipedia notability guidelines, and does not meet the criteria for deletion. Aside from that, this demand that the article be deleted is an attempt at vandalism, after the vandals grew frustrated with struggling to effectively maintain their bias in the list. The list itself provides interesting and useful information that is relevant to a number of separate topics which firmly fall within standard wikipedia article guidelines, such as gaming and esports. It also seems that the primary point of contention was mostly revolving around spurious claims about gaming platforms are organized. Yakri (talk) 12:50, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Yakri (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Keep There is an encyclopedic value to data pertaining to the usage of various systems used for electronic gaming, which is itself a form of leisure; and how human beings pursue leisure is important for the purposes of research and historical posterity. Stc1992 (talk) 1:14, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Stc1992 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.

Keep keep the comparison as following: comparison between latest models of pc-xbox-playstation-nintendo. And throw other remaining consoles and platforms in a different table. This way, the comparison is fair and the article is actually useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenm v2 (talk • contribs) 13:28, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

— Kenm v2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep the comparison article, with the same modifications Kenm2 suggested above me. There is nothing on the article that makes it worthy for deletion. Lempamo (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete The core problem here is the last column on the table, trying to show how many units were sold; while consoles can be assumed to be principally used for gaming, we cannot make that assumption for PCs or mobile platforms, and when you consider the longevity of the PC platform, the table does appear to be a very poor form of synthesis to show how much better that the PC platform is than the others, sweeping some facts like that under the rug. There is a place for comparing the best estimates of playerbase (groups like ESA and EEDAR have such figures), but that begs a fresh start without so much focus on the technical specs. My "weak" here is only because there may be some content in this that is neutral that could be used towards that, but I don't think a whole lot. --MASEM (t) 13:48, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Meets notability guidelines and does not meet the criteria for deletion. Suppafly (talk) 13:51, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: per above, bad faith nomination, topic certainly meets Wikipedia guidelines, and complexity of the issue. Javert2113 (talk) 14:07, 12 September 2017 (UTC)— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Javert2113 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.[reply]

Keep - The PC should be allowed to compared to consoles,so people realize that there is a better option than some sort of overpriced plastic boxes.

@@ Line 76: / Line 76: @@
 *'''Keep''' Meets notability guidelines and does not meet the criteria for deletion. [[User:Suppafly|Suppafly]] ([[User talk:Suppafly|talk]]) 13:51, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''': per above, bad faith nomination, topic certainly meets Wikipedia guidelines, and complexity of the issue. [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|talk]]) 14:07, 12 September 2017 (UTC)<small>— '''Note''': An editor has expressed a concern that [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Javert2113|contribs]]) has been [[WP:CANVAS|canvassed]] to this discussion.
-'''Keep''' - The PC should be allowed to compared to consoles,so people realize that there is a better option than some sort of overpriced plastic boxes.
+*'''Keep''' - The PC should be allowed to compared to consoles,so people realize that there is a better option than some sort of overpriced plastic boxes.
  {{#if:|([{{{2}}} diff])|}}</small>