Talk:2017 Catalan independence referendum

October 3 General Strike

The general strike proposal was originally put forward by the anarcho-syndicalist CGT and CNT along with some smaller anarchist groups - not the CCOO who endorsed it just recently, as did the UGT. It was also originally proposed with a neutral view towards independence and primarily as a response to the repression of the Spanish government.

Multiple voting

A source stating that Spanish Interior Ministry asserts that was possible voting more than one time while in the very same source the spokesman for the Catalan government denies it is used only for the first, just some words later. As no proof real multiple votings is given and only part of the info of the (unisgned) article is given, I remove it as biased, at least as references exist. --Panotxa (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Mass removal of content

I had to revert this edit, a sweeping mass removal of sourced content, which comes across as irregular. Please bring your claims and concerns here. Iñaki LL (talk) 20:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

This should have been here in the first place, and not in the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, no. A mass removal of sourced information in a highly polarized article does not look very constructive, which is concern enough. If you have doubts, act constructively and point out the exact problems. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:01, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

To start with, a mass addition of POV text to a highly contentions article does not good, and was predictably reverted. --Ymblanter (talk) 08:03, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, POV is being added continually, as stated in the tag at the top, so do point to exact problems in this excerpt, I am clueless. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

May be you should read WP:BRD--Ymblanter (talk) 08:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I did. Still someone has mass removed sourced information. I should think there are problems w some sources, but not sure about it. You can enlighten me. Iñaki LL (talk) 09:14, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I hoped that with 1o years tenure and 9K edits you should know better if one can write "Spanish government started a mass propaganda campaign" unattributed. If you do not understand this, I suggest you take the case to a general board.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Edgarmm81 (talk) 18:14, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Although https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ymblanter and other Spanish unionist may feel uncomfortable, the accusation of "Spanish government started a mass propaganda campaign" is well-grounded. Let me show you some evidences:

BACKGROUND - BEFORE THE REFERENDUM

1. The Spanish government assumed they had lost the battle for the foreign media.

2. The dirty war against the independentism

3. Beatriz Talegón, member of the Parliament and ex-RTVE (Spanish public TV) journalist, reporting the lack of objectivity and pro-Government bias in the RTVE news, the day before of the referendum . Lack of objectivity and plurality in RTVE: no tertulian nor collaborator supporting the Catalan referendum during the whole 2014.

4. People's Party of Madrid accused the Mayor of Madrid of "Apology of a referendum". . New criminalisation concept, not registered in any Criminal Law book.

5. It is hard to believe that, by chance, all the unionist media (many financially aid by the Spanish Government) launched, simultaneously, a cover highlighting that "kids to be used as a human shields", 2 days before the referendum, and in fact, this news turned out to be FALSE. The Guardia Civil released the same message on its website:. Certainly, that is a blatantly evident media manipulation to smooth the premeditated violent plans that the Spanish police had in mind and, also, to justify themselves in case any child was wounded.

Appendix: Media beneficiaries of Spanish financial aids:

AFTER THE REFERENDUM

DISINFORMATION

6. The Foreign Minister Mr Alfonso Dastis allegedly ignoring and disregarding the effects of the antiriot charges, when was told there were 896 people wounded (Skynews, 01/oct/2017):

7. Same thing, same day, on BBC Newsnight (Is the Foreign Minisiter not receiving any update of such a significant event? Or, does he live isolated?):

8. Foreign Minister Mr Alfonso Dastis denying any brutality on Andrew Marr Show (BBC One, 22/oct/2017). An extract:

Alfonso Dastis: No, I dont think there is any brutality... many of these pictures have been proved to be fake pictures... Andrew Marr: Really? AD: If there is any force, it was a limited one...

9. Foreign Minister Mr Alfonso Dastis interviewed on the programme "Conflict Zone" (German DW television) in an interview titled "Spanish FM on Catalonia We may have been naive", on the 15/Nov/2011. Please, watch the whole interview!!! For example: when the interviewer asks "you continue denying the use of force" (4:05), or the Foreign Ministers replies by saying "we haven't used the coercion 19:27)

10. The coordinator of all the police bodies during the referendum, Mr Diego Pérez de los Cobos, states that the antiriot charges were the result of "direct violent actions" against them, but only "5 people" were arrested.. On the other hand, 1,066 civilians were wounded and 230 of them sued the Spanish police for that.

11. Former socialist Vicepresident in the 90s, Alfonso Guerra, on "Onda Cero" radio: "The sociaist members must condemn the Catalan participants in the coup d'état, instead of the Government vicepresident", "people got scandalized because of the charges because they still live mentally in a dictatorship", "the State only uses its legitimate force" and, even, "Catalonia has been developing a prefascist movement for years".

12. Foreign Minister Mr Alfonso Dastis blamed Russia on interference over the Catalan situation, on several occasions. However, neither he nor the Spanish Intelligence have been able to find any evidence on this accusation.

HUMILIATION OF VICTIMS

13. The Justice Minister, Mr Rafael Catalá, disregarding and laughing at the victimis of the anti-riot excesses in the Spanish Parliament, on the 22/Nov/2017:

FAKE NEWS ON FAKE NEWS

14. Percival Manglano (member of People's Party in Madrid) suggesting that the picture of an elderly lady removed by the police was a "fake" as she was a Basque citizen and it belonged to a different antiriot performance. This accusation was proved to be false, the photo was confirmed to be accurate and, also, it was confirmed they are two different madams.

15. "El Pais" and the reputed Spanish unionist journalist Mr Pepe Oneto stated that the picture of an elderly woman bleeding in the head by Geraldine Hope Ghelli was a "fake", the woman had "fake blood", had "no wounds" and even concluded that "the woman shoudn't be alive". However, the picture tuned out to be real and was chosen as one of the "Bloomberg's 100 photos of the 2017"

16. There were only 3 proved "fake photos" (it should say "belonging to other events" rather than "fake") and another one regarded as inaccurate (real photo but somebody drawn an "estelada flag" in there) by the specialised website "Maldito Bulo". The unionist newspaper "El Pais" suggested there were 5, plus the same "inaccurate" photo.

17. Like I said in a previous point, the cruellest photos reported to be "fake" have been proved to be authentic actually, as well as dozens of videos, such as the one at the "Pau Claris" High School or the man who lost an eye at the "Ramon Llull" school. However, the Foreign Minister denies it in front of the domestic and international television.

RECURRENT FALSEHOOD REGARDING KIDS USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS

18. Mr Xavier Garcia-Albiol, president of People' Party in Catalonia, kept insisting on the idea that baby kids are used as a human shields on the subsequent general strike following the referendum . Contradicted by "Maldito Bulo" (a "fake news" specialized website").

THREAT OVERTOLERANCE

19. On the 09/oct/2017, 8 days after the police excesses, a Policia Nacional labor union released on Twitter a photo of 10 policemen carrying assault weapons in a defiant, belligerent and intimidatory attitude with the following message: "Contra los golpistas... ¿Hablamos?" for "Against the participant in the coup d'état.. Do we speak"? Paraphrasing Catalan President Mr Carles Puigdemont requesting striking up a conversation. The photo has not been condemned by that Labor Union, Policia Nacional, the Home Office not even any member of the Government. The photo is still visible on Twitter.

MASS MEDIA BIAS AND CONTROL

20. John Carlin, the reputed British journalist working for the unionist media "El Pais", fired after defending the idea of a binding referendum

21. Public Spanish Television (RTVE) broadcasted biased news of the referendum, causing concern and indignation among its journalists and Labor Union (04/10/2017)

22. The Labor Union "CCOO" warning the presence of policemen in plain clothes in the RTVE Catalan facilities , on the 22/oct/2017

CENSORSHIP

23. Teachers investigated for commentaries on the referendum the following day (3 different cases) + suing a school using a picture of 2013.

24. A school in Terrassa investigated after the student's representative was elected under referendum

BOYCOTTING FURTHER INVESTIGATION

25. With reference to the antiriot charges, the Spanish Government rejected to carry out any investigation and, moreover, boycott the Catalan ones

LEGAL PROCEEDINGS

26. The unusual prompt proceedings of the involved pro-independence civil leaders and politicians suggests a sense of urgency, improvisation, bias in the sentences and the need of an early criminalisation:

• Bias: the designated judge was awarded by the Spanish Justice Minister a few days before the referendum.

• 10 irregularities detected in the proceeding.

• Over 109 Criminal Law Professors and university lecturers from all over of Spain signing a manifesto against the proceeding.

• The Spanish Supreme Court was unable to provide the evidences of the proceedings as requested by the Belgian authorities, which led the Spanish Supreme Court to have to withdraw the Carles Puigdemont's international arrest warrant

Bearing everything in mind, it is blatantly evident the presence of propaganda and a premiditated misinformation strategy as well as censorship, indoctrination and political alignement.

REMOVE INACCURATE POINTS

Edgarmm81 (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Please, proceed to remove the inaccurate points, as I have requested it several times and nobody did it.

1) With reference to the woman who had all the finger broken, one by one, Ms Marta Torrecillas, she took her accusation back on the following day. The concept "investigation" is false.

So, please, remove or re-write the following quotation:

"A Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) councillor accused the police deliberately breaking her fingers one by one and of sexual abuse during a polling station evacuation, but later investigation disproved these statements.[201][202][199]"

2) Regarding the introduction, the whole paragraph does not make sense:

"On the day of the referendum, the inaction of the autonomous police force of Catalonia, the Mossos d'Esquadra, allowed polling stations to open. The National Police Corps and the Guardia Civil intervened and raided polling stations after they opened.[35][36] 893 civilians and 431 agents of the Nacional Police and the Guardia Civil were reported to have been injured initially.[37][36][38] According to various sources these previously reported figures may have been exaggerated.[39] According to the judge from Barcelona that is currently investigating the accusations of police violence there were 218 persons injured on that day, 20 of which were agents.[40][41] The final official numbers by the Catalan government show that 1066 civilians and 11 agents of the National Police and the Guardia Civil, and 1 from the regional police the Mossos d'Esquadra were injured.[42]"

a) In connection with "The inaction of the autonomous police force of Catalonia, the Mossos d'Esquadra": that is simply false, but the Spanish Government spread that idea. In fact, it is believed Mossos d'Esquadra confiscated twice the amount of ballot boxes that the Spanish Policia Nacional did. . Besides, the Catalan police assured that Spanish police did not honour the coordination agreements and the Public Prosecutor commanded local police to confiscate ballot boxes, too.

b) "893 civilians and 431 agents of the Nacional Police and the Guardia Civil were reported to have been injured initially.[37][36][38] According to various sources these previously reported figures may have been exaggerated.[39] According to the judge from Barcelona that is currently investigating the accusations of police violence there were 218 persons injured on that day, 20 of which were agents.[40][41] The final official numbers by the Catalan government show that 1066 civilians and 11 agents of the National Police and the Guardia Civil, and 1 from the regional police the Mossos d'Esquadra were injured.[42]". According to the only official report (the ones released by the Catalan Health Service), there were 1,066 civilian and 12 policemen wounded (not 431). Furthermore, the idea of 431 policemen wounded is completely flaw because:

• The amount (431) was inflated overnight (from 39, but no extra incident was registered that night) • This amount has never been contrasted. • No clinical report released, except for the Catalan Health Service that indicates just 11 policemen wounded. • Although antiriot police is equipped with GoPro camera, no visual evidence has been released of that extreme violence • There are no amateur videos suggesting wounded antiriot policemen or fierce violence; on the other hand, the videos show peaceful voters. • It is unlikely that a ratio 1 policemen wounded out of 2 civilian would not imply a police reinforcement or a modification of the strategy. • No further consequence, no Chief policemen resignation or fired as a result of that allegedly bad planning and/or execution. • Neither army nor extra police reinforcement deployed the following day.