Talk:Transnistria

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Smuggling company masquerading as a state

For the past year or more, I have been trying to track down the elusive report which "funded by" the British Department for International Development and claims that Transnistria is a "smuggling company masquerading as a state." It is not on the department's website and when I contacted them, they said that they have no knowledge of such a report. I have also done all sorts of web searches, and the only references we get are citations of earlier Wikipedia articles and of the BBC article. One paper included it, but it had obviously gotten the quote from the BBC story and not from the report, and in fact no one to date even knows the title of the report or who wrote it. The fact that BBC published it is not proof of anything. BBC has also published that one of the Smirnov sons own Sheriff, and we now know - thanks to Moldpres, no less - that this is not the case. I would appreciate if anyone could help me track down this report. It has been a quest of mine for a long time to find out if it exists. - Mauco 22:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to contact the writer of the BBC article, Lucy Ash bogdan 22:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

If you don't hear back from her, please let me know. I don't know her but I am touch with one of her colleagues (also from BBC). So maybe I can help with finding out if she still works there, and maybe get a phone number for her. Just email me privately from my email link and I can probably assist you if you reach a dead end. - Mauco 22:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I sent a week ago a message to "Crossing Continents" asking to be forwarded to Lucy Ash, but I got no answer yet, possibly because:

BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents is now off air until 9 November 2006

bogdan 21:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I have exported to and from many countries and I can tell you that the Transnistrian border is just about the most protected and secure border in Europe, I challange anyone to try and smuggle anything across it.Don't believe the propaganda. MarkStreet Oct 12th

Sure, a lot of it is propaganda (on both sides) but let us also be realistic. There are 800+ kilometers of border. Some of it is on a lake. Some of it has rivers. Some of it is a "green border" with Ukraine. There is even a border which goes through some roads in a residential suburb (Varnitsa). If you want to get things in and out, you probably could. It is harder now and the European Union are spending millions of dollars on the EUBAM program. But where in the world do you find 800 km of truly secured borders? Not even along the Rio Grande. Mexicans come into the US every hour of every day. The key point is not if there is smuggling but whether or not it is statesponsored or encouraged by Transnistria. Moldova claims that it is ("Smuggling company masquerading as a state") but where is the evidence? If it exists, we can publish it. If not, it is propaganda. - Mauco 23:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

the EU has this week confirmed the smuggling claims to be false so Its makes sense to delete this section. See Tiraspoltimes.com for full details and other news agencies reporting the same. This should be the end of smuggling claims en-masse . Can I request you to delete this ? MarkStreet oct 19th 2006

Sheriff not owned by Smirnov

Sheriff is a company with many stockholders - how do you know that Smirnov's son is not between them?--MariusM 09:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain, so if you want to say that Smirnov owns Sheriff, you just have to prove it. However, having said that, there is currently a trend to still try to smuggle misleading or just plain wrong information into the article by not claiming direct responsibility but by attributing them to a third party source. Example: If you say that Sheriff is owned by the Smirnov family, then someone will ask for verification and the claim (which is wrong) can therefore not be included. But if you say "BBC says that Sheriff is owned by Smirnov", then technically the claim is correct and could stay, which means that you succeeded in falsifying the article. You yourself, MariusM, have used this technique to great success and I will be happy to cite half a dozen examples, with logs, if you deny this. But since you ask about Sheriff, I will stay on topic. The most important principle is to remember that we have no obligation to include information that is factually wrong not even as a minority view or third party quote. This is called perpetuating a falsehood and this is contrary to the most basic Wikipedia policy. If BBC said it, or someone else said it, they now stand corrected by us. More often than not, the collaborative power of the Internet is better at correcting details and fact finding than a journalist working for the established mass media (as even such venerable sources as The New York Times have found out many times, to its chagrin). In the case of Sheriff, this was dealt with before you came here. I believe it is in Archive 4. One of the sources was Moldpres, the stateowned news agency of Moldova. There is also background information in the Talk page for Sheriff, regarding this same subject. - Mauco 14:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

History section, proposed sentence for deletion

In order to shorten the history section, I propose removing the following sentence:
"In May 2005, the Ukrainian government of Viktor Yushchenko proposed a seven-point plan for the settlement of the conflict between Transnistria and Moldova."
It will not disappear from Wikipedia because it is already present in History of Transnistria and will stay there. However, in the summary (on the main Transnistria article) we should only include important key points and the Yushchenko plan has turned out to not be one of those. When it was put forward, everyone had great hopes, but now it just fiddled out and has been relegated to a not-very-important part of history. I am posting this proposal here, in case anyone has any objections to this edit, so we can get a chance to discuss it first. - Mauco 23:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It is important. Some state proposing a "X-point plan" concerning your country means they feel quite strong on the issue to intervene in the politics of your contry. Dpotop 09:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Minor correction: Not my country. But thanks, and your comment is valued. Anyone else? - Mauco 12:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I am opposed to the use of the word 'Conflict'. The conflict ended 16 years ago. I suggest using the word 'inter-relations. MarkStreet Oct 12th 2006

Flag

The flag shown at the Transnistria page is not the current one, just have a look at Transnistria's homepage: http://www.president-pmr.org/english/index_e.htm

See Flag of Transnistria. `'mikka (t)

In fact, that is the correct flag (see the talk page of that article). The discrepancy between descriptions meant for a foreign, English-speaking, audience and the flag's specs as provided for in PMR law are, I have no doubt, intentional. (The legislation--sorry, only in Russian--is available here: http://president-pmr.org/symbol/flag.htm) Jamason 01:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Alan, assume good faith. ;-) 99% of all the flags they use don't have the embarrassing "hot symbols" and the flag law is OK with that except for official use. But what really surprised me, though, was that on this particular 2nd of September you didn't have a single hammer and sickle in sight on any of the photos, and I am not just talking about the photos that were released to the West, but everywhere, even private snapshots. In fact, even the huge flag that the folklore dancers carried and then hoisted, it also didn't have it. No red star either. All the official flags, used by state that day, were the civil flags. I thought: "Hmm, these guys surely need to change their flag law now". However: this changed two weeks later, on referendum Sunday. CEC provided flags for all polling stations and some of them (not all) had the hammer and sickly symbols on them... - Mauco 04:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The flag used is indeed correct. Some people inTD drop the hammer and sickle for different reasons, including the fact it can be difficult to incorporate into homemade flags. MarkStreet

Ukraine-Transnistria border customs conflict

This part needs an update from someone. I looked at the main article Ukraine-Transnistria border customs conflict and it has no news since March. It is now October. I can not update it: I do not know enough about this subject. I have started to do research but it is complex. (+don't speak Russian). I am trying to learn so I can edit here in the future. But not yet ready now. Can someone else update this part? - Pernambuco 13:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Still deadlocked. The latest is a series of tries by Transnistria in various Ukrainian courts of law (first Odessa, then Kiev) to overturn the measures. They have all been turned down. - Mauco 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"given proof of involvement by Moldovan police"

That is POV. A Moldovan policeman was caught having drugs. Claiming that the whole institution of Moldovan Police is involved is a bit presumptuous, isn't it? bogdan 22:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The proof was his police ID and his arrest, but there is no indication in the sources that he acted on behalf of the Moldovan government. - Mauco 04:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Sadly the Moldovan police are very corrupt. Try driving through Moldova in a car with western plates. You will be stopped and fined at least three times a day for non-existant offences. Ukraine is also poor in this regard. Transdnistria, perhaps because of its small size seems to have control of its police and such petty corruptions are rare. MarkStreet Oct 12th

Some numbers

Mauco, I was just looking over some figures:

• 2000: GDP: $283m; budget:$80m ~28.3% of the GDP (official figures)
• 2005: GDP: $420m; budget, my estimation: $117m
• cost of the Sheriff stadium: $250m

How the hell can one country build a stadium which costs more than half of the GDP and more than double the state budget? Economically, it is impossible, unless:

1. there is a very developed underground economy
2. there is some money laundering involved.

Do you have any logical explanation related to these figures for economy of Transnistria? bogdan 22:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

First, you should maybe scratch the "my estimation" parts because I have no idea what hat that came out of unless you explain a bit more, please. Secondly, Sheriff might be financing this over several years so a year-on-year comparison is apples vs oranges. Or they may be overstating the cost of the Stadium just for bragging rights (just like the losses from the "blockade" are overstated by an order of magnitude for other reasons). A lot of normal explanations are possible. Basically, with such a set of loose premises, I think that we are on too shaky ground to even make a guestimate of what the real situation might be. But it would certainly be good to dig into this and get some real numbers. By the way, did you see the new flashy Central Bank premises? They look like a competition to "out-Sheriff" Sheriff. - Mauco 04:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

My estimation was just the budget as percentage of GDP. Also, from what I've seen on their page, I don't think their estimate is far off.

Heh, competition:

"Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian and Eurasian organized crime at Keele University in England, said in an interview that the Trans-Dniester Republic maintained an uneasy peace between five to seven international criminal gangs with varying holds on power." (NYTimes)

bogdan 08:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ... Sounds like an Anarcho-capitalism dreamworld. ;-)
:::(Galeotti, by the way, is probably the sloppiest of all Transnistria researchers, as you have no doubt seen if from his original article). - Mauco 12:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys, there is way in this world that stadium cost €250 million. A 90,000 seater stadium was built in the British Isles for that money and salaries and coststhere are many times higher, also they probably borrowed the money. MarkStreet Oct 12

I think that you wanted to say that "there is no way in this world that stadium cost €250 million. I agree, Sounds very high, But I know too little about this subject. - Pernambuco 22:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the stadium in Transnistria would include a sport complex with several smaller football fields and a 5-star hotel. bogdan 22:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. You yourself made the error of saying "cost of the Sheriff stadium" above. It should be rephrased to "cost of the total Sheriff sports complex". There are something like five courts, and indoor winter court, training courts. Also living quarters for the foreign players and their families. From Africa, Brazil, Georgia and so on. - Mauco 23:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth

Wikipedia is not supposed to write the truth. We're just writing just major opinions on what the truth might be. That's the policy. If there were a consensus on what the truth is, then we might write it as if it were the truth. When the BBC, Washington Post and the like are saying something on an issue, you can't just discard because "western press are biased", "they know nothing on this", the POV they present is a notable POV and should be mentioned. bogdan 08:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on now, these are not the arguments. However, there is such a thing as notability, too, and this applies even more so to cases of presenting fallacies. We are dealing with very specific things here, both of which have been discussed in the past (see archives) and discarded for valid Wikipedia reasons. If we are re-including these two fallacies now - again, after already having been over this ground - we are merely going in circles. In the specific case of Sheriff, there is already a separate page Sheriff (company). This would be the appropriate place to introduce additional context, to avoid text forking. The summary included here (in main Transnistria) should then include a synopsis of the most the pertinent points from that article. You know that this is how it is done. I will assume good faith, as always, so let us hammer this out on this particular Talk page and decide on how we can present, to the readers, an accurate view of the situation. The BBC's statement is not a "point of view" but just a plain journalistic error and we are making an even bigger error if we give it the same time and space as what is now, later, known to be factually true. This does not make Wikipedia better as a resource for its readers; it makes it worse. - Mauco 12:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, it is incorrect to describe BBC's claim that Smirnov owns Sheriff as the "point of view" (POV) of the BBC. This is not BBC's opinion, but just a journalistic screwup and, as we know now, wrong. However, even if it was a "view", then recall that according to WP:NPOV, Wikipedia still aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. Here, the concerned parties are Moldova and Transnistria. The available evidence which superceedes that of the BBC article is from official sources on both sides, and they both agree that Sheriff is not owned by Smirnov. - Mauco 13:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind you Mauco that in Sheriff article talk page we agreed that we don't know exactly who the stockholders of Sheriff are. It seems that nobody checked if somebody from Smirnov family is or was in the past stockholder at Sheriff. Until we have clear data we can not conclude that it was a journalistic screwup.--MariusM 14:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

This dispute has been amply covered elsewhere (and settled, as any neutral Wikipedian would probably concede after studying the content of that page). Short of changing a couple of the five pillars, I don't see what else we can do at this stage, but anyone is of course welcome to join the discussion here: Talk:Sheriff (company). Let me also remind you, MariusM, that there is such a thing as majority viewpoints, minority viewpoints and plain fallacies. The latter should not be perpetuated if we are all aiming to make Wikipedia a useful research resource rather than a vehicle for personal bias. - Mauco 14:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the dispute was settled: we don't now exactly who owns Sheriff. I never asked for an inclusion of a statement that Sheriff is owned by Smirnov in any Wikipedia article, I just wanted to remind you that, as we don't know the truth, we can not label BBC's article as "plain journalistic error" or "journalistic screwup", as you did.--MariusM 00:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we call it sloppy journalism, then? The article did not make a guess but stated it categorically, as fact. In reality, it is hearsay (and a wrong one, at that). Now, with the current level of infighting between Sheriff and Smirnov, is there anyone anywhere who still believes the old saw that Sheriff is owned by the Smirnovs? Please name one respected analyst or Moldova-watcher who is willing to go on the record at the current point in time and claim so. - Mauco 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but ...

Two days ago, British journalist Shaun Walker just published a report where he points out the danger of relying on sensationalist media reports as the main source of Transnistria info. See http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/10/05/009.html and note that Shaun Walker has actually visited Transnistria (which is more than can be said for 95%+ of the editors of Wikipedia Transnistria-related articles). He wrote:
With my information about the places filtered through the occasional sensationalist Western media report, I turned up in both cases excitedly expecting to find the final frontier; a gangster-ridden epicenter of weapons and human smuggling; a dark and wild version of the Soviet Union. Instead, what I got in both wannabe capitals was a sleepy provincial town, with tree-lined streets and ordinary people going about their business trying to make ends meet.
His onsite research match other recent reports from organizations who have taken the trouble to go there and spend time on doing the needed research, including the British government funded Saferworld in their newly published United Nations study on weapons. - Mauco 13:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The two day old report was published in the Moscow Times. Those familiar with The Moscow Times know that is not considered a Putin mouthpiece. If anything, many in Russia see it as the informal voice of the US State Department. It is often a training ground for Western diplomats and high officials in Western governmental organizations. The current OSCE Ambassador to Moldova, Louis O'Neill, worked at Moscow Times before moving to the State Department. - Mauco 13:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what he expected to see. Weapons smuggling and money laundering are not the kind of crimes that can be seen on the street in broad daylight. bogdan 13:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Mauco, the fragment you cited is pure propaganda. It contains exactly 0 information, because being a crime hub does not imply that you have to live in some Metropolis-like city with obvious bad guys patrolling the streets and shooting innocent people or creating infernal devices to destroy the world. Dpotop 17:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the snippet is a little over the top nicey-nicey. Still, going by the reports one hear's of Transnistria you would expect guns and smuggling out in the open. We are often given the image that they do little in attempting to hide their actions, so it might be a little suprising to some to find a fairly ordinary-looking city with people acting like they do anywhere else. --Jonathanpops 11:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Jonathanpops, what happened to being my meatpuppet? I remember that MariusM was all over you when you agreed with me on something, and wanted to check you as sockpuppet as well, insinuating that you and me were both part of a huge KGB conspiracy? After all that, I would have thought that you'd agree with me and not with Dpotop. Seriously, though, to all: The key message of the Moscow Times article wasn't money laundering or smuggling but a need to be skeptical of "the occasional sensationalist Western media report". Walker, the journalist, actually took the trip and spent time in the place, which is something that most journalist never do. They write about Transnistria as if they are writing a B-movie Hollywood screenplay. I would go as far as to say that the collective efforts of Wikipedia editors provide a better source of combined research than much of what passes for journalism on Transnistria. Remember that we have already, through the efforts of many of us here on these pages, found serious errors in mainstream media reports, have sourced them, and have corrected them, right here. - Mauco 15:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember when I was "all over" User:Jonathanpops, what I did so bad to this poor guy? 100% sure I didn't accuse him to be a sockpuppet. Mauco, is so difficult for you to avoid telling fake things about me? The only Request for checkuser I did was in MarkStreet - Henco - Gallenweekend case, however I may ask other requests in the future.--MariusM 21:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think you confused MariusM with Greier, Mauco. [1] --Illythr 21:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I hope Mauco will apologize.--MariusM 22:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I like your tone here either, Marius. It's also impolite to comment in a language the target of the comment isn't supposed to understand. --Illythr 22:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Editor of "Tiraspol Times" engaged in sockpuppetry

I submited a request for checkuser and have the confirmation [2] that Henco, an user who voted for external links in our article [3] is a sockpuppet of MarkStreet, editor of Tiraspol Times (his vote was meantime removed). It seems that MarkStreet learned in Transnistria how to falsify a vote, Transnistrian referendum was a good lesson for him.

I suspected also Gallenweekend to be a sockpuppet, as he registered at Wikipedia in 7 october and the only thing he did was to vote for "Tiraspol Times" [4], no other contribution at Wikipedia. This suspicion was not confirmed, however I still have doubts, as MarkStreet was aware as of 6 October about the fact that he is suspected of sockpuppetry [5] [6] and could take measures to hide his sockpuppetry.

Not surprisingly, User:William Mauco was against investigation about possible sockpuppetry of MarkStreet, trying to accuse the scape goat Bonaparte for such behaviour [7]

"Tiraspol Times" received a narrow vote for inclusion in out article, but I doubt about its merit, as is obvious that his editor is not an onest person. After a request to confirm that he is indeed editor of "Tiraspol Times", MarkStret put a link to his page on Wikipedia at "Tiraspol Times" webpage [8] --MariusM 23:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting - and partly false, friend. When speaking of honesty (or "onesty", as you call it), you may want to check your log and post an apology for publicly putting words in my mouth which are not true and mischaracterize me (William Mauco). Both Khokhoi and myself immediately suspected Henco as a sockpuppet right from the start. I posted a notice on this talk page warning about all sockpuppets (and as you know, Marius, there were some on "your" side, too). Then Khokhoi, not me, was the editor who thought that this particular one - Henco - was Bonaparte's puppet. He struck the votes under that assumption. My mention of Bonni was in this context, and I did not confirm this, but merely pointed out to Khoi that it was a nonissue. You state that I was against investigation. Please show how this is true. It is not. You also state that I was accusing Bonaparte. Please show where I do so. I never did. - Mauco 13:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I have serious doubt that "Tiraspol Times" can be used as reliable neutral source, as it is separatist "news agency" and mainly propagates what Tiraspol regime is trying to implement. Also Mr Mauco judging from your comments and edits, I don’t think you have a neutral standing on this topic. I don’t think Wikipedia should be a sister company of “Tiraspol Times” or “Apsny Press.” We should separate political propaganda of Russian sponsored separatist regimes from encyclopedic information about the topic. Thanks for your attention. Ldingley 14:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Completely off topic. Ldingley, I was responding to an editor who was putting words in my mouth and lied in trying to entangle me in something I had no involvement in (and ought to apologize). Did you even read the sentence that you responded to? I didn't mention Tiraspol Times. As for edits of mine which are POV, instead of insinuating, why don't you do something constructively instead: point them out and let us correct them. I stand by my record, which shows that most of my time here is spent on exactly the opposite: Introducing balance into what has previously been a wrong and hopelessly onesided depiction of the issue. In that, I sometimes have to act as the devil's advocate, but don't confuse that with bias. - Mauco

Sorry master Mauco, I will try harder in future. Really though I personally mistrust many news sources simply because if they don't have any facts they will just make something up or copy what someone else has already reported as if it's fact because, as a news source, they have to to please their readers/viewers. I actually find wikipedia a bit dodgy on the information front in a lot of cases, but this particular page seems a bit different to most because it has a few people who suspect everything is propaganda so other people have to go out and try to prove that it isn't, finding real facts along the way. --Jonathanpops 20:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't apologize to you, Mauco, but I expect you to apologize from me, as you wrote that I lied. I told that you were trying to accuse Bonaparte as being Henco and I gave the refference [9]. Quote: "In case of User:Henco he may be Bonni or he may be MarkStreet". Bonni is Bonaparte. And telling that "it doesn't matter" is a way to be against investigation of this sockpuppetry case. I don't know about any sockpuppet on "my" side, if you have such suspicions why you didn't ask a RCU?--MariusM 21:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Numbers

For Bogdan and others, a source of numbers can be found here: http://www.cbpmr.net/?id=10&lang=ru (for instance No.6-7, 2006). Detailed. Personally, I would not rely on the Finance Ministry numbers, but the ones from the Republican Bank look OK. Also keep an eye on the press service of the Supreme Soviet. So far, they are off to a good start, at http://www.vspmr.org - Mauco 03:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Smuggling

Take a look at the main page article on smuggling. What evidence is there that woman are being smuggled. This is a Moldovan problem rather than a TD problem.

Is there a smuggling section on Moldova's page. I think not. So lets remove it. Otherwise it goes on BOTH sites

Feedback please MarkStreet Oct 12th

There certainly is evidence for trafficking of human beings for Transnistria, but I agree, the same goes for Moldova. If you wish to add that information to the Moldova article, feel free to do so, as long as you stay within Wikipedia guidelines. TSO1D 21:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should be on Moldova's page or Transniestria's page. It is akin to asking for a big crack cocaine section to being put on the USA page. It's not fair representation of the respective countries ans purely represents mud slinging. For example the claims of Gun smuggling were today wiped out when President Putindent his generals in to check. They reported that everything was stillthere and accounted for in the arms dumps. So that section needs to be changed too. see ::: http://www.tiraspoltimes.com ::: for full details MarkStreet oct 11th 2006

It can be mentioned. Some other country pages do it. This is from Guatemala: "However, corruption is still rampant at all levels of government. A huge cache of National Police files discovered in December 2005 revealed methods of public security officials to quell unrest of citizens during the Civil War." - Pernambuco 22:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Right or wrong, it is a big part of how the world currently sees Transnistria. Do not omit it, just deal with it fairly, truthfully and adhere to Wikipedia NPOV. - Mauco 23:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The EU has given TD a clean bill of health for its border controls just yesterday, see Tiraspoltimes.com. . It is time to delete this historical item. Lets remember even the great USA cannot control its Mexican border. Every border has leakage so the section is redundant and misleading. MarkStreet Oct 19 2006

The UN has now added its voice to state that there is no evidence to back the weapons smuggling claim. This surely is the end of this propaganda based slur. Time to delete this section MarkStreet oct 18

I have to oppose to the deletion of this section. However it must be rewritten along the lines that it was a massive campaign of defamation of the separatists, nothing was confirmed and even EU cleared the accusations. And it must be moved itno the History of Transnistria. `'mikkanarxi 21:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A "massive campaign of defamation"? Says who? WP:OR? :-) bogdan 21:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

What's your problem, man? I didn't write this into the article for you to throw WP-ORs around. And if you don't know who says, I don't know what you are doing here. `'mikkanarxi 22:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Editor of "Tiraspol Times" told that UN and EU cleared accusation of smuggling against Transnistria and Mikka imediatelly believed him. Are we going to transform Wikipedia in a section of "Tiraspol Times"?--MariusM 22:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, from an article on NYTimes written a few months ago:

In a recent six months, more than 40,000 tons of chicken was shipped, legally, into Transnistria through Black Sea ports in Ukraine, said experts sent by the European Union this year to monitor the border. Because that amounted to 146 pounds for each Transnistrian, something was clearly amiss. The chicken is reloaded into smaller trucks, often with makeshift refrigeration, and smuggled back into Ukraine. There it is sold below market rates, because it evaded customs duties and Ukrainian sanitary inspections, turning hefty profit -- for whom, exactly, is not clear -- of nearly $1,000 a ton.

Of course, it's a defamation! The Transnistrians really love to eat a lot of chicken. ;-) bogdan 22:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

How can you pay attention to "New York Times" when we have "Tiraspol Times"?--MariusM 22:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm is not helpful, both of you. mikkanarxi made a suggestion. You can debate it. Do not make fun of it. Look how I answered the other MarkStreet comment which I did not agree with. To convince him I did not make fun of him. I used an example from Guatemala. To show how that such a section is OK. - Pernambuco 22:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

We are different persons, we have different styles. Diversity is what makes this talk page usefull to read.--MariusM 22:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You call it "diversity", I call it "trolling". I expressed my opinion. I am aware I am not an expert here, therefore I did not edit the article. But the bunch of dogs is nevertheless right on my leg. As for chicken example, excuse me, it is idiotism (either of NYTimes or of myself): to smuggle chicken from Ukraine, then to smuggle them back into Ukraine to sell with lower prices??? This reminds me an old Russian joke about "Russian way of doing business": "to steal a crate of vodka, to sell bottles to recycler's, to buy two bottles of vodka for the recycling money and to drink thyem right away". Or am I missing something here? `'mikkanarxi 23:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, just noticed: your favorite "Tiraspol Times" writes that chickens were smuggled from moldova and then out to Ukraine. this makes more sense. and it also says that tiraspol cracked this down. `'mikkanarxi 23:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

On a further notice, your beacon of NPOV, the NYTimes, down the article writes: Tyson Foods, based in Springdale, Ark., said it shipped a "limited amount" of chicken to Moldova through Ukrainian ports. Did you happen to notice the "M"-named country here? This happens to nicely confirm this communist propaganda from Tiraspol Times. How about putting chicken-smuggling into the article about this country as well? `'mikkanarxi 00:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I hope more vandals will follow this shining example and will mark their edits as such. :D

Still, I wonder if the page should be semiprotected again? --Illythr 20:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Bogdan, was that really you? --Illythr 20:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it wasn't me. :-) bogdan 21:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I blocked Bonaparte and his little friend and sprotected the page. bogdan 21:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Okays. My first experience with people vandalizing my own user page, there. :-)

I kind of wonder who this Blurb sock guy was, though.

Our friend Boni has a few friends who follow him and troll against him. :-) bogdan 22:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Hm, technically, Blurb didn't do anything bad... --Illythr 23:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was just a sock-puppet. Its owner simply went back to his original account. :-) I have a few suspects (no, Boni, it's not Khoikhoi), but no real evidence. bogdan 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yikes, they're at it again! --Illythr 15:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok now to my edit on the page, that Independence entry looks weird... --Illythr 21:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Blurb sock is Khoikhoi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)....

Tyras

I understand that Tyras is the first recorded settlement in the area. Where does the information on prior inhabitants come from? --Illythr 19:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

There are archeological sites and one can identify which culture inhabited them. Ancient Greeks believed that Scythia region started at the Dniester, but Ptolemy names a few Dacian placenames (with the characteristic "-dava" ending) which were beyond the Dnister. The Dacian town of "Clepidava" was on the right bank and "Setidava" and "Susudava" between Dniester and Dnieper. bogdan 19:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Kievan Rus

At Kievan Rus article we have a map of this country [10], from where is not clear if Transnistria was part of it (maybe the northern area). Which historical refferences we have about the exact borders of Kievan Rus? Also, where Romanians part of the population of this country? Is possible, as at that time Romanian was not a written language, Slavonic was the language used in writing by all Romanians, the differences between Romanians and Slavs were not considered important as those people were both orthodox (and religion, not language was important in Middle Age). I heard about an Ukrainian hatman with a Romanian name: Dănilă Apostol.--MariusM 20:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That one: Danylo Apostol?--Illythr

Yes. I didn't knew that he already has a page at Wikipedia. In Middle Age Romanians and Slavs (no difference was at that time between Russians and Ukrainians) were considered orthodox brothers, Slavonic was the literary and "official" language for all Romanians (not only in Transnistria, but also in Moldavia, Walachia and Transylvania). This is why I believe that the borders in Middle Age does not necesarry match with etnolinguistic borders.--MariusM 20:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This map shows the Kievan Rus in the 11th century: [11]. Here it expands even into the region of Bessarabia. --Illythr 20:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know the source of this map, and which are the proofs about Southern borders of Kievan Rus.--MariusM 20:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it would be ideal if these maps had some sources. I'd prefer some contemporary documents, but archeological research would be great, too. :-) bogdan 20:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

You'll have to ask the author, User:PANONIAN himself on that one. I'm no historian myself.

Yes, no problem, here is source for my map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Russia_0900.gif I found that map somewhere on Internet and draw new one based on it. I cannot tell you more about its accuracy. PANONIAN (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you at least drop a link to where you found it? An orphan map is no good on Wikipedia, especially if its contents is contested. --Illythr 14:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops, seen it. Checking... --Illythr 14:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, www.ostu.ru and thanks to both of you. - Mauco 14:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, checked it. This guy is the original author of the digital map. --Illythr 15:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

He did a good work for a mechanical engineer and physicist.--MariusM 15:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you appreciate him. "Comparative history of states" is one of his main research interests, after all. :-) --Illythr 16:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I also checked with a reference from one of top Moldova historians in the West, Charles King. He confirms it. Transnistria (but not Moldova) was part of Kievan Rus. The border was the River Dniester for most of that time. There is a section called Territory and History on page 179 of his book "The Moldovans" where he writes the following: "Unlike the rest of the Republic of Moldova, Transnistria was never considered part of the traditional lands of Romanian settlement. The territory east of the Dnestr River belonged to Kievan Rus' and the kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia from the ninth to the fourteenth centuries." Published by Hoover Press, Studies of Nationalities series (Stanford University, the year 2000). - Mauco 14:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Want another reference which also states that Transnistria belonged to Kievan Rus at the time? Andrew Wilson, "The Ukrainians: Engaging the Eastern Diaspora", published in Nations Abroad: Diaspora Politics and International Relations in the Former Soviet Union. (Boulder, Colorada: Westview Press, 1998), page 116. So MariusM can safely remove his fact tag now. - Mauco 14:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If we look at the map revealed by User:PANONIAN not only Transnistria but also the entire Moldova belonged to Kievan Rus. The problem is like User:bogdangiusca told: there are plenty of modern-day nationalist claims but few original documents. Crimean Khanate should be mentioned: Dabija's book also mention the Tatars and Edisan article --MariusM 14:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you questioning just the map from Panonian and the ostu.ru reference? Or are you also questioning the accuracy of the references to Stanford University's Hoover Press and from Andrew Wilson's Ukrainian diaspora study? If so, on which grounds? - Mauco 14:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

---

I also think that MaGioZal was rather too quick to remove the reference only half an hour after you inserted the tags. Aren't we to wait a while, until someone knowledgeable has a chance to react?
Way too fast: Grand Duchy of Lithuania. --Illythr 20:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree we can keep the sentence for a while with a fact tag, until somebody will provide proper sources. The source of the map of Grand Duchy of Lithuania is the Lituanian Wikipedia (we need a better source). Anyhow, it doesn't show the population of Transnistria (I don't believe it was Lithuanian) at that time. From what I remember from school, the Eastern neighbours of Moldavia were the Tatars (Crimean Khanate), who often attacked it for robbery.--MariusM 20:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, the Crimean Khanate was in south, so it probably held only the southern part of Transnistria. bogdan 21:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a pic on Crimean Khanate: Image:1600.gif. bogdan 21:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, although that specific part of the Duchy article is sourced itself. Besides, the place was quite a contested area at the time, changing owners rather often. I also didn't understand the part about population. It doesn't have to have a Lithuanian population (an army is enough) to formally belong to the Lithuanian Duchy, don't you think? --Illythr 21:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the population was not Lithuanian, that Duchy was an empire, afterall. :-) bogdan 21:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, there's a problem with the borders in those times, as there are few contemporary sources, but many more claims by modern-days nationalists. :-) bogdan 21:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree, a Lithuanian Army was enough. From Crimean khanate map we can see that Transnistria was a disputed teritory even at that time (and no Lithuania around, only Poland). I believe is a general agreement to keep the fact tag now and to look for more informations. Or maybe we should vote at what country to asign Transnistria (Lithuania, Poland, Crimean Khanate, Kievan Rus)? :-) I read that in the time of Moldavian king Duca Vodă this area belonged also to Moldavia, I will check my sources.--MariusM 21:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

See m:voting is evil. ;-) —Khoikhoi 21:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh, sure, let's vote on who was the owner of Transnistria in the middle ages! :D

Seriously, though, I think it belonged to them all for various periods of time. I mean, we're talking about a period of about thousand years! :-P --Illythr 21:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Voting for whether a territory was part of a country is quite silly. :-) We'd better look for references instead. bogdan 21:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Great minds think alike, eh? ;-) Illythr

Well, on Wikipedia, great minds get edit conflicts. :-) bogdan 21:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's okay, as long as it's not "twitchy fingers". :-) --Illythr 21:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

---

MaGioZal probably meant this map:[12] --Illythr 22:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That map ([13]) it shows Bessarabia separate color from Podolia and Kherson. The river Nistru in as the border. The earliest I could find: Scythia. Shows the Sarmathia/Dacia border on the Nistru river. [14]. The one for the fact tag in fifteen century is (Part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania on 15th century) is this [15] - Pernambuco 02:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The different color means that the percentage of Jews in the Bessarabian Govt was 10-12 at the time. ;) --Illythr 11:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Moldovan rule in Transnistria

In the book of Nicolae Dabija - "Moldova de peste Nistru, vechi pămînt strămoşesc / Zadnestrovscaia Moldova, Isconnaia Naşa Zemlia", Chişinău, Hiperion publishing house 1990 - a small book edited in the period when Transnistrian conflict was at begining in 200000 copies (as claimed at the end of the book) - which is huge for a small country like Moldova, the following data are included:

• Dacian king Burebista ruled also in Transnistria (2500 years before)
• In 1455 the moldovans ruled the city of Lerici, where Dnieper went onto the sea (attention: Dnieper, not Dniester)
• The region between Dniester and Bug was called Oceacov, which was named Vozia by Moldovans and some foreign travelers believed that this region belonged to Moldova (example: a book printed in 1596 in Venetia by Gian Lorenzo D'Anania, but is not claimed that those travelers were right)
• Another italian traveler, Niccolo Barsi, wrote in 17th century that around Oceacov the population was Vlach, and moldovans were mentioned in the region also in 1709 by the monk Daniel Krmann and, in the same century, by french Reyssoneb.
• In 16th century the teritorry between Dniester and Dnieper belonged to Lithuania (this is an outside Wikipedia confirmation I expected)
• Afterwards, the part bellow Dubăsari belonged to nohai tatars, under the name of Edisan country, and the upper part belonged to Poland, as Podolia region.
• Russian cleric A. Lebedinţev, in his book "The khan's Ukraine" (Herson 1860) wrote that moldovans are the first inhabitants of the region
• In the Big Russian Enciclopedia published in 19th century, about Ananiev county (a city which belonged to Moldavian ASSR but now is in Ukraine) is written that Moldovans are the indigenous people.
• All travelers before 1792 talked about Moldovan or Tatar inhabited villages, not about Ukrainian or Russian. Example: Lawrin Piaseczynsky, ambasador of Poland's king Sigizmund 3rd at tatar khan Gazi Ghirai 2nd 1601-1603; Italian Giovanni Battista Malbi (Montalbanu) 1620, cossack Andrei Constantinov, send here by Russia in 1766
• Some moldovan kings gifted lands in Transnistria, as: Ion Vodă cel Cumplit (1574), Petru Şchiopul (1588), Ieremia Movilă (1593) - all this cases near Iahorlîc river
• The city Moghiliov-Podolski (Movilău) was founded by moldovan king Ieremia Movilă
• Ruxandra, the daughter of moldovan king Vasile Lupu, who married Timoşa Hmelniţki, received as gift from her father lands at Raşcov and Iampol
• In 1679 Duca Vodă was nominated by the Turks "ruler of Moldavia and hatman of Ukraine" and he used as capital 3 cities: Iaşi in Moldavia, Ţicănăuca on Transnistria, near Soroca and Nemirova, on the Bug river (it seems he ruled not only Transnistria, but some regions further East). A document about a propriety transaction on Coşniţa was written in Romanian at Duca Vodă capital of Ţicănăuca in 1683.
• Other Moldovan documents from 1714, 1717, 1726 tell about Moldovan jurisdiction in Transnistria
• From 40000 soldiers of Bogdan Hmelniţki, 10000 were moldovans (6 out of 13 "polkovniks")
• After Russian-Turkish war of 1735-1739 the peace treaty mentioned the limit of Moldavia at Bug and was signed not only by Turkey and Russia, but also by Todiraşcu "bivpitar" (pitar is breadmaker, bivpitar I can't translate), a representant of Moldavia's king Grigore Ghica.
• Starting with 1792, Mihail Strelbiţki (an ethnic Russian, as I know from other sources) moved his printing equipment from Iaşi to Dubăsari and was at that time the main publisher of Moldavian books (he published also in Russian and Greek). The first book of Romanian poetry - by Ioan Cantacuzino, was published at Dubăsari between 1793-1796.

I bring all this information from Dabija's book for a critical discussion.--MariusM 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Lithuanian confirmation. Was there any mention of Kievan Rus anywhere? - Mauco 00:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A technical note: Ideally, this should be discussed on History of Transnistria and major changes then moved here, afterwards. Many editors follow that page too but if you are afraid of leaving someone out, you can post a quick pointer here that a discussion has started there. Remember: detail there, summary here. - Mauco 00:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No mention of Kievan Rus in Dabija's book. I've put a fact tag in the article regarding Kievan Rus and I am waiting that somebody will bring evidence about it. Else, this statement should be removed.--MariusM 13:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A ethical note: since he has made his first contribution here, Mauco has attempted to create a slavs vs. non-slavs kinda situation. Starting from his unsupported Kievan Rus claims and his identification of the ancient Rus with the modern Russian people, continuing with his use of slav instead of Russian (or Russian colonist; see also this article on visitpmr.com to make an idea), and ending with such absurdities as the use of the verses of the Doina to claim that the land "was never considered part of the traditional lands of Romanian settlement" [16]. Marius, regarding the history of the area, you can use the work of Charles Upson Clark, Russia and Roumania on the Black Sea and particularily CHAPTER XXIX - THE MOLDAVIAN SOVIET REPUBLIC . Also you could use the De Administrando Imperio (external link) as to clarify the deal with the Varangians (not the Russians). You could contiue to use the following wikipedia articles Cumania, Crimean Khanate, New Russia, New Serbia, Potemkin village, Bessarabia Germans (as to make an idea on Russian policies), etc. You might also want to use what Volodymyr Antonovych wrote as early as 1885 "neither the right, nor the left of the Dniester belonged to the Galicia or other Russian princes". This also might come in use (see how many of the Trns goverment have Russian citisenship). Greier 08:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Might it, for once, be possible to focus our discussion on points that relate to editing issues, rather than playing the old hate-game and stooping to personal attacks? Surely by now, after you have already been blocked in the past, Greier, you should be aware of Wikipedia's strict policy against personal attacks. I also have no idea why you would link my name to an article on a Transnistria website which I am not involved in and which I have never written a single word for. If you want to put words into my mouth, you may do so on the basis of my verifiable editing record and not on other words on third party websites that I am not part of. Please remember that we are here to edit, and discussion in Talk pages should be focused on that particular purpose. - Mauco 13:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely every country and region on Earth has been occuppied by many different sets of people in the past? And, although the history is interesting and even used in arguments of rightful ownership etc, I personally don't think it should have too much bearing on the here and now article of Transnistria. I think the article should be about what's happening now, with a hint of the past perhaps but mostly about now and updated as new information arises. Possibly along the lines of the entry for Wales, which isn't a nation as such (like it says in the article) but a principality going for self-rule like Scotland did a while back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanpops (talk • contribs)

PS: <sarcasm>I'm sure someone who wrote a book named "Transnistria: Our Rightful(Native) Land" is THE neutral source in this matter.</sarcasm> --Illythr 16:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations for Tiraspol Times columnist User:William Mauco

We should congratulate wikipedian User:William Mauco (William Maurice) who just wrote an article for "Tiraspol Times" [17] (see end of article). His wikibreak was fruitfull. I allways believed that "Tiraspol Times" is the right place for Mauco's opinions.--MariusM 14:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ooh boy, gotta read it! :-) --Illythr 15:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a nice article, I like it. --Jonathanpops 16:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

What a mess ,have a look at this one :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6062044.stm BBC (published today) EvilAlex 18:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

What does that have to do with this? --Jonathanpops 18:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Russia is an EVIL DEVIL (like Mauco said) and BBC confirms !!! Honestlly i think that when Mauco wrote this atricle he was on drogs :) EvilAlex 19:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh, Putin really looks like he's going on a chainsaw rampage on that one. :-) Both the Moldovan and Transnistrain authorities have something to learn in the ways of refining their (currently very rough) propaganda methods from the author of that BBC article. Only the picture spoils that fine masterpiece. The reaction (comments) to it was quite healthy, though. No hateful flaming (almost)...

Alex, you're not helping your reputation (what little is left of it) on Wikipedia with such statements.

William, you don't even have to reply to this, Alex has hurt himself with that statement more than anyone else could. --Illythr 19:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well what can i say.. i don't think that if a persone uses word EVIL seven times and word DEVIL three times in an article are in a good state of mind. :( If you disagree then in this case whatever u think about my reputation doesn't influence me very much. Only criticism from a person with reliable reputation will influence me.
My philosophy is simple to say the true, only true even if you don't like it. EvilAlex 20:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have to disagree. When passing judgement to an article, I try to analyse it's contents and message, not count the words in it. And I'm not even remotely trying to influence you in any way. I merely pointed out that your point of view is going to have less and less support from other Wikipedians when they see it in its full glory of your own blatant statements. --Illythr 21:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the EVILS and the DEVILS, are you familiar with the word CONTEXT?--Jonathanpops 20:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever context is. If a person sees too much EVIL and too many DEVILS then he is in need of immediate medical attention. We shouldn't laugh at Mauco we should help him :)) EvilAlex 20:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, did you know that the "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" was nearly banned for racism, because the word "nigger" is used 215 times there? :-) --Illythr 20:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You compared article written by Mauco to a masterpiece. Are you trying to make a martyr from him? Why not to compare it to a Bible...EvilAlex 21:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I called the BBC article a masterpiece, I'm afraid you misread me. The irony was probably lost as well... --Illythr 21:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

And you yourself just used those words three times already, Alex! :-P --Illythr 20:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Because im laughing...EvilAlex 21:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

See, context is everything... ;-) --Illythr 21:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The way haw you see the world is everything, and that is what he wrote EvilAlex 21:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the context is all the facts around an issue, whereas your perception is what you think you know of it. Always strive to expand your perception to cover as much of the context as possible! :-) --Illythr 21:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, I suggest we cease with this flooding, as it is quite irrelevant to THIS article. --Illythr 21:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

“Well, the context is all the facts around an issue”
wrong:
context is a perception of what you think to be a reality and because human senses are not perfect you get a wrong cognitive representation of a reality which you call “facts”
Always try to get a picture of reality from as many perspective as possible and only in this way you will get the most complet cognitive representation ant the “facts” that will be much closer to the ULTIMATE TRUE
EvilAlex 22:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

By "Context" I meant all the surrounding facts (objective), and by "Perception" - human perspectives on those facts (subjective). It's really impossible to achieve true objectivity on any topic, but we can at least try. Nevertheless, an excellent piece of advice on your part that I hope everyone present will follow. :-)

Oh, and: The Ultimate Truth? There is none. For everyone, at least. But that's a tale for another time and place... --Illythr 22:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

We going around in circles “surrounding facts“ how can there be a “facts” is there is no true (“There is none “) ???? EvilAlex 23:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Alex, you're not helping this article by calling Russia "evil". Russia is just following their own goals using their official imperialist policies. (note that the Russians have a different kind of imperialism than the Americans) Russia simply does not care about the people of Transnistria or Moldova, but it just tries to keep as much as possible an influence, as the influence might be useful in the future. They lost their influence in the Baltic countries, but in Moldova/Transnistria and Georgia, there is still a fight. For some reason, Putin still sees the world as "us" vs. "them" (US/EU)... bogdan 22:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Putin is not the only one who feels that way. There's still a fair share of that "us vs them" cold war mentality among Russia-watchers in the States as well. Interesting subject, but Wikipedia is not the venue. Concentrate on what will further our collaborative editing. - Mauco 01:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with u, I don't glorify neither America or Russia. I called Russia as EVIL in context of Mauco article. That was the perceptions which I've got from reading it.EvilAlex 22:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Denigrating one side is actually worse that glorifying it, when the other involved parties are ignored. There's "PR" and there's "black PR". Russia is protecting its interests just like the other players. Ukraine, Romania and of course Moldova play a significant part in this issue as well as Russia and Transnistria, so casting the blame entirely upon one side while "tactfully" forgetting about all the others is... well, wrong IMO. And Alex, I don't think you need a context to call Russia "EVIL"(caps). Not anymore... :-( --Illythr 23:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all for letting me bask in my 5 seconds of "fame". It was just a guest column and I have not been asked to be a regular contributor. I don't know if they like it but I was allowed to write it with no censorship of any kind. I already announced it previously, here on this page.[18]. Now, I suggest that we cease with this flooding, like Illythr says. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. From WP:NOT: "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia" and that the focus should "not be social networking, but rather providing a foundation for effective collaboration." - Mauco 01:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Bolohovenians

What is a Bolohovenian? Did they exist? Never heard of them. Neither has Google[19] or Yahoo[20] The article said that they inhabited this land. - Pernambuco 22:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Those guys? Apparently, that how the old Russian chroniclers called the Vlachs. It's worth making a "bypass" here, methinks. --Illythr 22:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Correct name is Bolohoveni, Bogdan corrected the article.--MariusM 22:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, and by the way there is probable no need to "bypass" to Vlachs because the Bolohoveni already has a wikilink to there. - Pernambuco 22:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Not so excellent. The article is a bullshit. There is no "bolohoveni" in Russian chronicles. This is a Romanian mutation of the Old Slavic word: "vlach" in Old Slavonic is "voloch". "Volochove" is plural from "voloch". volohoveni is a brainless Romanian coinage similar to "moldoveni". And "bolohovenians" is double brainless iteration into English. In summary: there were no separate "bolohoveni" people, and at best this article must be a redirect to Vlachs, which must have a section about their historical names in various contemporary languages.

It it is interesting to mention that a similar confusion happened with Ingrians, and quite very recently, too. There was land of Ingria. A person from Ingria was called by Teutons "Ingerman", and their land is "Ingermanland". The latter was borroved into Russian during the times of Russian Empire and Russifies into "Ingermanlandia" And finally, some English smartass coined "Ingermanlandians" ! If you don't beieve me, check google.

In summary, internet is much more efficient in spreading of ignorance than of wisdom. `'mikkanarxi 23:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Lithuania and Poland

It seems that Transnistria was indeed nominally part of Lithuania and later Poland, but nobody actually enforced the rule over the region, presumably because it was underpopulated and not valuable enough to worth it. bogdan 22:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Râşcov in the north of Transnistria had a little bit of Polish rule. As the name shows, however, it was not founded by the Polish. - Mauco 01:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)