User talk:Captain Occam

Apology

In some comments I posted on various articles, which have now been administratively removed, I referred to you as a "creationist". In looking for the evidence I based this on, it now appears to me that I entirely misread it, and came to a completely wrong conclusion. Therefore, I apologize for calling you a creationist, and will attempt to be more accurate - both in general and concerning you - in the future. Yours, Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Instead of trying for what you post about me to be more accurate, I would rather you stop bringing me up in general. Is that option not on the table? --Captain Occam (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

That's entirely up to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Please don't try to put your behavior off onto me. The only thing that controls whether you continue bringing me up is how much attention you choose to pay to me. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but that simply isn't the case. You're not some innocent newbie being picked on for no good reason, you've been a disruptive element on Wikipedia for quite a while -- except, of course, for the period when you were site banned. If you do something that I see, and believe requires commenting on, I will do so. If you simply edit without causing trouble or disruption, you won't hear from me at all - so, you see, it's entirely your behavior which is the controlling factor. Don't worry, though, I won't say a thing to anyone about your apparent inability to graciously accept an apology when it's offered to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:12, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

How do you expect me to react to an apology that includes a built-in warning that you're going to continue talking about me and monitoring my edits? You've already told me in Jimbo's user talk that you're unable to assume good faith about any edit I make anywhere on the project. ("You used up your stock of AGF a long, long time ago.") Don't give me this story about my behavior being what determines the outcome--you've already told me point-blank that you're going to assume bad faith about my edits regardless of what I do.

Please understand that at this stage, I don't actually expect to change your attitude about this. But down the road, I would like to be able to show other people that I asked you nicely to stop trying to police my edits, and that you refused. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom 2017 election voter message

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E-mail

I received an unsolicted e-mail from you, using Wikipedia's e-mail link.

I have no need of either correction nor advice from the like of you. You are specifically directed not to e-mail me again. If you do, I will take the matter directly to ArbCom. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:28, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I'm curious to see how that works out for you. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:32, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration Enforcement

I am required to notify you that I am filing a complaint against you on Arbitration Enforcement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:23, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked

Per this thread at WP:AE, I have indefinitely blocked you and disabled your use of the Wikipedia email system. This is a standard admin block, and not an arbitration enforcement action, and as such, can be appealed through the normal processes, which you can find at Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Clarification request

In light of your block, your clarification request has been declined. For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 15:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed on the Unblock Ticket Request System:

Captain Occam (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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UTRS appeal #21796 was submitted on Jun 11, 2018 22:36:52. This review is now closed.

--UTRSBot (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

This user is asking that their block be reviewed:

Captain Occam (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

I previously made an unblock request via UTRS, and in response I was instructed to make the same request using the unblock template in my user talk. This is a truncated version of my UTRS request.

Over the past month, I've tried to discuss an issue affecting the basis for my block on the ArbCom mailing list, but ArbCom ultimately told me that this particular issue can't be addressed privately, and that if I wish to raise it I must do so in a public request. Since I'm currently blocked, doing that isn't possible at the moment. However, ArbCom also has told me that since I'm under a standard admin block, it isn't within their remit to review the block or grant an exception to it. I contacted an arbitration clerk, user:Penwhale, about how I should proceed in this situation, and he instructed me to request an unblock under the following conditions:

1. If unblocked, the only edits I will make will be to raise this issue with ArbCom (along with required notifications), and nothing else. I'll also disable my Wikipedia e-mail feature, so that there can be no suspicion that I'm using Wikipedia for anything else besides the ArbCom inquiry. (This second part was my own idea, not Penwhale's.)
2. After my request to ArbCom is closed, if no action has been taken to modify my block, I'll be blocked again under the same terms as my current block, without prejudice to making a normal unblock request at a later point.

Since what I'm requesting isn't a full lifting of my block, I don't think this is the time or the place to discuss the block's merits. However, if admins want more background about the basis for it, I recommend reading the request for clarification that I made shortly before being blocked, along with the responses from arbitrators: [1] Please note that the issue I've recently tried to discuss with ArbCom is not the same one that I raised there; it's a separate issue that I haven't brought up in public yet. I think it's too complex to describe in an unblock request, but I've explained it in detail to Penwhale, so if possible I would like whichever admin reviews this request to please contact him for more details.

Although I'm making this unblock request in public, I also ask that whatever discussion admins have about it please occur somewhere other than one of the public noticeboards. Past noticeboard threads related to the R&I arbitration case have sometimes become magnets for harassment and personal attacks, against me or other users, and I'd like my request to be handled in a way that doesn't risk a repeat of that outcome. Captain Occam (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Notes:

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If you ask the blocking administrator to comment on this request, replace this template with the following, replacing "blocking administrator" with the name of the blocking admin:

{{Unblock on hold |1=blocking administrator |2=I previously made an unblock request via UTRS, and in response I was instructed to make the same request using the unblock template in my user talk. This is a truncated version of my UTRS request. Over the past month, I've tried to discuss an issue affecting the basis for my block on the ArbCom mailing list, but ArbCom ultimately told me that this particular issue can't be addressed privately, and that if I wish to raise it I must do so in a public request. Since I'm currently blocked, doing that isn't possible at the moment. However, ArbCom also has told me that since I'm under a standard admin block, it isn't within their remit to review the block or grant an exception to it. I contacted an arbitration clerk, [[user:Penwhale]], about how I should proceed in this situation, and he instructed me to request an unblock under the following conditions: # If unblocked, the only edits I will make will be to raise this issue with ArbCom (along with required notifications), and nothing else. I'll also disable my Wikipedia e-mail feature, so that there can be no suspicion that I'm using Wikipedia for anything else besides the ArbCom inquiry. (This second part was my own idea, not Penwhale's.) # After my request to ArbCom is closed, if no action has been taken to modify my block, I'll be blocked again under the same terms as my current block, without prejudice to making a normal unblock request at a later point. Since what I'm requesting isn't a full lifting of my block, I don't think this is the time or the place to discuss the block's merits. However, if admins want more background about the basis for it, I recommend reading the request for clarification that I made shortly before being blocked, along with the responses from arbitrators: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=835271663#Clarification_request:_Race_and_intelligence] Please note that the issue I've recently tried to discuss with ArbCom is not the same one that I raised there; it's a separate issue that I haven't brought up in public yet. I think it's too complex to describe in an unblock request, but I've explained it in detail to Penwhale, so if possible I would like whichever admin reviews this request to please contact him for more details. Although I'm making this unblock request in public, I also ask that whatever discussion admins have about it please occur somewhere other than one of the public noticeboards. Past noticeboard threads related to the R&I arbitration case have sometimes become magnets for harassment and personal attacks, against me or other users, and I'd like my request to be handled in a way that doesn't risk a repeat of that outcome. [[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam#top|talk]]) 23:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC) |3 = ~~~~}}

If you decline the unblock request, replace this template with the following code, substituting {{subst:Decline reason here}} with a specific rationale. Leaving the decline reason unchanged will result in display of a default reason, explaining why the request was declined.

{{unblock reviewed |1=I previously made an unblock request via UTRS, and in response I was instructed to make the same request using the unblock template in my user talk. This is a truncated version of my UTRS request. Over the past month, I've tried to discuss an issue affecting the basis for my block on the ArbCom mailing list, but ArbCom ultimately told me that this particular issue can't be addressed privately, and that if I wish to raise it I must do so in a public request. Since I'm currently blocked, doing that isn't possible at the moment. However, ArbCom also has told me that since I'm under a standard admin block, it isn't within their remit to review the block or grant an exception to it. I contacted an arbitration clerk, [[user:Penwhale]], about how I should proceed in this situation, and he instructed me to request an unblock under the following conditions: # If unblocked, the only edits I will make will be to raise this issue with ArbCom (along with required notifications), and nothing else. I'll also disable my Wikipedia e-mail feature, so that there can be no suspicion that I'm using Wikipedia for anything else besides the ArbCom inquiry. (This second part was my own idea, not Penwhale's.) # After my request to ArbCom is closed, if no action has been taken to modify my block, I'll be blocked again under the same terms as my current block, without prejudice to making a normal unblock request at a later point. Since what I'm requesting isn't a full lifting of my block, I don't think this is the time or the place to discuss the block's merits. However, if admins want more background about the basis for it, I recommend reading the request for clarification that I made shortly before being blocked, along with the responses from arbitrators: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=835271663#Clarification_request:_Race_and_intelligence] Please note that the issue I've recently tried to discuss with ArbCom is not the same one that I raised there; it's a separate issue that I haven't brought up in public yet. I think it's too complex to describe in an unblock request, but I've explained it in detail to Penwhale, so if possible I would like whichever admin reviews this request to please contact him for more details. Although I'm making this unblock request in public, I also ask that whatever discussion admins have about it please occur somewhere other than one of the public noticeboards. Past noticeboard threads related to the R&I arbitration case have sometimes become magnets for harassment and personal attacks, against me or other users, and I'd like my request to be handled in a way that doesn't risk a repeat of that outcome. [[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam#top|talk]]) 23:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC) |decline = {{subst:Decline reason here}} ~~~~}}

If you accept the unblock request, replace this template with the following, substituting Accept reason here with your rationale:

{{unblock reviewed |1=I previously made an unblock request via UTRS, and in response I was instructed to make the same request using the unblock template in my user talk. This is a truncated version of my UTRS request. Over the past month, I've tried to discuss an issue affecting the basis for my block on the ArbCom mailing list, but ArbCom ultimately told me that this particular issue can't be addressed privately, and that if I wish to raise it I must do so in a public request. Since I'm currently blocked, doing that isn't possible at the moment. However, ArbCom also has told me that since I'm under a standard admin block, it isn't within their remit to review the block or grant an exception to it. I contacted an arbitration clerk, [[user:Penwhale]], about how I should proceed in this situation, and he instructed me to request an unblock under the following conditions: # If unblocked, the only edits I will make will be to raise this issue with ArbCom (along with required notifications), and nothing else. I'll also disable my Wikipedia e-mail feature, so that there can be no suspicion that I'm using Wikipedia for anything else besides the ArbCom inquiry. (This second part was my own idea, not Penwhale's.) # After my request to ArbCom is closed, if no action has been taken to modify my block, I'll be blocked again under the same terms as my current block, without prejudice to making a normal unblock request at a later point. Since what I'm requesting isn't a full lifting of my block, I don't think this is the time or the place to discuss the block's merits. However, if admins want more background about the basis for it, I recommend reading the request for clarification that I made shortly before being blocked, along with the responses from arbitrators: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=835271663#Clarification_request:_Race_and_intelligence] Please note that the issue I've recently tried to discuss with ArbCom is not the same one that I raised there; it's a separate issue that I haven't brought up in public yet. I think it's too complex to describe in an unblock request, but I've explained it in detail to Penwhale, so if possible I would like whichever admin reviews this request to please contact him for more details. Although I'm making this unblock request in public, I also ask that whatever discussion admins have about it please occur somewhere other than one of the public noticeboards. Past noticeboard threads related to the R&I arbitration case have sometimes become magnets for harassment and personal attacks, against me or other users, and I'd like my request to be handled in a way that doesn't risk a repeat of that outcome. [[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam#top|talk]]) 23:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC) |accept = accept reason here ~~~~}}

• Just two comments as the blocking admin: while this is not an AE block, so any administrator may lift it without my consent, this was based on the rough consensus of administrators at AE. As such I think an unblock would be best to go to AN even though it technically doesn’t have to. 2) I’d encourage the reviewing admin to read the UTRS appeal and the comments I put in there and Penwhale did as well. Namely, in my view Captain Occam lied in his UTRS request. That might be a factor in favour of just declining this outright. I don’t feel very strongly either way about this block, and I’ll leave it up to others to decide, but I thought those pieces of material fact were important for any reviewer to know. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Could you please clarify what you feel that I've lied about? It's possible that I've made a mistake or oversimplified something, but I don't think that I stated any deliberate falsehoods.

After putting some thought into this, I have an idea what you're referring to: I said in my UTRS appeal that I thought the blocking admin supported me being unblocked under these conditions. My comment about that was based on an exchange I had with Penwhale in which he said that he had talked to you on IRC, and that you felt that you shouldn't lift the block unless it was discussed at AN first. My (apparently wrong) assumption was that if you were opposed to my being unblocked under these conditions, you wouldn't have offered that suggestion about how to proceed.

Is that what you're referring to? If it was, that wasn't a deliberate lie, but a case of me assuming too much based on what Penwhale told me (and I apologize for doing that). --Captain Occam (talk) 00:20, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I was ambiguous because I wanted to respect the privacy of the UTRS ticket, but I’ll explain more now since you asked: Yes, that is what I’m referencing, but your explanation here doesn’t make it any better: you didn’t once mention AN in the UTRS ticket even though you apparently knew that I thought there should be a discussion there and that I thought this should be done in public, you also did not just claim that I didn’t oppose the unblock, but that I supported it: I don’t. I’m neutral on it, which is very different than supporting. I was also unfamiliar with any proposed unblock conditions. I’ll let Penwhale speak for himself as to if he feels you misrepresented him. Anyway, I’m not going to comment more on this, but I did want for the reviewing admin to be aware. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I feel that a lot of the trouble I've gotten into at Wikipedia has been the result of people attributing a malicious purpose to mistakes that I made from misreading social cues. It was clueless of me to assume you supported unblocking me based on what Penwhale told me, but cluelessness isn't the same as deliberately lying. I'm autistic, so I've sometimes had this problem in real life also. I think it would be a benefit to everyone if the Wikipedia community could learn to assume no clue in these types of situations. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll chime in here. Echoing what Tony said above, I'm also not very happy as to have to explain to Tony (in the same UTRS) that what I told you is very different from what you posted: (1) I never once said whether Tony supported it, only mentioning that he mentioned AN; (2) I also never once said that I supported the unblock - because I am RL friends with the person acting as our intermediate, it wouldn't have been correct for me to attempt to influence the unblock decision. I merely stated that self-offering the unblock condition would result in a higher chance of you being unblocked to raise the issue. Saying in your unblock request that I supported your unblock is, in fact, untrue and unfortunately misrepresenting me. I will take your comment above this as an apology, but please be careful to not assume what people meant in messages. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:59, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I have to be more careful about that. What I should've done is ask you about this before assuming it was the case. I'll try not to make this mistake again. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:26, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I would be willing to unblock for you to make a request to the committee. I have two provisos:

• I've emailed the committee to ask if there is any point allowing you to make a request at ARCA; if any such request would just be rejected out-of-hand, I don't see any point in the unblock (I'm not asking them to pre-judge the case, just whether it would cross the bar of being considered at all). I'm waiting for their response.
• An unblock would be on the basis that you are banned from everywhere except ARCA and this page. Can you please confirm that this is in line with your expectation?

@TonyBallioni: I don't see the point in taking this to AN if the unblock is on the basis of such tight restrictions, but if you seriously object then please let me know. GoldenRing (talk) 11:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

• GoldenRing, while it is a regular admin block and you are free to do so, I am also of the opinion that individual administrators as a matter of practice should not unilaterally undo blocks that were taken on the basis of consensus. I am neutral on any unblock here, but for the fact that there was a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators to block, I think it would be irresponsible to unblock without taking it to AN, so I strongly object. I also am beyond confused as to why you would even want to make such unblock conditions. It’s a waste of time for the sake of wasting time if the end result is that the committee rules at ARCA but he stays indefinitely blocked by community consensus or individual adminstrator action. So, to answer your question: yes, I strongly oppose this on multiple grounds. I think an unblock here shouldn’t be only for the sake of ARCA, and if it is beyond that, I think it needs to go to AN. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  • GR, just reread the request (I was recalling a convo with Penwhale about his general request to be unblocked and responding to that, not the blue box, which is why I was confused.) Your conditions make more sense now, but my answer remains the same: I think it’s time wasting for the sake of time wasting under these conditions, and I’ll go further and say it’s an attempt to try to get the committee to review a block outside their normal remit, and I also think that any unblock of this account in general needs to go to AN. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I agree to the conditions you've described, with the one exception that when I make the ARCA request, I'll have to be able to post the required notifications to other users potentially affected by it. Aside from that, though, I understand that I'll be banned from all pages aside from ARCA and my user talk. (Please note that the request I would be making is a request for clarification, not an amendment request. It isn't about my block itself, but it's about a question that affects the basis for it.)

I also want to reiterate that if at all possible, I would like my request to not be discussed at AN. Aside from the reason I mentioned in the unblock template, I also don't think my request can be adequately evaluated without reviewing the background information that I've sent to Penwhale, which I would prefer to not be posted in public. If it's your view that I shouldn't be unblocked unilaterally by a single admin, is there another place where my request could be discussed with other admins, such as on IRC? --Captain Occam (talk) 13:01, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

That background information is not private as evidenced by the fact that the committee has declined to review this block on that basis. Knowing what it is in general terms, I also think it’s a distraction from the reason you were blocked: using email to nibble around the edges of an ArbCom imposed ban and to try to organize editing task forces in secret. Those were considered disruptive enough by administrators at AE to merit an indef block just under regular admin discretion, and likely would have resulted in one at ANI regardless of the ArbCom restrictions because that type of thing is disruptive and cuts away at the trust of the community, especially when done by an editor who has had issues in the area in the past. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni: I think that if there's any prospect of success at ARCA, and the committee has refused to hear the matter privately, they should be given the opportunity as a matter of fairness. I also don't think unilaterally undoing a consensus-endorsed block solely for the purpose of an appeal is much outside norms; but at any rate I will see what the committee says. I'm a bit perplexed about why the committee would do this - it seems on the extreme end of bureaucratic to me - which is why I've asked them for clarification about whether there is any point in all of this. GoldenRing (talk) 13:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

TonyBallioni: for the most part the information I'm referring to isn't something that I've tried to discuss with ArbCom yet. Has Penwhale shown it to you? You seem to be making assumption about what it involved that aren't accurate.

I don't dispute the basis for my block itself. However, the initial consensus in the AE report about me had been to give me a standard one-month AE block, and the information I'm referring to concerned the basis for the decision to make it indefinite instead. For example, one of the main reasons for making it indefinite was the assumption about what my motives were for becoming involved in the psychometrics task force. I think I can demonstrate that this assumption was incorrect, but doing so would rely on material I've written for other websites, including some where I use my real name.

I'm pinging @Penwhale: here, because I don't feel that it's productive for us to argue about the contents of something when it isn't clear whether you've seen it or not, and when I don't want to describe it in detail. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:49, 4 July 2018 (UTC)