Talk:2019 World Rally Championship

Rally Australia

Rally Australia's contract as WRC rally end with 2018. It's definitely not confirmed in 2019 calendar, speculations even say New Zealand could take Australia's place. "Calendar of next #WRC season will need to be confirmed by FIA's World Motor Sport Council. The WMSC next meet on 12 October in Paris, until then calendar information is speculative." I'm copying from the source that Prisonermonkeys thinks confirms it as WRC rally:

“We would like to retain WRC in Australia, so I’d like to look at some options,” said Rainsford.

“We have a deal on the table for here next year, but a lot of what happens in the future depends on New South Wales government [funding].”

How could you understand that source so incorrectly? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

"We would like to retain WRC in Australia, so I’d like to look at some options,” said Rainsford.

He does not say that they do not have a contract—only that he wants the event to have a long-term future.

"We have a deal on the table for here next year, but a lot of what happens in the future depends on New South Wales government [funding].”

Where does he say there is no funding for 2019? All he says is "the future" without putting a timeframe on it. Indeed "we have a deal on the table" is a colloquialism that means there is an agreement in place.

"How could you understand that source so incorrectly?"

Nothing that he says suggests that there is no agreement for 2019. 1.129.107.76 (talk) 13:25, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The rally is held and they would like to retain WRC in Australia. The deal is with funding and government, not with WRC. The rally can still be held without wrc as national event. That's it, you have to prove they have an agreement with WRC to include it in Wikipedia (these are the guidelines, but until October everything is speculating). --Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Up to speed on Rally Australia running in 2019 (19th Jul 2018) RALLY Australia's bid to retain its place on the World Rally Championship calendar next year should be known next month. "We will know most likely during the month of August," Rainsford told Speedcafe.com. After winning a three-year calendar deal in 2014, Rally Australia secured a one year contract from the WRC Promoter to host this year's final round from November 15-18. "We would be happy if we wrapped another a three-year deal but at this stage they're (WRC) not keen on doing three-year deals, although I expect that for Kenya (which is set to return to the calendar from 2020)," Rainsford said.

So, news for Australia's event are expected in August. Don't rush. Found some speculations about other events: [1] --Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't care what's speculated. You cannot remove well-sourced content bases on speculation. 1.144.111.104 (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

What's wrong with you? Do you understand that this article is about 2019 World Rally Championship? Read this article again. You don't have it well sourced, wishful thinking maybe, nothing more. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

If Rally Australia is not in the calendar next year (and run as a national event), then there's no reason to add it here as a planned rally. Don't add false statements. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

If they have a contract today and that contract is torn up tomorrow, does that make it a "false statement" if the article says that they have a contract today? No, it doesn't. The article must reflect what the sources say, not what we think will happen. 1.144.111.104 (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Contract with who? We don't really care if they have a contract with the government or funding. We care if the rally is confirmed in the calendar, but is has never been. Is Calls to relocate Rally Australia from 2019 the only source you got? The date is WEDNESDAY 22ND NOVEMBER, 2017 and the next year means 2018, not 2019. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Calendar and Rally Japan

If you are adding Rally Japan to the list based on this article https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/138171/rally-japan-gets-goahead-from-wrc then you should also mention what's in the article: A final decision will be made at the World Motor Sport Council meeting in Paris on October 12. "The proposal will now go to the FIA World Motor Sport Council where we assume we will get a positive approval to bring the rally back to Japan and then the event will take place from 2019 for probably four years. — so it's not 100% final yet. You can't just cherry pick a part of that news report and ignore the rest of it. Like I mentioned in the edit summary and in the previous discussion with Rally Australia, the date (Oct 12) is important because if any premature conclusions of calendar predictions are made, that's a note how long the calendar is not 100% final. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Tvx1, Unnamelessness, Kovpastish do you have an opinion here? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can see, they have a deal/contract to hold the race in 2019. As far as I know that meets the standard of inclusion we use for all future season WP:Motor articles. None of the races on 2019 Formula One World Championship have received final FIA approval either, yet we include them. They are contracted for said and season and we introduced them as such.Tvx1 17:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

@Tvx1: So, can we make 2020 season article, and write that Kenya has a contract? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but shouldn't we include the date when the final calendar is revealed? Isn't the World Motor Sport Council meeting important for us? In comparison 2026 Winter Olympics includes "The host city will be selected at the 134th IOC Session on 11 September 2019 in Milan, Italy." --Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't see the significance of the date. A calendar needs to be published for the championship to go ahead; that's a foregone conclusion. So all the line does is draw attention to the date. Why is 12 September so important? What does publishing then do that publishing on 11 or 13 September does not? 1.129.109.103 (talk) 09:22, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Did you know... that September is not actually October? But why is that date important? - Because from this article (currently) we can find that: 1. Tänak & Mikkelsen have active contracts. 2. Rally Japan has a contract with WRC (reality is actualy different, cuz it's not confirmed). We can't really find out anything more about 2019 WRC season. What we could find out - 1. Any other driver tied to a team? - not that we know of; When we do we know? - we don't know. 2. What rallies are planned - we don't know, because the calendar is not decided yet. When do we know? - Oh, we do actually know that, it the 12th of October. But that's it. Nothing more to write (or read from the article)! I'd say the current article is really pointless. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Look at any other article for an upcoming championship. None of them detail when a calendar is due to be published. 1.129.110.209 (talk) 04:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Not 100% confirmed yet so no, I wouldn't include it right now. This source: https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/august-2018/japan-agreement/page/5684--12-12-.html also says a candidate event, to make sure all the standards for a World Rally Event is met, will be held in early November. Kovpastish (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

The release date of the calendar is not so important — It does not affect the 2019 season. Of course, I have no objection to the accession of the date. It does not affect the readability as well after all. — Unnamelessness (talk) 03:21, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Clearly this anon user wont stop the edit war. I dont know if the person cant read or what is his problem. I have told this several times that before the Motorsport Council meeting, no rally has a contract. It is not a village sport, these are FIA rules. If you have a proper source to prove me wrong, please provide it. But in reality none of the sources can say that a rally has a contact with WRC, because it has to be confirmed in that meeting! Please read WP:CRYSTAL. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

"Clearly this anon user wont stop the edit war. I dont know if the person cant read or what is his problem."

Is it really edit-warring when I am undoing someone's incompetence? It's a bit rich of you to throw around accusations that people are not reading sources when you clearly haven't read them yourself.

"I have told this several times that before the Motorsport Council meeting, no rally has a contract."

Which just goes to show how little you understand the subject. A contract is signed between the event organisers and the rally promoter. The WMSC doesn't come into it until they assign the event a specific date on the calendar. That's why the section is called "list of planned rallies" and not "calendar". It's a separation of powers that applies to every FIA-sanctioned championship in the world.

"If you have a proper source to prove me wrong, please provide it."

The source that I have provided is adequate. It clearly states that dates for 2019 rallies are being discussed, and they could not be discussed without a contract. 1.144.107.172 (talk) 04:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

You have not provided any evidence that they have a contract. Certainly not this source, neither your last attempt to add Rally Australia. Anything can be discussed without a contract, or is that WP:OR? You are trying to suck something out of a source that does not exist, which is WP:CRYSTAL. Please do read those policies. Btw, Rally Sweden has already announced the 2019 dates - 14-17 Feb. Do something else for 9 days and come back on 12 Oct to share your brilliant knowledge of WRC. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 07:16, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

"Rally Sweden has already announced the 2019 dates - 14-17 Feb."

So why isn't it in the list? They cannot announce dates for the rally if they don't have a contract.

"come back on 12 Oct to share your brilliant knowledge of WRC"

Shouldn't be too hard, seeing as how you still haven't figured out that I'm Prisonermonkeys. After all, I'm not the one who claimed that a rally has to have a contract with the WMSC. 1.144.107.10 (talk) 10:04, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Because any one of the rallies could lose their place as WRC event. Rallies are still held on national and/or ERC level. None of the places are guaranteed. Rally Poland for example is held every year. Does it mean that they are automatically WRC event - ofcourse not, they lost their place after 2017. Any one of the 2018 rallies could be dropped just like Poland. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Where are the news about contracts? Nowhere, because any announcement would be premature. We don't care if a contract is in someone's drawer. No official announcement, no mention in Wikipedia. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:15, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I see you haven't learned a thing about Wikipedia since you updated the 2010 and 2011 articles with those statistics tables. Case in point:

"Because any one of the rallies could lose their place as WRC event."

But you also said:

"You are trying to suck something out of a source that does not exist, which is WP:CRYSTAL."

One moment you're criticising me for breaking CRYSTAL despite providing a source and then the next you're breaking CRYSTAL yourself without a source. You said it yourself:

"Because any one of the rallies could lose their place as WRC event."

You are speculating (the emphasis is mine) that those rallies may not take place in the future regardless of whether or not they have a contract. That's CRYSTAL, plain and simple. So why is it okay for you to break CRYSTAL while I have to observe it? I think you put it best:

"If you have a proper source to prove me wrong, please provide it."

So please, provide sources. You cite Rally Poland as an example of an event that was removed from the calendar, but if you actually bothered to read the articles and the sources provided, you would see that the FIA threatened the future of the event's World Championship status multiple times due to safety concerns before they dropped the event. So, when you say:

"Because any one of the rallies could lose their place as WRC event."

That suggests that you have reason to believe that the rallies in Australia, Mexico, Monte Carlo, Sweden and Wales will not be going ahead. What is your justification for that and more importantly, do you have a source to support it? I am guessing that the answer to both is "no", in which case I would suggest that you stop citing policies that you clearly don't understand and that—given the importance of CRYSTAL—you stop editing Wikipedia until you do understand it. You're not helping. All you're doing is creating more work for other editors. 1.144.106.32 (talk) 23:43, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Bla-bla-bla. Provide me a source that verifies any of those rallies actually having a contract with WRC Promoter. Totally offtopic with 2010 and 2011 statistics table, and also delusional - check history and you find out that all I did was revert your removal of those tables, I did not add nor update those. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:42, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Why do you think we only add which crew drives on which round after each entry list, rather than writing "all rounds" - even when they actually have a contract to do the whole season? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:49, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

"Provide me a source that verifies any of those rallies actually having a contract with WRC Promoter."

Oh, I will—once you provide a source for the following:

"I have told this several times that before the Motorsport Council meeting, no rally has a contract."

Ordinarily, the Autosport source that I originally provided would be enough. However, you have made the claim that rallies need a contract with the WMSC before they can be included. I would like to see a source supporting that claim because it fundamentally changes the sources that I need to provide.

"Totally offtopic with 2010 and 2011 statistics table"

Not at all. You want me to provide sources to support claims, but how can I have any confidence that you will accept a valid source is a valid source when I have reason to believe that you don't understand the policies that you are trying to enforce?

"also delusional"

I'm not the one who criticised another editor for breaking CRYSTAL despite their providing a source and then went ahead and broke CRYSTAL. 1.144.106.32 (talk) 03:04, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm done wasting my time over your nonsense. Unless you come up with a valid source, your words are worthless. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 03:21, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I need to know what you would define to be a "valid source" given that you have provided contradictory definitions.

Is it this:

"I have told this several times that before the Motorsport Council meeting, no rally has a contract."

Or is it this?

"Provide me a source that verifies any of those rallies actually having a contract with WRC Promoter."

On the one hand, you say the rallies need a contract with the WMSC, but then you say they need a contract with the WRC Promoter. The WMSC and the WRC Promoter are not the same organisation, so which is acceptable? If I show that they have a contract with the WRC Promoter, you'll just say "that's not good enough because they need a contract with the WMSC". If I show that they have a contract with the WMSC, you'll just say "that's not good enough because they need a contract with the WRC Promoter". You've created a paradox here which cannot be resolved. 1.144.106.32 (talk) 03:44, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2018

in 2.2 Calendar Changes 3rd sentence "The rally’s return stremmed from" spelling should be "stemmed" Stickler4 (talk) 07:55, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

 Done Thank-you for pointing that! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 08:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request, 4 October

Please restore this edit. The World Motorsport Council is debating where these five events will appear on the 2019 calendar. As the WMSC is the only body with the power to approve the calendar, it is clear that these five events are currently planned to take part. Whether or not they appear on the final calendar is beside the point: as of right now, they are planned to go ahead according to one of the most reliable sources on the subject, which will be included in the article as a result of restoring that edit. 1.144.106.11 (talk) 06:59, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to tag @MelanieN here and ask that she restore the edit as she originally protected the page. 1.144.106.11 (talk) 06:59, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I only protected the page; I do not have an opinion about the content. You need to discuss this with User:Pelmeen10 - and anyone else who has recently been involved in editing the article or the talk page. Whenever you have a disagreement with someone about content, discuss it at the talk page - not in edit summaries while repeatedly reinserting your version. --MelanieN (talk) 14:51, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

@MelanieN —

"You need to discuss this with Pelmeen10"

I'm trying to, but he clearly does not understand the issue. Certainly not as well as he thinks he does. He has already asked me to provide sources that live up to two different, contradictory standards, and when I point this out to him and ask him to decide which standard he wants the sources to meet, he refuses to take part in the discussion. He has also accused me of breaking WP:CRYSTAL despite providing a reliable source, only to the go and break it himself and my request to see a source to support his claim falls on deaf ears. How can I discuss this with him when he is constantly moving the goalposts? 1.144.106.35 (talk) 22:45, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Taking place (rally event) does not mean it's automatically a WRC2019 event. Pointless to go over and over and over again on the same subject. For example there are lots of drivers currently under a contract with teams - Latvala&Lappi @ Toyota, Breen&Ostberg @ Citroen. I wonder why didn't you come up with an idea to list those here also. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:27, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

"I wonder why didn't you come up with an idea to list those here also."

Because I don't have sources to support their inclusion. If you do, you should add them.

"Taking place (rally event) does not mean it's automatically a WRC2019 event."

The section is called "list of planned events". The source I provided makes it clear that those five rallies are planned to be run as part of the World Championship. If they are not included on the final calendar for whatever reason, that does not change the fact that they are planned right now. 1.144.106.35 (talk) 22:45, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Rally Chile confirmed

Today, october 4th, one of the members of the FIA World Council, Carlos García Remohí, confirmed that WRC will land in Chile for the first time in 2019. Here is the source (automatically translated): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.emol.com%2Fnoticias%2FDeportes%2F2018%2F10%2F04%2F922776%2FChile-recibira-en-2019-por-primera-vez-el-Mundial-de-Rally-y-tendra-nuevamente-una-fecha-de-la-Formula.html&edit-text=&act=url — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainQuetzal (talk • contribs) 14:32, 4 October 2018 (UTC)