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The nature of existence

Philosophy is not simply the study of problems. That description is the death of philosophy. It is intended to be descriptive in a math-language sort of way, but it does nothing to describe the fullness of philosophical study as normal language is not math-language, and philosophy is not based on problems though it does approach them. It shouldn't be the first line of description. When I search google it says that Wikipedia says, "Philosophy (from Greek φιλοσοφία, philosophia, literally "love of wisdom") is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language." And I would add "the nature of" to the existence part, and not delete the whole thing and replace it with problems but hey, that's just me. ~ R.T.G 12:19, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh I've mixed it up, but it shouldn't say problems first. Philosophy is about the why of everything. Problems are just a part of everything, not the everything itself. Philosophy is the parent of modern science. The study of everything. ~ R.T.G 12:22, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree, I think philosophy is more about aiming to find answers to fundamental questions re existence etc., rather than seeing these areas as problems. TonyClarke (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Disagree - the basic problems have been around for a long time and debating those problems, seeking answers but generally redefining problems is what it is all about. Problem is not a negative word. Whatever its in the reference so if people want to reopen the debates about the lede I suggest they first check the archives -----Snowded ^TALK 09:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Well looks like you are in a minority already Snowded ^TALK, see above. Also the page you quoted is not part of accepted Wikipedia policy. I respect your input, but sadly have noticed a negative trend in your comments and edits. For example your edit comments are almost a direct copy of your comments on your earlier reversion of an edit on this page.That is not helping Wikipedia or yourself. Unless you can show a consensus for your view, I think we need to revert. Lets not get into detailed to and fro, but I invite other people to comment on this. Thanks in advance.

TonyClarke (talk) 23:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Two editors to one does not constitute a majority I'm afraid, not enough to overturn a form of words that was agreed after much participation. You have not yet got a consensus for change, other people do need to comment first and you need to cut out the personal comments -----Snowded ^TALK 04:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your observations. I'm not sure that this specific point (about problems or answering questions being the focus of philosophy) has ever been formally discussed, certainly not within the past year. I think my point of view is supported by the Internet Encyclopedia article on philosophy, by the etymology of 'philosophy' as the love of wisdom rather than mystery, by the dictionary definition of 'philosophy', and other Wikipedia articles, such as the one on 'metaphysics', and on 'philosopher'. Unless there are strong views otherwise, I think this issue in the intro needs to be revisited TonyClarke (talk) 07:25, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The love of wisdom could be interpreted as supporting either wording. It was discussed several years ago - there have been two long extended discussions of the lede in my wikipedia editing life time. But anything can be revisited but it needs more involvement of other editors - and the group who monitor this article are slow to respond. I have several encyclopaedias and histories of philosophy at home and I can check out their definitions when I get back to my study on Sunday. -----Snowded ^TALK 06:47, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure if "problems" is perfect but it is traditional and easy to understand. On the other hand "issues" is literally a word used when people want to be comically vague and unclear; and "questions" seems to be an attempt to find a word which means something like "problems" but which misses an essential point: not all questions are problems, ie interesting to people. So both words are vague. Can I at least request a more clear statement of why this needs to be changed?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I was responding to an earlier poster on the talk page, who thought 'problems' was very negative and not reflecting the richness and diversity of philosophical work. On looking at many definitions of philosophy on the web, it seemed to me most did not put problems as the main focus of philosophy. Philosophers do not study problems, but a range of topics, epistemology, ethics etc. etc. Perhaps in that approach they tend to work on what some see as problems in those fields, but they seek to work beyond that, and in many cases the problems disappear through further insights which the philosopher finds. 'Questions' I think is relevant in that many topics are phrased as questions: what is value? How does true knowledge arise? What is the nature of reality? etc.. These are best seen as lines of inquiry rather than simply problems. Wikipedia is one of the few sources directly mentioning 'problems' in its definition of philosophy, so I think we should be reflecting the wider, more diverse accounts of philosophy. Hope this helps. TonyClarke (talk) 12:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

So you have a source saying "issues"? I think that term is hopeless honestly? In this post above you now mention "topics", and concerning this word I have the same concern as with "questions" which indeed you also link it to ("many topics are phrased as questions"). Philosophy is not interested in all topics or questions, but only the problematic ones, sometimes also described as being insoluble or permanent. You really found no sources saying this? In any case we can't define philosophy as being a subject which looks into topics or questions because that is not distinguishing philosophy from other academic pursuits, surely?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I have no objection to the "problems" language already in place, but I think that last sentence you wrote is a little unfair, because there's a bunch of further qualifiers that follow whatever word we use there. We're basically saying "philosophy studies things about stuff like existence, knowledge, etc" and just arguing over what word to use in place of "things".

And, again not that I think "problems" is problematic at all, but the wording we have there is already a little redundant, "problems concerning matters such as", when we could just say something like "matters such as". We're essentially saying "...studies things about stuff like..." when we could just say "...studies things like..." or "...studies stuff like...", rather than saying both "things" and "stuff", so to speak. (What is this, mereology? You know, the study of things and stuff...) --Pfhorrest (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Disagree - problems are what make philosophy interesting. Words like 'issues' are meaningless here. We use phrases like "The hard problem" for example -----Snowded ^TALK 21:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes we use the label 'problem', but that does not mean problems are the focus of philosophy, as the previous wording suggested. It is 'the hard problem'- of consciousness, and it is consciousness that philosophers study, in order to resolve the problem it poses. To say philosophy is the study of problems just isn't the whole story, and the general sources quote specific areas which characterise philosophical inquiry. If someone can come up with a better term than inquiry, issue or question, then I will be happy, but 'problems' just isn't enough, and is not widely quoted as characterising the work of philosophy.

TonyClarke (talk) 21:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Well the fact that most of the problems remain unresolved after several thousand of years would argue that the 'label' is accurate-----Snowded ^TALK 05:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Pfhorrest I think that simply using a couple of examples as the only "qualifiers" would be an emergency solution, and not really desirable if avoidable? I remain surprised that people are saying that "problems" is not a word found in publications, but I am not seeing anyone give any real citations to any such publications using any other terminology either.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I object to the latest reversion of my contribution. It was well supported, and the replacement text is not well supported. There are no citations to support the use of 'problem' as the study of philosophy, whereas I gave alternative citations to back up what I said, including the dictionary definition, and a University introductory lecture to philosophy.I could have given many more quotes in introductions from Universities around the world. A simple Google search confirms my position, if needed. If the editors are happy with this remaining as it is, then they are publishing a minority, unsupported view. Please discuss the reasons for reversion before doing so,, this was still under discussion.

TonyClarke (talk) 11:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

TonyClarke, do keep in mind you are the one proposing a change, and your sources are quite weak, and objections to the terms "issues" and "questions" have been explained above without any reply. Anyway, I went to google and I am still mystified about your claim that you could not find any reference to "problems":--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Bertrand Russell: http://selfpace.uconn.edu/class/percep/RussellProblemsOfPhilosophy.pdf
• Nathan Rotenstreich: https://books.google.be/books?id=bxkyBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA184
• Edward Katerian (re. Wittgenstein): https://books.google.be/books?id=yfeJH-1KcD8C&pg=PA112
• A book which starts with an extended discussion on this type of terminology: https://books.google.be/books?id=x3sz5vir5tsC
• The term in use by Richard Rorty, who cites some more big names: https://books.google.be/books?id=NAcwf8Jh74MC&pg=PA257
• William James: https://books.google.be/books?id=-0NgRF-y0IIC (starts with a discussion particularly relevant to how the problems define philosophy)

Apologies I have been away from the internet for a couple of weeks but it looks like this is now closed? -----Snowded ^TALK 07:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

No I don't think it is closed. I too have been off Wikipedia for a while. To answer some of the above points: I think this is a discussion about the definition of philosophy, particuarly whether 'the study of problems' should figure in the definition. I did a Google search for 'What is philosophy', and all of the contemporary and authoritative sources, (excluding Wikipedia) which came up with answers (including English language dictionaries, and universities) come up with things like 'fundamental questions about..' or 'the nature of ..' followed by a list. If there is a modern, authoritative definition of philosophy lurking somewhere making reference to 'the study of problems', I cannot find it, and it is certainly in a very small minority.

Regarding Andrew Lancaster's post above, I could not follow some of the links. Also some of the references are quite old. The William James one is revealing, since in that work I think he was trying to show that his radical empiricism potentially resolved many, if not all of the traditional problems of philosophy. To that extent his philosophy was dynamic, problem solving rather than the study of problems. Snowded ^TALK, earlier in this discussion, rejects such a positive and progressive view of philosophy, and I think that James' approach is an affirmation of the comment by ~ R.T.G on the 'death of philosophy' if it stuck only to the study of problems, not to their resolution.

If someone can cite a contemporary authoritative list of sources mentioning the 'study of problems' in the definition, I will regard this issue as closed. But modern dictionaries and universities do not seem to favour such a definition. We need to conform to the prevalent definitions. TonyClarke (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Ah, so opposition to you now indicates a lack of a positive and progressive view of philosophy from which I assume that you see problems as negative, solutions as positive. You might want to watch this. -----Snowded ^TALK 21:43, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

TonyClarke I made the list quickly using online publications (which normally do not include recent important books, it was absolutely clear that more recent books are still using the terminology though) and I stopped soon after, because as I made it I was thinking that just the short list is like a "who's who". Philosophy is not a fast moving field like genetics. (Just as an example opinion I'd say philosophy is still digesting Hume, and might never go very far beyond him. I am not important, but my point is that I think this arguably eccentric opinion is not unusually arguably eccentric in philosophy. Some people argue that philosophy should go back to Plato. Many or most philosophers seem to think philosophy made a wrong turn somewhere. That is how philosophy works.) Anyway, you might find someone well known who disagrees, but I think that in context even that is no longer so convincing. The original contention was that there were no good sources at all for philosophy being about questions. That contention was in my opinion proven false. If you want to formulate a completely new complaint then please start from a blank slate and do not confuse it with the original concern?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:51, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Ok thank you Andrew. I take it that philosophy being about (fundamental ) questions is now acceptable? I have sources (already posted, but reverted summarily) that philosophy is about fundamental questions, not defined as the study of problems. There is no support for the latter that I can find (although as your list shows, philosophers often start by addressing problems), while very good authorities, such as foremost universities, and the Oxford dictionary, support the former. Unless there are any other comments, I shall go ahead and post regarding this in the article.TonyClarke (talk) 11:25, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Given the history I suggest you propose wording here before making changes -----Snowded ^TALK 14:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

TonyClarke, my apologies. Above I have written as if the position you were opposing was that philosophy involves "questions", whereas obviously we were talking about "problems". Obviously the sources I showed were using the latter terminology. I do not think anyone is opposing the idea that philosophy discusses "questions", but as mentioned before it is a less specific term, and therefore worse for definition purposes. Let's put it this way: you see to accept that "questions" is not specific enough (every field studies questions) so you add "fundamental". We are using the word "fundamental" already, but what is the meaning of "fundamental" in this context? Is that clear? The types of questions philosophy deals with are commonly referred to as problematic, as I've shown. A "problematic question" can simply be called a "problem" in English, and so a "fundamental problematic question" can be called a "fundamental problem". A lot of people clearly think that the word problem helps explain what philosophy is. I do not believe you have proven that the best authorities disagree with this, because as I mentioned the word "problem" seems quite popular with a "who's who" of philosophers who've tried to define philosophy.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Philosophy is about understanding things, is the pinnacle of knowledge taken from ignorance to understanding (Platos ladder of true understanding). Extensions thereafter are peripheral. Everything else is just a branch, which doesn't sound important, but for instance, modern academia is a branch of philosophy so there is like a reverse hype going on. Currently the article suggests that philosophy has moved on from science to problem solving, but in fact the opposite may be more true. ~ R.T.G 10:55, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I think this collection of statements is debatable, and also unsourced, and also hard to convert into any practical suggestion. Is philosophy more about "understanding" than say "physics"? Is it "higher" than, say, physics? (Or perhaps better, how is it "higher"?) Why do you make "problem solving" something opposed to "science"? When it comes to long term or even permanent problems like the ones philosophy constantly stalks around, who says there is necessarily a solution or understanding? And how can we honestly say modern academia is a branch of philosophy?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:39, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

The difference between philosophy and study is understanding. The matter between philosophy and study is education. It's educational. Ask a priest. Wait... ~ R.T.G 09:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Janism

I reverted a cut and paste of material in Indian philosophy here. I think there is a case for a couple of sentences in the section on Indian Philosophy but not a whole entry -----Snowded ^TALK 07:35, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Editor has now been banned as a sock so this is probably closed -----Snowded ^TALK 09:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm adding a nice article I found about Newton's influence on Kant's philosophy, considering the influence Kant had on philosophy. Kant's view on formation of the solar system was based on Newtonian principles. Also the article talks about Leibniz's views on natural law. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-science/ Anna.tonoyan (talk) 22:17, 18 September 2018 (UTC)