Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity

Serb vs Serbian

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Serb vs Serbian

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 05:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

About the move: I think this does not belong here under Nationality and ethnicity because it is more about the words Serb and Serbian than about Tesla's ethnicity. We all agree Tesla was a Serb, but I am trying to explain that Serbian is not a synonym for Serb Notrium (talk) 10:17, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

About the Serb (srpski) vs Serbian (srbijanski) issue, you (MrX) are very wrong. Serb is not a diminutive form of Serbian (LOL, where did you get that from?), please peruse the Wiktionary links in the previous sentence. EDIT: since you complained that Wiktionary is not a reliable source, let it be noted that the Cambridge Dictionary and Merriam-Webster, for example, agree with me; Serbian is for things related to Serbia, not a general synonym for Serb.

Tesla was not Serbian because he had neither been born nor ever lived in Serbia. The same is true of his parents, you would probably need to go pretty far back to find one who was Serbian.

Note that even the Serbian wikipedia does not call him Serbian (srbijanski).

Saying that Tesla was Serbian implies that Smiljani was in Serbia, which is a blatant falsity. Notrium (talk) 01:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Not that Wiktionary is a reliable source, but both Serbian and Serb in the adjective form broadly mean the same thing. Regarrdless, we follow reliable sources, not editor's person opinions. The construct 'Serb American' is awkward. If you want to continue debating this and try to gain consensus for changing the long-standing text, you will have to do it here: Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity per the notice at the top of the page.- MrX 🖋 02:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

No, they do not. See the links to other dictionaries that I provided above. MrX Notrium (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, Notrium, but the Oxford English Dictionary [1] supports MrX; it says that Serbian can mean either an inhabitant of Serbia or a synonym for Serb; a person whose ethnicity is Serbian. Your proposal to change the word from "Serbian" to "Serb" is a nonissue, and I oppose the change. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Care to explain why ethnicity is put into lead against Wiki guidelines? 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla was CROATIAN and NOT Serbian

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla §  Nikola Tesla was CROATIAN and NOT Serbian

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

The indisputable fact is that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in what is now the sovereign independent country of Croatia and had Tesla been alive today he would have identified his nationality as Croatian and NOT Serbian. It seems as if alot of modern Serbians are just trying to claim Nikola Tesla as their own because he was a great inventor and scientist. But the fact still remains that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia hence the article should be changed to represent his true nationality as CROATIAN.174.108.182.14 (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Croatian, Austrian, Hungarian, but certainly not Serbian, however that can't be read in the article. 89.164.147.226 (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Yugoslavia?- MrX 🖋 20:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Yugoslavian. But some people want to push his ethnicity to the article contrary to the fact that he was not notable for his ethnicity. 141.138.53.215 (talk) 23:02, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, if Tesla had been born in Croatia he would be Croatian. Unfortunately, there was no country called Croatia when he was born. "Serbian" in the article refers to his ethnicity, not his nationality.- MrX 🖋 20:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

It is already established that he was born in the Croatia which was then a part of Austrian Empire. However, you don't like that so you keep it out of the article. The sources to the contrary are however visible in this thread. 141.138.53.215 (talk) 22:41, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

There is NO consensus, just stick to the indisputable fact that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia, hence he is CROATIAN NOT SERBIAN!! 174.108.182.14 (talk) 01:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

This case is hopeless. Look at what they did to the last guy who wanted to include the next consecutive sentence from the same source that was already in the article that they didn't like. This is their usual MO. They ignore but when someone is more persistent, they group together, personally attack and push their POV. The previous discussion is a clear case. They cherry picked and pushed one sentence from the source while at the same time they pushed so hard to hide the consecutive one that explains the first one and completely contradicts their interpretation they provided about the first one. So don't get annoyed and write in all caps. This is how Wikipedia works. Plus you don't look credible when you get emotional. 141.136.223.166 (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

To remind ourselves. The source says this : "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". This group of people pushed hard to get the first sentence into the article and at the same time pushed hard to hide the next consecutive sentence which explains what Croatia was at that time. 141.136.223.166 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you are right. However, you still shouldn't sock. The editors here were very rude to me when I just tried to help. If leaving that sentence out of the article makes them happy , just let them have it. Bilseric (talk) 09:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

First of all, if Croatia would have been independent country in 19th Century, it would not include Military Krajina , the part of A-Hu Empire where Tesla was born and most of the Serbs lived for more than 500 years that part was given to Croatia in Yugoslav era, so no Tesla is not or would not have been Croatian, second and most important ,if you really think that Tesla is not a Serbian (or Serb eventhough in our language is always only SRBIN ) then why did the Croats destroyed his House 2 times (once in 1941. and once in 1991.) and killed 11 members of his family,so again he is a Serbian, your hipocricy knows no boundaries

Nikola Tesla was a Croatian! Stop changing the article to say he was so-called “Serbian”! 2600:8801:2e00:1c62:8dc0:fd36:7773:348a

Nobody is changing anything, stop writing lies, this is not a trolling section like your croatian newspapers, here are only facts and the fact is that he was Serbian and you Croats have nothing to do with him

Main article tells the only fact and true story, Tesla was a Serbian , Croats killed his family during the ww2 , destroyed his house in 1941. and 1991. - therefore clearly shoved their opinion about him , so this falsification of history is not going to change anything , TESLA WAS A SERBIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 10:10, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

You have no sources to any of your claims. I put a lot of time to find a source that says that Military Frontier was a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.230.134 (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

And Croatia was part of Austro -Hungary and in A-Hu empire lived lots of nations including Serbs, which most of them lived in Military Krajina which was part of A-H empire not Croatia Just read the main article about Nikola Tesla and everything is gonna be clear ,even to you . You want sources ,go visit the graves in Smiljan where all of Tesla cousins lie killed by Croats and all of the graves are written in cirilic letter , is it not enough evidence for you ? You want some more ? Military Frontier was the border frontier where most of the people who lived there were Serbs , my ancestors not yours, there is enough sources on that subject even in Wikipedia , Do you want some more ? Here is the link that describes how many Serbs were killed during the WW2 in Smiljan by Croats and how many of them were Tesla"s relatives : http://www.politika.rs/sr/clanak/409594/Grobnica-gde-su-ustase-ubile-11-rodaka-Nikole-Tesle , I am gusseing you can read Serbo -Croatian , all those facts are well known ,there is a lot of serious Scientists that have allready written a lot of studies and did researches on this subject and then someone like you thinks that can change the facts by trolling and rewriting the history , sorry it is not going to happen, you should start accepting the fact that other nations lived in this territory that is now called Croatia , Serbs more than 500 years eventhough you"re trying your best to erase that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2019 (UTC) You have double standards. Tesla was born in Austrian Empire. Austria-Hungary was formed 11 years after his birth. His ethnicity is Serbian. His place of birth is today in Croatia, but that is not make him Croatian the same way Ban Jelačić is not Serb just because he was born in place located today in Serbia. We should always use same ethnic standard and not change it based on present interests.

This is all unrelevant and unsourced. Tesla's birthplace is Military Frontier, which was a part of Croatia at that time (as the source says Croatia,Slavonia and MF constitute the same "land"). Graves, ancestors, your feelings are unrelevant for Wikipeidia. As for his ethnicity, there are sources for that but in my opinon none of them is based on primary sources, however those are good enough for Wikipedia, but note that there are other sources which claim otherwise whichs are of no less significance since no is based on primary sources. 89.164.202.76 (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The only thing that is unsourced and unrelevant is your trolling ,Military Krajina was part of Austrian Empire ,not Croatia that in that time did not existed, and if it would existed it would not been in today"s borders, those borders were made in Tito Yugoslavia, those are all well known facts ,Graves and ancestors are extremly relevant especially for wikipedia, that is why your trolling can not pass in main article because it is simply not true ,I allready gave you one source that proves what the Croats did to Tesla family ,I can give you way more, but the point is that you trying to manipulate the truth and rewrite the history which is very hypocritical and you do that not because of Nikola Tesla, you do that to push nationalistic ideas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 03:27, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not aware of what is going on here, but from what I see just by overlooking, it is the same old story over and over again. So, time to repeat some history:

A- Tesla was born in Austrian empire.

B- Tesla was born in the Military Frontier, a special province within the empire created along the border with Ottoman empire to serve as defense against Ottomans. It was formed in 1553, Tesla was born in 1856, so it was not something "new" but rather a well established province with 3 centuries of existance by time Tesla came into life.

C- Military Frontier was multi-ethnic province ruled directly by Austria. Its ethnic composition was (probably intentionally) done in a way that neither Serbs, or Croats, or anyone else, would be majority.

D- Militaru Frontier was divided into sections, named geographically, corresponding to the nearest other province. The names of the sections missleadingly are nowadays being interpreted as if those provinces had some power over them, but did not. Tesla was born in the so called Croatian Military Frontier section, however, the province of Croatia-Slavonia had no authority over it. Right the opposite, Croatian parliamentarians spent much of their time fighting to convince the crown to give them some powers over the CMF.

E- During Military Frontier entire existance, Croatia, which was a neighbouring province, with its own borders and provincial powers which excluded the Military Frontier.

F- The multi-ethnic structure of the Military frontier and the fact that demographics indicated near half population as Serbian, made Tesla feel autochtone and identify with his birthplace. His father was a Christian Orthodox priest, and his mother was daughter of a Christian Orthodox priest, Orthodoxy made a vital role in being the center of Serbian communities within Austrian empire. There are no, neither there have ever been, Orthodox Croats. Both Serbs and Croats are South Slavs, what made the difference between them was clearly the religion, so obviously the religious leaders were the maximal exponents of their nationalities. As today, you can see Arab Israelies, but an Arab rabi? Within the Military Frontier, both nationalities had their "motherlands" bordering the MF, Serbs in the South with first Ottoman occupied Principality of Serbia, while Croats had Habsbirg occupied Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) and later Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Both obviously desired unification each with its correspondent motherland.

G- But in meantime, and in reality, none of them had any authority over MF which was under tight Austrian control. From several sources we can see that despite vast South Slavic majority, in MF German was the official language and schools and highschools were lectured in German. All high ranks were held by Austrians.

H- Tesla was born and studied in Military Frontier. By the time he moved to Graz in 1875, he never got to live, study, or do anything in Croatia proper, it was all in Military Frontier. He even got the scholarship from the Miltary Frontier (that important MF was it even atributed scholarships).

I- So, Tesla was NOT born in Croatia (Croatia was a neighbouring province which held no control over Smiljan in the Military Frontier), neither lived or studied at any point in Croatia.

J- In Graz, Tesla started a "Serbian Cultural Club".

K- Tesla never lost his identification with the multiethnic Military Frontier he grew up at, and much later when it all became Kingdom of Yugoslavia, he clearly keeps this awareness of multiethnicity, now with Yugoslavia as sort of a "liberated" way, but never adbicates from his Serbian identification.

L- The so much cited "Serbian origin and Croatian homeland" being used as prove of his Croatianess is such a dishonest missuse as ignores all the rest written and the context itself. He wrote it on the occassion of the assassination of Alexander I of Yugoslavia who was the king of Yugoslavia from the Karadjordjevic royal dinasty which ruled Kingdom of Serbia and consequently after WWI continued ruling the then renamed Kingdom og Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) and who was allways seen as simobol of Serbian dominance over Yugoslavia, thus disliked by vast majority of Croats, and eventually assassinated by Croatian terrorist organisation. Tesla was a major supporter of the royal family and pleased a Serbian royal family ruled the country, he wrote that text full of sadness and that citation taken from his text was supposed to mean that he was of Serbian origin despite by then his birthplace having become part of Croatian within Yugoslav internal division, and how there was people like him "from Croatia" that admired the king. It was supposed to represent unity and to deescalate the general feeling Croats either supported the assassination of the king. He actually highçight his Serbian identification with the intention of wanting to let know that there are people that considered that Croatia within Yugoslavia as homeland and were not all against the king, but rather in favor.

M- So this claims of Tesla having been born in Croatia are wrong, neither he was born, or raised, or studied ever in Croatia (unfortunatelly for these editors) Tesla was born and spent all his time while there within the Military Frontier, which was well different than the back then neighbouring Croatia, since in Croatia Austrians and Hungarians did allowed some local powers, while at Military Frontier didn´t allowed any Croatian authority, not even in the section called Croatian Military Frontier, which again, the name of the section "Croatian" is merelly geographical, not a possessive adjective as many so much want to make it look like.

N- The only argument is that Smiljan, Tesla birthplace, later became part of Croatia, but even the destruction of his house, church and other property by Croatian troops during their fight for independence demonstrates how real the awareness is that Tesla is the (unwanted) proeminent member of the (once) large Serbian minority in what became Croatia. Now, just because he is famous wanting to turn things up-side down is really cheating.

O- Any of these continuos attempts, as far as I saw, are all ased in the denial of at least few of my points, and I can source each and every word of mine. FkpCascais (talk) 08:07, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

THANK YOU !!!! Finally has someone explained it ,I would just like to add by letter N that the statue of Nikola Tesla in Gospic was destroyed too during the 1991. period which is still not replaced with the new one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

He was born here, entire family is born in Triune Kingdom. It is an injustice. There is not enough evidence that he was Serbian just because he was Orthodox. Bye--Uspjeh je ključ života (talk) 16:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Born in ethnic Serb family, both of his parents were Serbs originally from Western Serbia , father orthodox priest , his SLAVA is Djurdjevdan ... what more evidence someone needs , btw if you do not know what Slava is here is an article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I spent a lot of time finding a source that says that MF was a part of Croatia in the time Tesla was born. Sorry, but you can't ignore it just because you don't like it. The fact that MF was under special military administration does not change the fact that it formed a single land with Croatia and Slavonia. The fact that Tesla himself acknowledged when he said "I was born in Croatia.". 2A01:C22:6E36:3500:648B:DCD0:68B0:3C7F (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, comming from a person who just comment back spoke about Triune Kingdom as if it was reality, everything can be expected. FkpCascais (talk) 23:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

No, but seriously, this one really interests me: how would you explain that the so Croatian, Croat, pure nobility, Tesla, after receving his Militärgrenze scholarship to continue his studies in Graz, arrives there and creates and runs a... Serbian Cultural Club? Because he created it, he could have made it Croatian Cultural Club, right? If he was so Croatian as you claim. So, was it like his beggining as agent for the Croatian intelligentsia? A way to infiltrate him into Serbian intellectual circles, lets make him willingly create and run a Serbian Cultural Club, so he fools everyone he is a Serb. But wait, now I get it, this goes way deeper. A source of yours said Tesla families from both sides were noble Croatian families, so he must have followed the tradition then, because then obviously his father and grand-father, Orthodox priests, must have been infiltrators too! They were all noble Croatians just claimed to be Serbs because they were infiltrated while working for Croatian FBI. Humor aside, really, how can you not stop claiming Tesla is something else than Serbian when at his first longer stay away "abroad" he creates and runs a Serbian Cultural Club? Because, I am interested, how many non-Serbs must have ever been that just woke up one day borred and said "Well, today I am finally creating my Serbian Cultural Club!" I think there was a time in Puerto Rico it became fashion. Puerto Ricans opened Serbian clubs at every corner. And not a single Serb was seen! All Croats and few other nobles from the Triune Kingdom! Right? FkpCascais (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

You are rambling as usual. What is important are sources and anyone who's interested beond this ramble can see them. Here are they again: [2] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh come on, please, just out of record, how do you explain he created and runed a Serbian Cultural Club if he was so Croatian? Please, you must have some explanation, or you just choose to ignore it? FkpCascais (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

The link to your source is proved wrong by all historians and all following historian events following. No, there was no Triune Kingdom, only you think so. That is why no one even bothered to answer you, because youalready posted that same source and arguments tons of times and failed every single time. ... I am also out becuse consensus has been reached long ago and you have nothing new to challenge it, so all I am interested is from personal curiosity how a mind like yours explains Tesla creating a Serbian Cultural Club and not Croatia, if he was so Croatian. I am really interested if you could explain this to me. FkpCascais (talk) 21:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Because he was a Serb by ethnicity. I have no problems with his ethnicity, you are the one having problems admitting he was born in Croatia. If there was no Triune Kingdom, how come it has issued a passport to Tesla? Hm, that will be a hard one to explain...2A01:C22:7644:7100:98DA:B36D:4004:33D1 (talk) 21:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Tesla was a Serbian -American inventor

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Tesla was a Serbian -American inventor !!!!

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Was there any consensus to change this or did somenone changed it without permission ? As far as I know there should be discussion before you change this and Tesla was not Croatian -Serbian -American inventor he was Serbian -American inventor and also he could not have croatian citizenship because Croatia did not exsited back then ,someone is clearly illegally using their editing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

For lineage, we need reliable sources not consensus. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:05, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

User:FlightTime, I see you are new here so let me just say that reliable sources mean nothing here as can be seen from this discussion [3] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 07:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

What do you mean "new here" I've been around over 10 years and if you mean new to this conversation, I don't give a shit about this conversation, to me this is just ongoing trolling. What I do care about is reliable sources, I stand on my comment above and please don't ever ping me again. Cheers, - FlightTime (open channel) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

And where is reliable source that he had croatian citizenship , when Croatia at that time did not existed as a country ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2019 (UTC) 

Tesla's citizenship was extensively discussed previously. You can find the topic in the archive. The summary is that it is more complex than "Croatia didn't exist" (which itself is false). 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 06:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, do you care to explain why is The Triune kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia (which doesn't exist by your account) issuing a passport to Tesla (which isn't it's citizen by your account)? Here's Tesla's passport [4] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 07:35, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Everything is allready clearly explained by FkpCascais ,for further information please check the article on Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Fkp is a known POV pusher and I didn't bother to read his wall of unsourced text. His interpretations are irrelevant even if he wasn't a known POV pusher, since he never provides any source. I don't care about Wikipedia article which is full of claims inserted by POV pusher, I care about sources. Tesla's passport is a primary source. I can make my own interpretations based on that. Tesla's claim that he was born in Croatia is also a primary source, I can make my own interpretations based on that, however since Wikipedia requires a secondary source, I spent some time finding a source that says that MF and Croatia were a single land. One objective editor has recongised that and they tried to ban him, so much for good faith on this thread. 2A01:C22:7644:7100:98DA:B36D:4004:33D1 (talk) 19:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

There are few problems with your claims and there is a reason why the main article is written the way it is. So far I have searched for some texts to check your sources and since I also speak German I was looking to some german texts and also DE wikipedia to see is that what you claim true, so far what I have seen is that FkpCascais is telling the truth , so he is definetly not a POV pusher , in every text there is exactly the same explanation that there was no triune kingdom , that Croatia-Slavonia was autonomous teritory under Hungarian rule with 55 precent tax payments to Budapest (after 1867.) in return they had some freedom but it was not independent kingdom eventhough there was a strong support to become one (but also a veto from the Hungarian side), that Dalmatia was under the rule of Cisleithania and MK too until it was disband and that happened in 1881. 25 years after Tesla birth and since we are nitpicking there are few issues with Reisepass to in comparing it with other ones from that time like the lack of official stamps on a bottom left corner and the meaning of Landesregierung (regions goverment) on a top right - it seems that you are trying to put different time periods in one ,that you are mixing 1790-is with 1867. with 1881. and so on. I have allready promised that I will cool down, so I am not discussing this subject anymore but I would like to recommend you to be more precise in your theories in the future, the main article was written by a lot of editors , neutral ones too — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

There is a bunch of other documents from from the Triune Kingdom, not just Tesla's passport. How can it be when it didn't exist , one may ask. Why is it issuing passport to Tesla if Tesla wasn't its citizen? All valid questions one can ask. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C23:BC16:4A00:7472:8685:1193:BFAB (talk) 05:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

You are missing entirelly the point. Lets ignore the unfair remarks you´ve made against me, and, I will really assume GF believing you are really objective and neutral and you just want the truth. So, let me explain you your mistake.

You found a source, an old text from a Croatian historian, which at certain point talks about a specific event in history, which was the negociation and creation of Nagodba, and he narrates what´s written there and who were the signatires. This is what you believe is enough to go around Wikipedia and assume those paragraphs regarding Nagodba are the ultra-reality.

So, if I were to do the same, I could go and see the Treaty of Bucharest (1812), see what was agreed, the signatires (all participants did), and see the Article 8 saying Serbian rebels archived authonomy for Serbia. (It´s there, right? See it?)

With that, I would ignore everything else, and describe everywhere Serbia as authonomous in historical events in following times. I have a text saying in the important international Treaty of Bucharest Serbia gained authonomy and it is signed by all intervenients. So, who cares that in reality Ottomans crushed the rebbelds, suppressed any authonomy or local power, murdered and assasined hundreds of notable Serbs to prevent a new revolt, crushed the Hadži-Prodan's rebellion, and by ignoring by all means what was signed in 1812 in Bucharest, led to a new Serbian revolt Second Serbian Uprising years later.

So, you can´t go around cherry-picking one source (actually, cherry-picking a paragraph from that source) just because it suits you, and ignore that all historical events after it don´t match with that.

The putovnica by itself is not evidence of nothing more than Croatian authorities claiming Dalmatia under their jurisdiction as well. But, putovnice are not evidence by themselves. I have a Portuguese passport and neither I was born in Portugal, neither any of my family members was, neither I am Portuguese ethnically. Another curiosity, Portugal issued passports claiming their Portuguese Empire much longer it had no control anymore of much of the territories that were still shown in the passport. The issue of the putovnica back then is not at all that simple as you paint it: "He had a Croatian putovnica, means he is Croatian". It was a time when many Europeans were not that much warried about the origin of the document that will give them travel permit to USA, they just wanted one valid. It is known that at New York harbour the statistics of the origin of the documents didnt match the ethnicity of the travellers, people were labelled as Austrians, Croatians, Italians, despite many being Serbs, Romanians, Czezchs, just because they were labelled by the origin of their boat, where the travel documents were propably issued for the ones not having one, and there they weren´t able to choose but rather had to accept the only available, local one of that port.

You say there is a bunch of documents about the Triune Kingdom, which ones? FkpCascais (talk) 18:31, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

The source is secondary source and it doesn't need your biased interpretations. Tesla perfectly well knew where he was born when he said : 'I was born in Croatia' . I needed no more than this primary source to win an argument, but since wikipedia works with secondary sources, I put in some time to find one as well. The triune kingdom obviously existed in one form or another, since it was issuing official documents. So to summarize. 1. The king proclaimed that MF, Croatia and Slavonia constitute a single land. 2. Tesla said that he was born in Croatia. 3. Tesla applied for a passport in the offices of the triune kingdom. Seems to me that Tesla perfectly well knew which is his home country. Maybe for you the triune kingdom doesnt exist, but for Tesla it obviously did.

95.168.120.18 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, your source is secundary where it is said what was signed there and by who. However, it doesn´t say nothing about the future results or consequences of it. It´s like a report of a marriage. You can have someone writting "He said yes, she said yes" but with just that we cannot conclude "they lived happily for ever till end of times". That is why I made the comparison with 1812 Buchareast Treaty, we can find sources saying what was agreed there and who were all the ones that signed it, but unless we have more reliable sources saying the agreements there were respected afterwords (and in both cases weren´t) all we have is just that.

No, you do need more reliable secundary sources confirming Croatia became the Triune Kingdom after the signing of that agreement. Unfortunatelly, we both know there are none, because the agreement was simply ignored by Austrians and Hungarians, which kept Croatia and Slavonia separated from Dalmatia forever until 1918.

Tesla said he was born in Croatia in a time his birthplace was already within Yugoslavia within Croatia. So, you can´t claim he was refering to the time of his birth when he said that. And, furthermore, we know the complexity of the events when he said that, and he said it full of second intentions, which, by the way, were not favorable to Croatia at all, but rather favorable of Serbian dinasty ruling Yugoslavia and critic regarding Croatian separatist aspirations.

Tesla says nothing about Triune Kingdom, and the entire claim of Triune Kingdom goes down as soon as we see the original Tesla hischool grades from Varazdin highschool which are all in German and certified by Militargrentze everywhere, no mention of any Croatia anywhere. FkpCascais (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

On the contrary, the whole book describes Croatia at that time in great detail.My source clearly states separated administration and representation. No problem with that. As everyone can clearly see, Tesla's passport was issued by the Triune kingdom. Anyone objective can ask himself why did Tesla apply for a passport there and how come something that doesn't exist is issuing passports. Anyone could up to recently go to the Triune Kingdom wiki page and see that the triune kingdom was 'a formal entity within Austro Hungarian Empire' (and that's a quote from yet another source that I posted). You are misunderstanding. Triune Kingdom was formed in 1867, however even before MF was a part of Croatia per this source that I posted. Tesla said that he was born in Croatia. You interpret it how you want. I posted reliable secondary sources that confirm MF was a part of Croatia, and I believe that is enough for objective people.95.168.118.2 (talk) 20:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Besides that source, what other English-language source you have confrming Triune Kingdom existed?

Another thing, you see, I was born in Belgrade. If I am asked today where I was born, I say "Serbia". So my answer doesn´t reflect the historical accuracy of the geopolitics of the moment I was born, but simply where that place belongs today. I will answer "Serbia" all time, but I wasn´t born in Serbia, I was born in Yugoslavia. FkpCascais (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

No, my source deals with the time period of Tesla's birth. Triune kingdom was established later. Who am I to you? Go to the library or search the internet for yourself. Triune kingdom is not the subject when talking about Tesla's birthplace. What I'm saying here and what I consider enough (bdw I see what you did on the Triune Kingdom article where you removed reliable sources , it seems I will have to open a RfC again) is that it is interesting that Tesla's passport was issued by the "non-existing" Triune Kingdom, that it's interesting why Tesla didn't ask for a passport from Austria, but he asked it from the Triune Kingdom. It's also interesting that King would proclaim that MF and Croatia constitute a single land. Also interesting is that Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia. Also interesting that Tesla's matriculation exam lists Croatia as "homeland" and Croatian as mother tongue. Serbia was a state withing Yugoslavia so you were born in Yugoslavia and also in Serbia which has since become independent. Tesla was born in Austrain Empire and also in Croatia which since then became a part of Yugoslavia and today it's independent, that's why he choose to say that he was born in Croatia (as it seems logical to me). If he choose to say that he was born in Croatia, and if his highschool diploma lists Croatia as his homeland in 1872 (before MF was abolished) and if I put a secondary source saying MF and Croatia constituted a single land and if you don't want to accept any of those arguments, I can't help you. You and other few editors here who appear only when someone seriously threaten the POV you have inserted into the article have proven long ago that you are not objective. A few months ago you and one other editor wanted to ban another editor for trying to include the consecutive sentence from the source whose 1st sentence was already in the article. The sentence that mentions Croatia. Well if you feel you have accomplished something by cherrypicking one sentence and hiding the consecutive sentence (which explicitly says Tesla was born in Croatia) that doesn't go along your interpretation that Tesla had no connections to Croatia whatsoever, then congratulations. You found the meaning of life. 2A02:810D:94C0:6EBB:9919:B4C6:A782:3256 (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, since you dont bring any new scholar sources backing up your point, we can just go around seing the Austro-Hungarian-related articles and see there was no united Croatian Triune Kingdom. That is where you fail. You are cherry-picking a source and failing to have any of that included in corresponding articles. FkpCascais (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Just find a neutral reliable source saying Kingdom of Dalmatia became ever part of some "Triune Kingdom", please. FkpCascais (talk) 23:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Military Frontier, all academic sources confirm it lasted until 1881. We see in Tesla life that Military Frontier was alive and kicking during his time there. You claim it was united with Croatia in 1850 but we see Tesla official highschool grades from Karlovac all in German, with German as main language (as it was in Military Frontier; in Croatia was Croatian), and all papers had official seals, badges and simbols screaming Militargrentze (Military Frontier), meaning it was clearly them running the school. There is no mention of Croatia, Croatia-Slavonia, or anything other than Militargrentze. Five years later, Military Frontier was so still live and kicking that was giving scholarships for their best students, and Tesla got one, and moved to Graz, where he followed his studies and formed a Serbian Cultural Club. Wanting to include Croatia into this is really impossible. Even more when we know Croatia existed at that time, it was just not related to the places Tesla was born and grow-up. Croatia was also under Austro-Hungarian empire, it was just another province, with different location and territory from the one Tesla was involved with. And that is what becomes important here. You can´t say a person was born in a place when at time that place existed but in another location. Smiljan and the area Tesla was born in and grew-up at was incorporated into Croatia in 1881. In 1879 Tesla father died, he moved to Prague, he was in Maribor and returned to Gospic where he was a local teacher in the local school, in 1880 he moves to Prague, 1881 to Budapest, where he starts seriously working. In 1882 he starts working for Edison company in Paris, and in 1884 he moves to United States.

The last meaningfull time he spends around his birthplace was in 1879 when he returns to Gospic after his father died and teaches in local school. Even that visit was still within Military Frontier. When Croatia took control of the area, he was already away seriously engaged in his work, travelling between Budapest and Paris until he left for the States in 1884. His entire youth and childhood were spent in Military Frontier. Croatia was a neighbouring province where he was not born in, did not lived in, and did not studied in. If I am working in Portugal, I can´t say I am working in Spain just because I want to. Same with Tesla. Sorry. FkpCascais (talk) 03:15, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Sure. We've seen what happens when someone wants to include a source mentioning Croatia. First you separate this discussion from the talk page so its less visible, then you ignore any request and if someone is more persistent, he is being personally attacked by the same group of editors. Can you explain why have you cherry picked the first of these 2 sentences to the article and tried to ban the guy who wanted to add the consecutive sentence explaining what MF is? "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". Is it normal to make such claims as you do and at the same time manipulate with the sources by extracting one sentence out of the context and putting it such to the article?95.168.118.9 (talk) 05:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

§Please indent your comments properly. No one is against the inclusion of anything as long it is correct and goes along the historical accuracy agreed by main historiography. That source you are citing is obviously very uninformed about historical accuracies as it even fails to acknolledhe the difference between Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) and Military Frontier. It would be like a source saying Portugal is a province of Spain, it would get diqualified inmediaelly. FkpCascais (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

So one sentence of the source is ok and you and few others have included it into the article, but the consecutive one which explains the first one is wrong according to you so you have prevented an editor who wanted to include it to the point of person attacks? That's such an obvious POV pushing and cherry picking. The editor even said that you were very rude to him. Sure, Horvat's secondary source which directly quoues the primary source is wrong. This secondary source which says the same thing is wrong. Even Tesla himself is wrong when he said he was born in Croatia. Luckily we have you here to explain it to us. Horvat defines it perfectly. A single land with disaggregated representation and administration. You are constantly focusing on disaggregated representation and administration which is true. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it still was a single land. You can't cherry pick what you like and consider yourself objective. You were already banned for POV pushing. How much credibility do you think your unsourced claims have? 31.45.226.26 (talk) 20:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Lets clarify one thing: you are the one wanting to alter content in the article, not me. So you don´t get to call me POV-pusher just because you feel so. Your edit proposals are being rejected not because of me, but because they go against the consensus which was already reached over this matter some time ago. Back then, you presented the same exact sources using the same exact arguments. Yes, Horvat is clear about what was written and signed at the event from 1850 he is refering to, however, it was demonstrated by numerous editors presenting a considerable ammount of reliable sources, that what was written and signed at the event Horvat is refering to, ended being ignored, and consequent events were totally different. No, Croatia was not allowed to form the Triune Kingdom in 1850, not even later, and Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) was not allowed any authority over any part of the Military frontier in 1850. You can go back and see the entire list of sources backing this up, and even Tesla live by itself also confirms it with its 1870 highschool grades from Karlovac where clearly states Military Frontier helds control over educational sistem within MF, and not Croatia, Slavonia, Triune Kingdom, or any other entity. Subsequently, Tesla receves as late as 1875 a scholarship from the Military Frontier, so that again confirms the places Tesla was born and studied in, were under MF authority still 25 years later than what your source claims they became part of Croatia. So I really can´t interpret your attitude any different then just simple denial of facts, and insistence by all means of an inclusion of incorrect information into the article. We been trough a long discussion with many participants and consensus was reached, Tesla was born and studied in the Military Frontier, not Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg), or now your new version, Triune Kingdom, no he didn´t, and on the other side, Tesla father and maternal grand-father were not priests of the Serbian Orthodox Church, but simply Eastern Orthodox Church, because Serbian OC didn´t existed at that time as a unified church.

So, Croatian POV-pushers need to come with some new evidence if they want to change this consensus (you came with none, just same old source we analised zillion times), and Serbian POV-pushers need to come up with some new evidence that at time Tesla father and grand-father were priests there was some "Serbian Orthodox Church", and bring new evidence for that, otherwise, just both sides live with it and stop accusing editors opposing changes against consensus as "other-side POV-pushers". I am done and out, and I will not tolerate more insults to my person indeed. FkpCascais (talk) 01:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't want to edit the article. It's perfectly fine to say that Tesla was born in Austrian Empire in what later became Croatia. I'm just pointing to your wrong interpretation that back then MF didn't have anything to do with Croatia when in fact it constituted the same land. Nothing that was signed in 1850 ended being ignored. That agreement just defined MF as a part of Croatia de-jure which later led to abolishment of the separate administration. Horvat was never discussed as a source, anyone can read the previous discussion and see what you and other POV pushers did to the editor who wanted to discuss it. You personally attacked him and pushed the closure without allowing any new editors to review the source which clearly goes against your interpretations. Not allowing the discussion but pushing your own opinion is clearly against wiki policies. He even said that you were very rude to him. 95.168.118.10 (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Detailed answer here. I am glad we agree on respecting the consensus and that no one wants to make any edits that go against it. About my allegedly wrong interpretation, I gave a respectfull detailed explanation why the consensus is correct and why would an eventual suggestion of some claiming Military Frontier was Croatia, or part of Croatia, wrong. I will just ask you to stop from now on to give me such relevance, because plenty of editors participated in those discussions, many of them senior editors, they saw the sources, arguments, and reached their conclusions on their own. Blaiming me is just denial that editors really don´t agree with your claims. FkpCascais (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm Croatian, I am reading this article and cannot fathem all these discussions. You guys are ruining something that we should all be proud of.

It apsolutely amazes me how our two nations will fight today over nothing. To be honest, Tesla is more American then Croatian or Serbian.

He was born on these parts and then when he finished his studies dissapeared into U.S.A. Can you blame him? I would have done the same, just look at this forum, it is a DISGRACE!

It is apsolutely ridiculous and un-candid how you people think that arguing about this is going to be productive, when it is actually and factually just the opposite. SHAME on all of you! --Serious19 (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Tell it to the people who are cherry picking sentences out of a context and then trying to ban people who point that out. 95.168.118.8 (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

@Serious19, don´t be so sure of that. I know there are many groups of immigrants as the ones you described, chasing the American dream, but Tesla was not at all one of them. He didn´t "dissappeared" to the US after finishing his studies, he was already working and performing so remarkably well at what was one of the most advanced projects in the entire world, electrical instalation in Paris. The project included the collaboration of several avangarde companies at time, and he was included in the Continental Edison Company. Edison manager Batchellor, after overseeing Paris installation, insisted to bring Tesla to New York. With a promisse of better conditions, and an opportunity to work having in his disposition a wider variety of tools, it is not hard to understand why Tesla accepted it. But it is far, very far, from the story of a "poor boy going after American dream" and once there, forgetting about his origins. Actually, Tesla never forgot his origins, he would cite the nature of his homeland as inspiration for many of his discoveries, and he would not rarelly collaborate with newspappers writting about the events that were happening in Europe and had as protagonists Austro-Hungary, Serbia, Ottoman and Russian empires, and the complicated situation in Balkans. After WWI he became citizen of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) and he kept close contacts with the embassy stuff from Washington. Not only Tesla was the opposite of the tipical immigrant to the US, he never indicated no interest in the American dream of becoming famous and rich, but he rather kept his esotheric way of life inherited from his Orthodox education from back home, and his interest in Serbian mythological poetry, Jovan Jovanović Zmaj, and connection between the two, the tradition and inovation. He became member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts in 1937, and was active in the pro-Yugoslav/Serbian (pro-monarchic) lobbie. Opposite to what you claim, Tesla really never felt comfortably in the American society. To me personally leaves me more the impression that he was in US because NY represented the center of the world and because it was the place he would have the best conditions to develop his works. Obviously, he was "American" having his entire life in mind, but far from some sort of description as sort of "American" as Kirk Douglas was. FkpCascais (talk) 22:30, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

@FkpCascais: If you edited my text from before, I implore you not to do that, there is a reason why it`s written like this. I really didn't need the paragraph you took from the Nikola Tesla site on Wikipedia.

Contrary to your belief, I know how to read and need no history lessons from you about Tesla. I am not going to be drawn into any discussions about his nationality or if he was american or not, I simply stated my opinion.

I also don't need anyone to reply with said lessons trying to get me to think otherwise, my mind is not here to be changed. I respect your opinion, but I do not care about the technicalities that you mentioned. --Serious19 (talk) 17:44, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Edited your text? I didn´t touched any of your content. It´s only possible if we edited in same time and something happend, but I can´t see it, if you could provide a diff maybe we could find out what happened, because I certainly didn´t touched your comment intentionally, and if it some of those cases when two edits at same time mess with the content of one another, I would have no problems in fixing it and I hope it didn´t caused any upset.

Regarding your comment, I hope at least you learned from this "guys" here that Tesla didn´t just finished his studies and desapeared to US, but Tesla spent almost half a decade "earning" his invitation to the US by doing remarcable work in what were ammong the most advanced projects by then in Europe. So, next time, please be more respectfull towards the editors (even the IP regardless of being wrong for zillion time, he is presenting sources and arguments, and our job here is to evaluate and confirm their veracity as borring as may it seem; so he is an editor to you, not "some guy"). So, if you have something to contribute with, you are welcome, but if you came here just to remind us how "we" should all be proud of Tesla while afterwords showing not knowing even about his early work in Europe, well, I wish you remember also Tesla teaches us about humildity, and how humans should apply it. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

@FkpCascais: First of all, I did not learn anything from the people on this thread because all you can do is behave like cave men. This is always the case when serbs are debating croats or vice versa.

I did not say you did touch my comment, I simply said IF you did I would like to ask not to edit it, that is all, no harm no foul...

He is to me what I like to call him, and in this case it`s guy. That is also figure of speech and it does not clash with any rules on Wikipedia. Since I see you are a very sensitive person, I must tell you that not everything you find disrespectful, is actually disrespectful.

Where did you get the information that I did not know anything about his early work ? Is it just because you copy-pasted an entire paragraph about it so you think you taugh me something ?

Judging by your talk page you are not a person who knows anything about humility, it is very hypocritical that you tried to teach me something about it, especially after so many arguments that you had here.

I simply came here to voice my opinion, this is a thread about Nikola Tesla`s origins is it not, did you check the title of this thread?

I simply stated that for me he is more american then serbian and croatian, and of course you being a person who doesn`t accept anyone else`s opinion had to argue it with meaningless facts.

Also, please don`t take this as an insult, it is far from it and it is only mentioned for educational purposes, spell check your english, because it is attrocious.

And for the end I will just leave this fact here: The only reason why you are here is to argue with croatian or serbian people about Tesla`s origins. How do I know this ?

If you take a look at the page of Nikola Tesla, you will see that it says Serbian not Croatian, so for all entents and purposes you already have what you want, but that is not enough for you because you have to argue, you want to argue. Have a good day. --Serious19 (talk) 18:35, 27 August 2019 (UTC)