Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 4

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Tesla being proud Serb

Can you add some quotes where Tesla expressed his proudness of being a Serb origin like

“There is something in me that could be a delusion, as often is the case with young and enthusiastic people. But if I am lucky to realize only some of my ideas, it will be a good deed for the entire humanity. If those hopes of mine are fulfilled, my sweetest thought will be that it is the work of a Serb…”. http://www.b92.net/eng/special/tesla/life.php?nav_id=3643879.175.68.102 (talk) 06:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside that that is not exactly a scholarly source, I don't think the reason that Tesla is notable and has an article here has anything to do with puffed up national pride. Of course, if reliable sources were provided that say he was particularly notable for this behaviour then maybe it could go in... SpinningSpark 15:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Discussions about nationality or ethnicity will be moved to Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity. Binksternet (talk) 15:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry, forgot about that page. Would have moved it myself if I had remembered. SpinningSpark 16:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The fact that this supposed quote is from a B92 article makes me very very doubtful this is legitimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.252.190 (talk) 00:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Serb/Croat arguments

Tesla was a Serb, born in Croatia. The article is not objective, and I think objectivity is important. One harmless example of that is presenting banknote of Serbia with his image and not presenting the croatian one. Apparently this wiki page is edited by serbian wiki page, and that's why it's not objective. I suggest that the page should be edited by another wiki project. That's how we will stop counting Tesla's blood cells and manipulating with the history. Give Tesla in the hands of neutral party. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.35.251 (talk) 12:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

- Tesla was a Serb and only because some other politicians from some other country where he was born are trying to associate Tesla's name to their country doesnt make him non-Serb. If this is not clear to you guys than do some research on his past and than you will see who is right and who is wrong(and what is true and whats not) rather than just making a vague decision's while being neutral. Very accurate article here on Wiki.

-Tesla was of wallach - serb heritage that's clear. He was born in Croatia, that's clear too. I think we should stick to his words: "i am proud of my heritage but i am also proud of my croatian homeland". That's the end of it guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.154.155 (talk) 18:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Tesla was ethnically Serb, but considered his home to be Croatia. "I am proud of my Serbian heritage and of my Croatian homeland." That's what he himself said, thus, it would be fair to consider him "Serbo-Croatian". unsigned comment added by 78.1.94.211 (talk) 19:01, April 21, 2008 (UTC)

Sramota je zbilj akako vi Srbi volite krivotvoriti poviest. Sam Nikola Tesla kaže kako je njegova domovina Hrvatska, a vi bi mu to poslije smrti oduzeli. Sram vas bilo lopovi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.86.58.248 (talk) 01:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

He could be born on Mars but he is still Serb. Vlatko Maček wrote him letter addressed to "gratest son of Croatia and of Serbian people", Tesla wrote him back :"I am proud of my Serbian nationality and of my croatian homeland" that is correct translation. It is shame what kind of forgers you Croats are. For person who obviously does not speak English: Е ви сте лопови, Мачек му је написао телеграм поводом рођендана овим ријечима: "Највећем сину, народа српског и земље хрватске". Тесла је био господин па је рекао:"Поносим се својим српским родом и хрватском домвином. А је ли икад више дошао у Хрватску, није. је ли долазио у Београд јесте. И Марко Поло је рођен на територији данашње Хрватске, па је ли и он Хрват? thats false telegram — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavrilo123 (talk • contribs) 14:07, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia statement on Tesla's background in collision with its own support references

At the time I am writing this (March 17 2013) the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla states: Nikola Tesla [...] was a Serbian-American[2][3] inventor, […]

The reference [2] listed to support this claim states: "Electrical pioneer Tesla honoured". Tesla was equally proud of his Serb origins and Croatian homeland (BBC NEWS). Retrieved 11 July 2012.

The reference [3] listed to support this claim states: In 1936 Tesla replied to a birthday telegram from Vladko Maček, saying that he was "equally proud" of his "Serbian origin and Croatian homeland [1], in a telegram, Tesla wrote "Long live all Yugoslavs"[2], Tesla's views are also stated in Tesla: Man Out of Time By Margaret Cheney, page 318, "I am a Serb but my fatherland is Croatia"

(BTW: Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Macedonians etc are considered Yugoslavs i.e South Slavs. Whether so or not, I sure agree - Long live all.)

So if Tesla's statements about his Croatian homeland are not in dispute (and they do not seem to be as they are used as references) , than it is not clear at all how do those references support the notion of Tesla being a Serbian-American inventor ?

Taken into account his American naturalization, what both of these references [2,3] do claim is that - Tesla is/was a Croatian-American inventor of Serbian ethnic origin.

Perhaps not to mix ontological categories in that combination to begin with.

Those who claim Croatia was at the same time a kingdom part of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy - if they do have a point for this case - it can be only that Tesla was an Austro-Hungarian-American inventor. Which they do not claim, so that point is unclear to say the least.

Here is an additional interesting quote, given in Zagreb, capital of Croatia. http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/et22a2.html#tesla - When his mother died, he paid a visit to Croatian capital Zagreb in 1892, where he gave a lecture about alternating current. On that occasion he said:

- As a son of my homeland I feel it is my duty to help the city of Zagreb in every respect with my advice and work (Smatram svojom duznoscu da kao rodjeni sin svoje zemlje pomognem gradu Zagrebu u svakom pogledu savjetom i cinom), http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/teslazg.jpg



By the way: August Senoa is considered a Croatian writer (with no dispute I am aware of) and his ethnic origin is German and Slovak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_%C5%A0enoa

Ivo Andric, a nobel prize winner for literature is an ethnic Croat, born in Bosnia and Herzegovina (at the time ALSO part of Austro-Hungarian empire) - yet it is frequently claimed as a Serbian author. Possibly by the same ever watchful editors for whom Tesla is not a Croatian-American inventor - of Serbian ethnic origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_Andri%C4%87 “Because of Andrić's unique circumstances (born in Bosnia to Croat parents, later living and working in Serbia), he is claimed as part of Serbian literature,[24][25][26][27] Croatian literature,[3][28] and Bosnian literature.[29]”


I was curious how Wikipedia treats Einstein in this respect and here is what one can find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein Albert Einstein […] was a German-born theoretical physicist […]. A “new” and quite an interesting approach. No mention of Switzerland or USA – and he was also a naturalized citizen. No mention of Einstein’s ethic origin either. German born. So what is all that all about? Are there some guidelines/standards/logic at least Wikipedia-self consistent that top editorial staff should worry about?

If this was a standard, Tesla would be “a Croatian-born inventor”. Good enough? Or Austro-Hungarian-born inventor? Same for Andric - Austro-Hungarian-born novelist?


To distinguish the situation from Einstein’s at the same time, I want to stress how fondly was Tesla referring to Croatia as his Homeland in all of the above citations.

To conclude, citing Tesla as a Serbian inventor with two (of more possible) of Tesla’s own references on his Croatian homeland/fatherland , is a blatant logical (above all) mismatch. If editors (i.e. whoever changes things the fastest) are not willing to call Tesla a “Croatian-American inventor of Serbian ethnic origin” (to cover all basis unless Austro-Hungarian-born is considered better) – they should then change their own references to something that would make their statement self-consistent - false or true. Just as if it matters.


PS. I wrote this hoping that at some level of the top editorial staff someone will have enough sensibility to put things in a logical, self consistent and meaningful order. I do not have time to compete with watchful “fixers” and I did not even attempt to change the statement on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla to something more meaningful (and more consistent with provided references). I hope someone at top editorial level will. But if not, please leave at least this post alone as is.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinah333 (talk • contribs) 20:06, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dinah, welcome to Wikipedia. :) Please don't forget to add a signature to the end of every post. At the end of your comments simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. There is also a shortcut on the edit bar to do it with a single click.
I believe you are completely misunderstanding how ethnic labels, especially hyphenated-American labels, work. It does not matter where you were born. If Tesla says "I am a Serbian", then we say he is a Serbian. It's just as simple as that. He has never said he was Croatian, only that he was born there. However, since he did say he was born in Croatia, then we say so too, which the article does clearly explain in the very first section after the lede.
For additional examples of hyphenated logic, consider African-American individuals. The vast majority were not born in Africa, but they and/or their families have historical ethnic ties there. Also, very few Japanese Americans were born in Japan. In the same way, US Senator John McCain, was born in Panama while his military family was there temporarily. That does not at all mean that he would ever call himself a Panamanian-American. He has no ethnic ties there. So birthplace is irrelevant to someone saying "I am a Serbian".
Regarding your point on Albert Einstein, here is a quote from the Wikipedia discussion that decided how to word that article: "His cultural background, namely, a fairly average German-language middle class one, with little or nothing that was specifically Judaic, and little or no relation to whatever goes through the Anglo-Saxon (Jewish or not) collective consciousness when it uses the term "Jewish". Now I don't personally agree or disagree with that, but it does show that, even though he was Jewish by blood, they were looking at more than only pure racial heritage by itself. It was vastly different for Tesla, who's father was a minister in the Serbian Orthodox Church. The family "tenaciously" observed Serb ethnic traditions, and lived as transplants in Croatia.1. --Tom Hulse (talk) 09:27, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
So since Tesla referred to Croatia as his homeland, would he not be a Croatian-American inventor or Serb-Croatian inventor. His ancestry goes way back in Croatia. This not comparable to McCain.
     128.205.101.232 (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment1

The Croatian PM himself said that Tesla was a Serb who was born in Croatia. This happened at some kind of anniversary in Smiljan last summer. He said it loud and clear, and it was broadcast everywhere. Croatia does not have PM. Both Tesla's parents were born on the territory of Croatia. Tesla never lived in Serbia nor did he ever have Serbian citizenship. His ancestors were Serbians, but that's about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.163.8 (talk) 21:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Tesla parents not only did not born in Croatia, they never lived one day of their life in Croatia, nor they had Croatian citizenship. They lived and died in Austrian Hungarian Empire, Lika, Smiljan. Tesla as well, he did not born in Croatia, he did not live single day in his life in Croatia, he was also born in Austrian Hungarian Empire, Lika, Smiljan, he just come once for visit to Croatia. That is it. So to conclude, only thing Tesla have in common with Croatia, is that he visited Croatia once in his life. Except the fact Croatians burned his house twice, destroyed church his father was preaching in, killed 11 of his relatives in concentration camp Jasenovac that was run by Croats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.185.45 (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarian Inventor?

Moved from talk page per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus, see contribution history for attribution.

He wasn't born in Serbia but in the Austrian Empire? Or perhaps Austro-American. Nationalists are getting to0 extreme on here. 173.56.116.63 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can see this IP contributions and see from where this comes from. All threads questioning nationality and place of birth should be moved to the subpage, so there Croatian nationalists can put all their frustration regarding Tesla. Cause otherwise this will never stop until we don't put a huge Croatian flag in top of the article, and even then they will be wanting more and bigger flags... FkpCascais (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
"Anyone can see this IP contributions and see from where this comes from." Then you can see I live in America.... 173.56.116.63 (talk) 21:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I have reached a conclusion down below. And look lets not pretend Serbian nationalists aren't also present. It seems to me year by year Tesla is further distanced from anything Croatia. Might as well have a giant Serbian flag too. But lets be civil and leave snarky comments for the immature. I assume you are Serbian based on your wiki profile. I am a Croat. Lets show readers we can be civil. Getting into arguments with Asdisis will, labeling so and so nationalist or accusing those of that, who disagree with you produce no results. Civil discussion, no name calling is what makes a fruitful conversation. Most of what Asdisis writes is true. Croatia existed under UStrian rule, had bans, people identified themselves as Croats. What I disagree with is that some say Croatian nation existed. It did not exist as an independent nation at that time. Tesla did regard Croatia as his homeland.He related to the society there. But is nationality was Austrian turn American. I explain below.173.56.116.63 (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Tesla is Serbian-American. My reasoning is even if Croatia were totally independent of Austria and was it's own nation and Tesla were born and raised there, nationality is dictated by the most current citizenship status. For example, if I were a Croat born and raised in Serbia and later immigrated to America and got an American citizenship, I would be defined as a Croatian-American. All this arguing in this talk page is futile. 173.56.116.63 (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The current state of the article is what most scholar sources say. And btw it is quite neutral and extremely correct. This issue was extensively discussed in the past, you presented no valid reason to change it but your opinion and the mention of the same source already debated (the Tribute to King Alexandar). We discussed that already, the Tribute was weighted, zillion of other sources were as well. So it is useless to drag this on. Incredible how some of you Croats just cant handle this and are capable of everything just to remove mentions of Serbia and add more mentions to Croatia. This really needs to stop. FkpCascais (talk) 20:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, you said "if I were a Croat born and raised in Serbia and later immigrated to America and got an American citizenship, I would be defined as a Croatian-American.". So that means you agree with current wording, so why are you opening a new thread and wanting to make any changes? FkpCascais (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I originally opened this thread because I though his nationality should be Austro-Hungarian. Upon further thinking I came to a different conclusion. I present no valid reason to change it becuase I don't want to change it. I don't understand your reply. I left it here to serve purpose as an explanation to those who think he should not be named Serbian-American. Why are you being so hostile towards me? "Some of you Croats"? I am agreeing with you yet you show contempt just because I am Croatian. I mentioned Tesla's quote to explain yes he acknowledged Croatia, but He is not Croatian by nationality. You also just took what I said "It seems to me year by year Tesla is further distanced from anything Croatia" and reversed it and added blame towards Croats? How am I removing mentions of Serbia? When did I say he wasn't Serbian? I see no one here saying he isn't an ethnic Serb. What is with the contempt against Croats? Is this how you treat people in the talk section? With hostility? I think you need to stop and I hope your comments get reviewed. You are no better a Serbian nationalist then the Croatian nationalists you keep obsessing about. 173.56.116.63 (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I apologise. But recently we had so much vandalism here so by your intial statement you just looked like the same old story. I really don't have any contempt towards Croatia, on the contrary, what happends is that I do have contempt towards nationalistic POV-pushers, from wherever they are. If it happened to be Serbian editors here wanting more Serbia I would have reacted the same way, it just happened that we had a series of Croatian based accounts opening this same questions over and over here. Tesla desnt deserve this. We don't deserve repeating same old discussions over and over again. The current state of the article actually sumarises everything so basically no part feels loosing and only mentions basic undisputed facts, so every time I see someone wnting to change things to one side I see trouble coming. Will you accept my apologies? FkpCascais (talk) 21:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
No worries, Apology accepted. I can understand the frustration when dealing with nationalists. Almost every historical topic from the ex-Yugoslavia region are like this. They act like someone will erase them from history. I too am firmly against revisionism. My quote early was about huge argument long ago, some guy demanding Tesla be labeled a Serbian Orthodox Christian vs Orthodox Christian and that it was a Serbian Military Front. Yes still debated. There was even some guy claiming Tesla was a Croatian Orthodox Christian. I couldn't believe it was being brought up. We share the same opinion though. I have read up on much of Tesla and know he was not the kind to obsess over this stuff. He was a huge advocate for Southern-Slav union after all. Please do keep my analogy about citizenship here though. I think it pretty much disintegrates and argument to change Tesla's nationality. 173.56.116.63 (talk) 22:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for accepting my apologies. What is even more painfull is when something is exhaustively discussed, all aspects analised, sources gathered, and some concrete consensus is reached, and then people just come an ignore everything and make same old claims and then we go on and on. The thing is that Wikipedia is an excellent project, but it is based on volunteer work, and this discussions absorve you huge ammounts of time. That happened here at Tesla regarding how to present nationality, place of birth and ethnicity, we lost months in order to make the best possible solution which would be fair, neutral, backed by reliable sources and in compliance to all policies. So when I saw your thread talking again about it, I just couldn't beleave it. Indeed sorry. Why don't you make an account and start contributing regularely? We allways need more fine editors. FkpCascais (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Months spent debating his nationality, place of birth and ethnicity? Tesla will become better known for being a nationalist's propaganda piece rather than his career in science. Thank you for taking the time to deal with that though. Good to know articles here are heavily researched. As for joining Wikipedia, I'm not much of a historian, I mean I enjoy reading about historical events and figures. Perhaps I could help out with combating vandalism, grammar, things of that nature? 173.56.116.63 (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Of course. Those are things many of us do the most. Once you have an account you start having a "Watchlist" of all articles you edited (you can also add all articles you want without needing to edit them, you will see that later) and than you see all changes made on them. You don't need to be an historian at all, actually it wouldn't even count if we were historians, because it doesn't matter at all what we personally think regarding subjects, but what reliable sources say. So our goals here is to collect WP:RS regarding certain issue and then come with a fair neutral result. Often, it is possible to have issues which have surces saying different things. Then we need to gather as much sources as we can and see which are more numerous. It is a process of building consensus. You can find most at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. It may look borring at firt but those are actually the rules here. I will be really glad to help you, Wikipedia once you get started becomes really addictive :) FkpCascais (talk) 23:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


Yes I know, but hear me out.

Moved from talk page, see contribution history for attribution. Esquivalience t 01:24, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I know this horse has been beaten to death, but should it not, for the birth place be, Smiljan, Croatian Military Front, Austrian Empire? That was the region Tesla was born in. Though I don't understand why Military front isn't mentioned in the article here. Looking at this page, Vjekoslav Klaić, They list town, territory, then empire. It makes factual sense. Would make good comprise and perhapsh shut up all this question to Tesla’s birthplace. Also why does it say he moved to karlovac,Croatia when there was no Croatia at that time?2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Tesla was born in Smiljan. At time of his birth, Smiljan was part of the Military Frontier, Austrian empire. In 1870 he moved to Karlovac to attend Gymnasium Karlovac. Someone brought a source where it says it was in Croatia at that time, that is why it says that way in the article. Seems that Karlovac had been already transferred from the Military Frontier to the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia by then (see Karlovac history section). Later in 1875 Tesla moved to Graz to attend the Graz University of Technology with Military Frontier scholarship. So you precipitated yourself by saying Croatia didn't existed, it did, as Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia which was not independent state but a crown land of the Austrian empire. The entire issue is that at time Tesla was born, Smiljan was not part of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia but part of the Military Frontier. Those were two separate subdivisions of the Austrian empire at the time. These are all subdivisions of the Austrian empire we ate talking about here. PS: I corrected the Vjekoslav Klaić article, he was born in the Military Frontier (if anyone wants details, it was the Slavonian Military Frontier section), and not in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Hoped I clarified, best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 16:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes but my main question is why is it not stated that Tesla was born in the Croatian Military frontier? You agree then that it should not say Smiljan,Austrian Empire but instead Smiljan, Croatian Military Front, Austrian Empire? According to the wiki article on Croatian Military Fronteir, Smiljan was in this territory. Also for Klaic you left out Slavonian and just put Military Frontier. Should it not be clarified?2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 17:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
The administrative unit is Military Frontier. FkpCascais (talk) 17:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I am referrimg to Croatian Military Frontier and Slavonian Military Frontier. Also you have yet to answer about why Military Fronier is not mentioned for Tesla's birthplace. 2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 17:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
The two you mentioned were just sections of the Military Frontier, and there were other sections as well. The question you are asking is like saying, in case of United States, why don't we use between the city and country, the counties instead of the states. Your second part of the question I cant answer, I suppose it is left out because what matters mostly is the city and country, the administrative subdivisions in between are optional. Personally I wouldn't mind saying Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian empire. FkpCascais (talk) 17:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I was under the impression Croatian Military Fronteir was the State within the empire, but I see what you mean. They all make up the Military Frontier state. As for my question, if you are okay with changing the birthplace to Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian Empire, why can't you change it? 2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 17:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I am not so sure how much of enthusiasm would be there among other editors here for further touching that issue, it pretty much exhausted everyone here. But if there isn't any opposition, that edit could well be added. We can wait and see if anyone opposes, or you can add it yourself, there are many sources confirming that edit, so it doesn't seem as a problem. FkpCascais (talk) 18:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Brand new IP editors who dive right into perennial talk pages discussions should read some of the archives before making such edit proposals. In any case, there is no value to including the administrative division in which Tesla was born, any more than we should list the county or congressional district in which Thomas Edison was born. The subject of this article is the person, not the geography of the person's birthplace, or its geopolitical history.- MrX 18:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but this region is not as simple as that of the United States. Never thr less, look at other notable peole from this region, Military Frontier is listed. Why is Tesla ousted from this? It's a simple fact. Even FkpCascais agrees. I may be new, but it makes my statement no less factual. 2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 18:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - This is used for other famous individuals from the area and is backed up by multiple sources. Jackiechan321 (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    Please see WP:OTHERCRAP.- MrX 19:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. I still support. Jackiechan321 (talk) 19:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • It is fairly obvious that a we have some sock/meat puppets here. Single purpose accounts with no history of building an encyclopedia will have little influence, particularly if they are not presenting fresh arguments. Chillum 20:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Who is a sock puppet here? Me? If so check the IP address then. Unless you are saying this to discredit opponents you do not agree with.... Jackiechan321 (talk) 21:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The issue of "Tesla's Nationality: Austrian Empire vs Military Frontier" has got to be one of the most beaten-to-death issues on Wikipedia. It was first discussed in February 2004. For the last 11 years it has been continuously debated. I suggest everyone read the 9 large archives of this Talk page listed at top, at least half this huge verbiage is devoted to Tesla's nationality. Most recently Austria vs Military Frontier was rehashed in a long RFC:Should Tesla's birthplace be changed? June 2014, in which the current wording was confirmed. The one thing we can all be sure of is that this tiny proposed change will not "settle" the issue, it will only encourage POVPUSHers on both sides as they see that their efforts can be rewarded.
What do you mean "Austrian Empire vs Military Frontier" He is both! He was born in Smiljan, Croatian Military Front, Austrian Empire. This is academically fact. Other people born in that area around same time are listed as such. Croatian Military Front is IN Austrian Empire. A region that answered to the crown. No one is comparing the two... Sure, you could ignore this and leave it as is, but that will prove Wikipedia to be less credible. Jackiechan321 (talk) 21:16, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't have strong feelings about the wording but I agree with Chillum and MrX above, the administrative division is not notable. I think the current wording is historically accurate. More importantly I think unbiased NPOV editors need to defend the Wikipedia principle that once all the relevant information has come to light (the recent research of Asdisis above was not relevant; it relied on SYNTHESIS) and a consensus has been achieved, the consensus should stand a while. Before we reopen Jarndyce vs Jarndyce, I suggest everyone ask themselves: is this really helping the article? --ChetvornoTALK 22:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm just going by the precedent set by other Wikipedia articles about people for the similar time and area. But seems there are those here that want to ignore it for some reason. Asdisis is baseless. Tesla is not a Croat, and has nothing to to with Croatia, no matter what he wishes to think. Jackiechan321 (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

European historians: Croatia-Slavonia was a Hungarian province, there was no Croatian citizenship or nationality

Moved from talk page, see contribution history for attribution. --ChetvornoTALK 03:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


Reference 1. The Millennium of Hungary and Its People edited by József Jekelfalussy Pesti könyvnyomda-részvénytársaság, 1897

Page 230: However it is only the affairs of Religious service and Public instruction which in their fullest extent belong to the province of territorial autonomy whereas in the province of home affairs with regard to questions of association, of passports, of police supervision over foreigners, of the rights of citizenship, and of naturalization, the executive only belongs to the autonomy; while the legislation on these subjects is a common one. For this reason there is also no separate Croatian citizenship.

Pages 234-235: The organization of the Croatia-Slavonian-Dalmatian National Assembly is on the basis of the one chamber system and the principle of indirect votes for the great part:

...

Deputies are chosen according to districts, i.e. every district chooses a deputy. The conditions for the possession of a vote are (a) Hungarian citizenship; (b) the fact of belonging to a Croatian-Slavonian community ...

Reference 2. Catholic World, Volume 109, Paulist Fathers, 1919

Pages 349-350: Hungarian writers assert that Croatia was reduced by force of arms. She lost entirely autonomous life and was incorporated as a conquered province in the Hungarian kingdom. "An independent Croatia is an historical absurdity," writes C. M. Knatchbull-Hugessen. "Croatian citizeship is a myth. The king of Hungary is at the same time the king of Croatia". "From a political point of view,' writes Jellinck, "Croatia and Slavonia are nothing than fully equipped provinces of Hungary"

Reference 3. The Political Evolution of the Hungarian Nation, Volume 2 by Cecil Marcus Knatchbull-Hugessen Brabourne (4th Baron) National Review Office, 1908

Pages 312-313: The Habsburg who is crowned King of Hungary, ipso facto becomes King of Croatia - an indivisible part of the realms of the Sacred Crown, so expressed by the laws of 1723 and 1868. The Ban does not come in direct contact with the King, as he would necessarily do if he were the chief official of an independent State, but communicates with the Crown through the Croatian member of the Hungarian Ministry, who is responsible to the Hungarian Parliament, whose countersignature is necessary to give validity to the countersignature of the Ban of official nominations and other royal acts. Further the Ban himself is nominated by the Magyar Prime Minister, who countersigns the royal appointment made in pursuance of such nomination. There are no Croatian or Hungaro-Croatian Ministers or Parliament within the realms of St. Stephen. Parliament is Hungarian, and the Ministers are Hungarians servants of an indivisible State of which Croatia-Slavonia forms an integral part. There is no Croatian citizenship or nationality. As a member of the Sacred Crown Croatia was affected by the results of the Compromise of 1867, and as such member would have no power of independent action should the law of that year be abrogated or modified, save in so far as it is entitled and enabled to make its voice heard through its delegates to the Hungarian Parliament should a revision of Compromise affect its local or common interest, or necessitate an alteration of financial relations with Hungary on whom Croatia's insolvent autonomy lays a considerable burden.

Bottom line. Protect Wikipedia dignity by preventing blogging, trolling, and spamming on this talk page.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


I won't touch to the position of Croatia within Austro-Hungary since I'm involved in the discussion about Tesla's citizenship. You can start the discussion in the talk page of Croatia-Slavonia article. However the claim that "Croatian citizeship is a myth" does not tell us anything new. Again it is not specified is the assertion regards national or local citizenship, so I'm doing under the assumption that it refers to national. Then I agree, no separate Croatian national citizenship. If someone does not agree with my assumption, then we can not know if the source is speaking about national or local citizenship. Asdisis (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


I concur. My sources also tell that the separate Croatian national citizenship does not exist, neither I had claimed it existed. In my opinion this source is speaking of national citizenship. Local citizenship is another question and if the source does not specify which it is referring, it is reasonable to conclude it is speaking of national citizenship. If it is for someone not reasonable to think so, then we this source does not help us at all, because it does not state which citizenship (national or local) it is referring. I add this source to my claim that there exists single citizenship for all lands of Hungarian crown, called Hungarian in Hungary and Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary. I never advocated that a separate Croatian national citizenship exists, and your subjectivity has led to your misinterpretation of my claim although I stated it clearly multiple times. Asdisis (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Again, no Croatian national citizenship. I, and my sources agree with this source perfectly. It is only your subjectivity that led to misinterpretation of my perfectly understandable claim. Tesla had Croatian-Hungarian citizenship which is also called Hungarian citizenship in Hungary. One thing, two names. I think I've been clear, and my sources confirm that claim. Your source have not touched on the matter of local citizenship. Well one has, and I thank you for that, but it did in a way that would need an original research to say that. On the other hand I presented sources that speak specifically about local citizenship. Asdisis (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Lastly, this all sources are not talking specifically about national and local citizenship, and we can not use original research to draw conclusions by ourselves. My sources deal with national and local citizenship specifically and no original research has to be done to understand what are they talking about. No one had objected that original research has to be done do understand my sources, only that original research has to be done to specify the claims sources prove to Tesla. I'm involved in a discussion which will determine if that is true, but the sources I presented stand not unchallenged in their claims. I thank to you to your approach to disprove me with sources. That is the right way done in good faith, unlike the presented misconduct of some people in this discussion. Asdisis (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Is it possible to prevent further trolling and spamming here? 'Local citizenship' is a figment of imagination of some third rated Croatian college teacher.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 12:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Not only here but generally in all discussions here and on wikipedia in general. Unfortunately, your sources speak only of national citizenship ,at best, since it is not specified, but a general assumption from the context is rational, if not then the sources are completely useless (but I do not support that stand) thus your claim about local citizenship is unfounded. Also your sources perfectly agree with my sources. However one source is interesting because it specifically talks about local citizenship. The quote "Deputies are chosen according to districts, i.e. every district chooses a deputy. The conditions for the possession of a vote are (a) Hungarian citizenship; (b) the fact of belonging to a Croatian-Slavonian community ...". This quote talks both about local and national citizenship. Note that "local citizenship" is the translation of the term "zavicajnost", which is defined by my sources as "a belonging to certain municipality ( your source says community)". My source is a second hand source and I had used the translation it uses, and that is "local Croatian-Slavonian citizenship". I think you have problems with the word "Croatian" out of subjective reasons, but I hope you are reasonable enough and that you will believe your own sources. I and all the presented sources perfectly agree with this sources you presented, and I hope we will agree as well at the end. Let's resolve this question objectively and it the sources use the "so hated word Croatia" then be it. I am against the what some editors suggests, that to use the word Croatia(n) is by default nationalistic rage, and so on. I have nothing against Croatia, nor Serbia nor any other word the sources use. Asdisis (talk) 13:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I disagree with the term "Hungarian province". See the definition of province. The sources mentioning "province" where non-Hungarian sources, without any official or legal declaration, just the author POW was to use the term "province". Croatia in legal terms was never a Hungarian province, not even just an administrative division. It was an autonomous entity, a country that was with personal union with Hungary. I hope I do not have to repeat more. Croatia had it's own administrative divisions, like Lika-Krbava. "Croatia-Slavonia was an autonomous kingdom within the Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen (Transleithania), the Hungarian part of the dual Austro-Hungarian Empire." -> An AUTONOMOUS KINGDOM, a separate country from Hungarian point of view. 65.220.39.79 -> professional precisity, or nothing. Force citations working from official, legal documents, not individual POWs. Thanks(KIENGIR (talk) 21:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC))
I agree but this is a completely different discussion from Tesla's citizenship. We should not clog the discussion about Tesla's citizenship. Asdisis (talk) 07:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

A practical solution to the entire debate

I have a suggestion that will end all the debate about Tesla's citizenship (and the related debates about his ethno-nationality, heritage... etc. etc). Unless there is evidence to show that Tesla himself cared about such things, that it was a defining characteristic to Tesla himself (inspiring him to become an engineer and invent things), I find the whole issue irrelevant. So... I would suggest simply OMITTING it entirely. Choose NOT to mention it. Nothing requires us to state someone's citizenship (or his ethno-nationality, or any of the other labels that are involved in this debate). It does not matter whether Tesla was an Austrian, a Croat, a Hungarian, a Serb, or even if he was Chinese. What matters is that he was a brilliant electrical engineer and inventor. His citizenship, his nationality, his ethnic heritage, etc... none of that is important to understanding who Tesla was and what he did. All of this debate is about nothing but unnecessary background TRIVIA... which can be left out of the article (especially since, no matter what we say, it will engender debate). Blueboar (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

It's too subjective to show how Tesla felt himself. For instance Tesla himself stated that he was born in Croatia, and FkpCascais says he lied. Also, maybe it doesn't matter to you which citizenship Tesla had, but we can't decide for everyone. Sorry, but I don't agree we should run from hard discussions but tend to resolve them. Asdisis (talk) 17:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
OK... let me put this another way... why is Tesla's citizenship (or ethnicity, nationality, etc) relevant? Why do we need to mention it? Blueboar (talk) 19:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Disagree - There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to change the current state of the article which pretty much represents what the majority of sources say. This current state was accomplished by consensus. There is only one user, Asdinsis, who is constantly trying to change things but doesn't accomplish support for it. He is the one who should accept he doesn't have support for the proposed changes, and the article should not suffer because of his disruption at the talk-page. 20:45, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
The question of Tesla's birthplace does not represent what the majority of sources say. It is interesting that a person who so strongly advocated against the majority of questions in one case advocated for what majority of sources state in other case. Asdisis (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Please see the archives and stop spreading lies. If you want to make a change, make an edit-request althought you already made dozen requests and none was accepted, so you are becoming extremely disruptive now. PS: I am obviously talking of scholar reliable sources. PS2: Please stop answering to every single post some user is making. FkpCascais (talk) 20:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Apart from this I made 2 requests. One was accepted and the other one yielded no consensus. About what the majority of the sources say, we will see in the following discussion. Yes, I agree I post too much. I'm already reducing the length and the number of my posts. Asdisis (talk) 21:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Asdisis has support. He has my full support for the changes he wants to make, see the discussion above.--Michael Cambridge 02:44, 5 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)
Obviously you support him, you are a one-purpose account. FkpCascais (talk) 15:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Disagree I don't have strong feelings about Tesla's nationality, but I do about making Wikipedia's consensus process work. I think there is a consensus on Tesla's nationality. Allowing one or two partisan, POVPUSHing editors to use WP:BLUDGEONing tactics to dominate the debate and get their personal WP:OR accepted just encourages such tactics on other articles. --ChetvornoTALK 01:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You are all missing the forest for the trees. I would like an answer to my basic fundamental question... WHY does the article need to discuss Tesla's nationality/citizenship/ethnicity in the first place? WHY is it important for the reader to know this information? If no one can answer this basic question, then I would argue that the information is essentially irrelevant, and should be omitted completely. Blueboar (talk) 13:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Because it is linked to his life. Because most scholar reliable sources present him as Serbian/American scientist (we went through that). We have no reason whatsoever to to dismiss that information despite your wishes or disruption that some vandals may cause to the article or the talk-page. Chetvorno pretty much answered to you the problem here, you are the one missing the forest in this problem. The article is not discussing anything, it simply states the basics backed by scholar reliable sources. We will not desmiss scholar reliable sources just because you came up with this idea in order to solve the disruption one or two editors are causing to the talk-page. FkpCascais (talk) 13:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
No, the Serbian-American is derived from cherry picked sources. The fact that a subjective person with a strong contempt towards Croatia is happy with the current state of the article is only a statement to the objectivity of the article. Asdisis (talk) 14:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
SUPPORT I agree with you because the sources are ambiguous. However I disagree we should ban all together such edits. We now have one source that states "Tesla stated Austrian" in USA and a bunch of other sources that say "Austrian" was used in the context of international relations and not in the context of citizenship. We can not resolve our question on one source that deals with the question in only half a sentence and without any footnote. I agree nothing should be stated until sources that deal more extensively with Tesla's citizenship are presented. I do not agree to ban all together some content to be stated in the article, we do not live in North Korea. Also we should remove all claims that are ambiguous. For instance the claim that Tesla was Serbian-American scientist which is derived from cherry picked sources. Either remove it all together or state that some sources say so, other state Croatian scientist, and others state Yugoslav scientist, and so on...to include the most common statements made by all sources. Asdisis (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Here it comes, sure, you love it, as you didn't get what you want, so lets remove everything, how nice for you. The scholar reliable sources are not ambiguous. Please look at past discussions and accept it once and for all. You don't have any scholar reliable sources which are ambiguous, just a couple of weak sources. I don't mind going through this again and showing you that the vast majority of scholar reliable sources back up the current state of the article. For God sake. FkpCascais (talk) 14:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
And you Bluebar are giving gasoline to this POV-pusher and basically awarding him for his persistence and disruption here. Thank you very much. Please see the archives and look by yourself the corresponding discussions. FkpCascais (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
This user is subjective and everyone who even mentioned the word Croatia is a POV pusher. He even regarded Tesla himself to be a liar because Tesla stated that he was born in Croatia. This comes in mind [1] Asdisis (talk) 14:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Of course, everyone here is subjective but Michael Cambridge of course, we are all an anti-Croatian organization working in disguise here... You have no scholar reliable sources saying he is Croatian (only one saying "of Croatian origin" and that is all regarding non-Croatian RS), we went through this, deal with it. FkpCascais (talk) 14:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
You were explained zillion of times that a correct birthplace can be traced and found in history. Even besides that, most scholar reliable sources say he was born in Smiljan, Military Frontier, Autrian empire (not my fault Military Frontier existed as separated from Croatia, and that both were part of Austrian empire and no independent Croatia existed back then). The fact that Tesla on one informal letter said he was born in Croatia (by time of the letter Smiljan was part of Croatia) doesn't affect historical accuracy and reliable sources. You are not able to back your claims with scholar reliable sources neither that he is Croatian, and that is the reason why your proposals are rejected. I have a summer house in Croatia, so I don't have negative feelings towards Croatia, but me (and others here) are not racist against Croatia by not accepting your proposals of Croatization of Tesla. And now you will be reported. Enough is enough. FkpCascais (talk) 14:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
No, just you. We will see what the most sources say. However in any case a claim that Tesla is a liar when stating that he was born in Croatia is a clear example of subjectivity. A person who says that Croatian sources are to be disregarded by default obviously has some contempt. I intend to investigate Croatian sources on the question of Tesla's citizenship. Well first thing first, I said I'm going to report you, but you had refused to tell me the process, although I asked you. Asdisis (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

No, not just FkpCascais. Asdisis this is getting silly. I agree with the position of FkpCascais that the sources support that he was Serbian/American. The idea that you are putting forward that people here have a "strong contempt towards Croatia" is absurd. This may be a shock to you but most people don't even have an opinion about Croatia, I know I don't. I barely know enough about Croatia and Serbia to know the differences, but I can read the sources.

I suspect the accusations of bias are simply the result of you not getting what you want. Consider the more likely possibility that people are just trying to represent what the sources say in a neutral fashion.

When I looked at this before I was expecting contradictory sources and a muddled history. It seems that the facts are reasonably clear here and this is more a case of stubbornness.

I have seen this exact sort of filibustering before at the Muhammad article while discussing if we should show depictions or not. Same pattern, months of stubborn arguing the same points over and over, accusing others of contempt towards their culture, trying to create false hypothetical ideas to get support, and trying to twist each policy they can to their own devices. In the end we showed the pictures, because that is what we do. What we will do here is reflect what reliable sources say and disregard original research. Enough is enough. Chillum 14:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I reported him. I think we got really enough of this. This same things he has been arguing for so long without any backing of scholar reliable sources, we are just being made fun by him driving us in circles. I was just never very good in making reports and I am really afraid he will get with it. FkpCascais (talk) 15:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Good. Now this article's talk page will not be dominated by a single topic that has already been settled. Chillum 17:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
The ANI complaint about Asdisis actions on this article is here, if anyone would like to give their opinion (this of course includes you, Asdisis). --ChetvornoTALK 20:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Asdisis has been blocked indefinately. --ChetvornoTALK 20:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Chetvorno, I don't think it was necessary to block Asdisis. I find it insulting to be considered his sock/meat puppet. I came to Wikipedia because I took a particular interest in the Nikola Tesla article, especially because I couldn't fathom the reason why the article does not state from the outset that Nikola Tesla was Croatian-born. I have researched sources myself that support the fact that Nikola Tesla was Croatian-born. In the meantime Asdisis was discussing the issue, and I threw in a couple of sources I had found to help his case. I am aware that there are tensions between Serbians and Croatians on a number of matters and I have taken an interest in the political issues of the region. I understand that Serbs and Croats claim Nikola Tesla as their own and I don't see too much of a problem with that. Just as many Australians claim the actor Russell Crowe as their own although he is a New Zealander. Asdisis has made a mammoth effort here to get his points across with the support of no-one but myself. Others have made edit requests in the past to state that Nikola Tesla was Croatian-born or that he was Croat but didn't bring any new convincing evidence to the table. It is my opinion that Nikola Tesla, being the genius that he was knew exactly where he was born, and that is why he wrote- "I was born in Croatia." These words were written in his Tribute to King Alexander, October 19,1934. It is my understanding that the Military Frontier was mostly carved out of Croatian territory, and Nikola Tesla knew the territory rightfully belonged to Croatia, including the region in which he was born. It is a gross injustice to Nikola Tesla to not take his own word for it when he wrote- "I was born in Croatia." Put prejudice aside, and let reason and truth prevail here. Let's do Wikipedia proud. Let's reach a general consensus now and reflect Nikola Tesla's own sentiments that he was born in Croatia. The article needs to state from the outset that "Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian-American inventor." This needs to be stated in the interest of truth and fairness. Thank you. Michael Cambridge 13:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)
The article already says "Nikola Tesla was born... in the village of Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)". This is accurate. You and Asdisis have presented nothing new here that hasn't been argued many, many, many times before on this page. The issue of Austria and the Military Frontier has been discussed as early as 2004. Since then the issue has been continually discussed. The current wording was challenged and confirmed in a long June 2014 RfC. Enough is enough.
Your and Asdisis's research is largely from WP:PRIMARY sources and is WP:OR. Any conclusion from sources that do not mention Tesla specifically is SYNTHESIS. It sounds surprising, but Tesla saying "I was born in Croatia" cannot be considered a WP:RS on his nationality. If you want the article to say "Tesla was born in Croatia" you need to show that a majority of secondary sources, such as Tesla biographies, say specifically that Tesla was born in Croatia. That doesn't seem to be the case.
If you don't want to be taken for a sockpuppet of Asdisis, the best way is not to repeat the tactics that got him blocked, such as single-issue advocacy, long repetitive WP:BLUDGEONing arguments, and personal attacks. --ChetvornoTALK 23:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Chetvorno, I politely ask you to remove the block that has been placed on Asdisis. There is nothing to hide here. Like Asdisis said, this is not North Korea. So he bludgeoned the talk page by responding to everybody, he did so because he was pretty much a one man army. Others who share his views may still get involved in the discussion, so what do you do then, block everyone who brings new information that supports his? We don't need that kind of censorship here and I find it appalling that you have blocked Asdisis and I am appalled at those who supported it. This is the most heated debate about Nikola Tesla, it is sad, and Tesla himself may have been aware of such debates about him during his lifetime. In the name of free speech, I ask you to bring Asdisis back now. Thank you. Michael Cambridge — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs) 12:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that the best solution to all these debates is just to add the fact that Smiljan was a part of the Croatian Military Frontier. We have that wording in other articles like Josef Philipp Vukassovich and it was even in Tesla's infobox until August 2012 [2] and in the lead until March 2012 [3]. That way the issue of his birthplace will be finally solved once and for all. Tzowu (talk) 16:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Then someone else will want to put in a caveat that there was no separate Croatian citizenship in the Austrian Empire, and pretty soon we will have a whole irrelevant section on Balkan history, being continually fought over. No. The current wording is accurate. Enough is enough. --ChetvornoTALK 00:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Tzowu, Military Frontiers have been mentioned for other notable figures from the same region, why make Tesla's page the exception? It will simplyfy the issue. My entry down below explains it. I think it will end the arguments and be more factualy accurate. Current wording is quite vake for a wikipedia article. 2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F (talk) 18:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You think it will end the argument? The issue of "Tesla's Nationality: Austrian Empire vs Military Frontier" was first discussed on this page in February 2004. Take a look at the 9 huge archives of this Talk page at top. For the last 11 years the issue has been continuously debated and beaten to death. Most recently Austria vs Military Frontier was rehashed in a long RFC:Should Tesla's birthplace be changed? June 2014, in which the current wording was confirmed. The one thing we can be sure of is that changing the sentence will not end the argument, it will encourage further POVPUSHing. --ChetvornoTALK 03:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
2600:387:5:804:0:0:0:7F, your edit history says you have been editing Wikipedia for a grand total of - 3 hours, and you have 11 edits to your credit, all on Nikola Tesla. Why did you decide to edit Nikola Tesla? Did someone suggest it to you? --ChetvornoTALK 03:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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