User talk:95.168.118.10

The agreement may defined it, but defined it so ill that didn´t even specify what sections of the Military Frontier were to become "single land" with Croatia? There is an established consensus ammong historians that MF existed until 1881, there is nothing even controversial about it. Then you have the practical aspect of it; if MF became Croatia in 1850, Tesla highschool grades from Karlovac from 1970 would not have format, official seals, simbols, and all, refering to Militargrentze, but to Croatia. Tesla was lectured in German which was the primary language in MF, as MF followed stricktly same rules as in Austria. We know that by then in Croatia and Slavonia, Croatian was the main language and the language classes were lectured in, something considered a major archivement by Croats. Five years later, Tesla receves a scholarship from Militargrentze, not from Croatia. You need to uncknolledge that for some reason the Croatian "single land" didn´t become truth in 1850, that Croatia-Slavonia had to wait until 1881 to gain jurisdiction over western half of MF (before then it was uncertain what will happened to MF). By then, Tesla had been working in Budapest and Paris, and soon after will move across globe to USA. So, de jure, non jure, the thing is that de facto, Military Frontier is where Tesla was born, grew up and studied, and he obviously had a conscience of belonging to the vast majority of South Slavs inhabiting the province. Waves of Serbs escaping Ottoman oppression were setled in MF after 14th century. Take a look at demographic data of the MF and notece an hardly unintentional balance between Serbs and Croats existed, further used as excuse to declare German official over the others as way not to favor any of the two. Both Serbs and Croats lived within the MF with hopes of uniting themselves with their motherland. There was Serbian Voivodship, Croatian Turkey, the borders were ill defined, and that further contributed to the notion of some possible South-Slavic union perhaps in future, something Tesla always gave a possitive view in his writtings.

What you refuse to understand is that life in MF was different than life in Habsburg Croatia. The last was "Croatian" in every sense, represented the Croatian homeland, and was the direct successor of the Croatia which fall under Hungarian rule in 1102. Lots of euphemisms have been used to describe Croatian position within Hungary, but a crude fact is that Croatia lost its independence to Hungary and ever since fought and negociated the largest possible authonomy it could get. With Hungary (and subsequently Croatia) falling under Habsburgs in 1527, Croatian aspirations and negociation grownd shrincked. Several events contributed for the Croatian territory to be brought to minimals, although one thing is certain, Croatia at any point ceased to exist or exercise authority over at least its core around capital Zagreb (although not as independent nation, but a province within the empire). When Habsburgs took power they soon after created the Military Frontier taking territory from numerous provinces which were on the border with Ottoman empire. Because of the seccession of wars and battles, most of that territory was empty, and Austrians assumed direct control over it and populated the MF with Serbs, Croats, Germans, etc. but carefull to mantain a balance so no nationality would become dominant. You fail to understand that between 1527 and 1881 Croatia and MF live two different realities separated one from another. Croatia is focused on defending the interests of Croats within the empire and has numerous demands, ammong them to be given authority over parts of MF, while MF is a multi-ethnic province purelly in service of Austrian imperial military and focus on the war against Ottomans. Austrians held total control in the MF, didn´t even allowed Hungarians to interfere. MF and Croatia despite bordering eachother, experience vastly different realities.

So, this is what historiography says (ask me for a source if you wish for any statement), and makes one to disagree with you that saying Tesla being born and growing up in MF is the same as Croatia. It is not. MF may not have a sounding name, didn´t survived later history, but, during its existance, it made a lot of impact on A-H politics, and its multicultural and multiethnic composition made it being claimed by many, opened way for new cultural centers (Novi Sad for Serbia culturally, or Karlovci for Serbs religiously), and the ethnic mix gave way to the emergence of new ideologies which could lead to multicultural nations. You also seem to forget MF streched all way east into central Romania, and that overall population included slightly more Serbs than Croats. You refer to MF as Croatian land, but I never got to understand if you do it because you confuse MF with one of its sections Croatian Military Frontier, or you really claim entire MF, or you are not sure but you don´t want to admit it. Whatever the case, MF is one thing, Croatia another, and saying they are the same is out of question. Whatever Horvat wrote it was agreed in 1850, it obviously didn´t materialised as such, and something happened that ended up making Tesla atending highschool in Karlovac under MF educational programme and authority, and even in 1875 MF gave him a scholarship, not Croatia.

Would you allow me to ask you your age? I will tell you mine if you want. Because I cannot understand how you miss the importance that the denial of Croatian demands and aspirations by Budapest and Vienna had in the molding of Croatian politics in all these last centuries, one can even say, till today. Vienna and Budapest viciously used Croats and Serbs in their own war of interests, with actually little real regard for them. Alliances with empty promesses, small irrelevant gains, personal favours in inter-provincial disputes, but also using Serbs against Croats, or vice-versa. You read that paragraph of Horvat but you seem to not know about the magyarization that followed right after 1850, signs in Zagreb in Croatian being replaced by ones in Hungarian, then the lost of authonomy of 1867, restored a year later. You spoke about the Triune Kingdom as having existed. Was that a joke, or you really believe it? You know that Austro-Hungary was formed by Cisleithania and Transleithania, right? The first represented the Austrian-ruled lands, under which was Kingdom of Dalmatia, while the second represented the Hungarian-ruled lands, under which were Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) and Kingdom of Slavonia. You understand that for the Triune Kingdom to have existed, they would have needed to be all at least on one same side. However, until the very end of the empire, that division remained, and Triune Kingdom was not allowed to be formed. You can´t write things as you would like them to have happened, because then creates disconnection with the rest of the history. Some events happend, some don´t, and each affects the future in relation to what happend. The way Austrians and Hungarians kept Croats believing in a united land, but menaged to postpone it from ever happening, obviously frustrated Croatian politicians tremendously. All that accumulated frustration enters into a new dimension when in 1918 Croatian politicians see that with Austrians and Hungarians out of their way to accomplish the triunity, the project is unrealised, not even independence was archived, and the difference is that the new rulers became the Serbian dinasty Karadjordjevic replacing the Habsburgs, and that the capital was now east, Belgrade. The political life of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was marked since day 1 by the union of the Kigdom of Serbia and its previous problems, now joined by the inherence of the continuation of the same political strugle Croatian parliamentarians fought against Habsburg centralism, now only replaced by Karadjordjevic one. The very feeling Croats, specially from what was Croatia-Slavonia, had towards this new reality, was vastly different than the feeling towards Yugoslavia mostly Serbs, but also some Croats, from what was the Military Frontier and Dalmatia, had. And this is when we come back to Tesla. Tesla´s views were the exact opposite of what a common Croat from what was Croatia within A-H had towards Yugoslavia, and instead, tipical of what most Serbs from the Military Frontier had, which overwelmingly welcomed this new kingdom. Tesla, in his writings praise the Serbian king as liberator, and acknolledging it comes from a multi-ethnic region shared with Croats, continuously makes efforts to ease tensions and hopes Croats opposing the king and opposing to live in a majoritarilly Serbian country will remain minority. What you are trying to sneak into the article as being the same Habsburg Croatia or Military Frontier, is so wrong in so many levels. Having Tesla been born, grew-up and studied till highschool in Military Frontier, made all the difference in his life, and there is no possible way of replacing MF with Habsburg Croatia, cause they were two totally different provinces with very different realities. These places today are part of Croatia, but back then they wasn´t at all, and by having at that time a province called Croatia in which Tesla was not born neither grew-up in or studied, saying Tesla was born in Croatia would make it a double error. FkpCascais (talk) 23:44, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Why are you claiming that something wasn't fully defined when you obviously haven't read the agreement nor even the secondary source that is describing the agreement. And who are you to make such claims. This is exactly why Wikipedia is using secondary sources, so to avoid misinterpretation of the primary source you have provided here. MF existed until 1881, correct and not at all contested by me at all. No since the administration was separated, it's natural that the documents would have MF seals. Again one of your misinterpretations that the seals would have to be of Croatia. A claim totally made up by you. Again the language used officially in MF doesn't make any relevance to Croatia MF status as a single land. BDW, Tesla's highschool diploma are listing Croatian as mother language. So since you are trying to negate any connection Tesla had with Croatia, this must bother you a lot to see that Tesla spoke Croatian as mother language. In 1881 separate administration in MF was abolished, nothing else. The aspect of those 2 entities being a single land was in force at least from 1850. No borders were ill defined, again made up claim by you. Everything you said is focusing on separate administration and you are trying to use that to suggest MF was a separate entity, but you are constantly ignoring that I have provided a secondary source which says the exact opposite of your interpretations , that although the administration was separate MF constituted a single land with Croatia. Why are you unwilling to accept that a secondary source is stronger than your made up claims? Why is it so hard to accept that Teslas homeland was Croatia? It certainly wasn't Serbia, but you somehow feel better if it was Austria, but just not Croatia, although Tesla himself has said that he was born in Croatia. You have to make so ridiculous interpretations what Tesla meant, that Horvat is wrong that the other source from previous discussion is wrong...

Triune kingdom is a separate discussion, but I can only point that Tesla's passport was issued by the "non existent" Triune Kingdom. It must bother you a lot to see that...

Saying that Tesla was born in Croatia is exactly repeating what Tesla said...If you and I would try to convince someone unfamiliar with the whole matter, do you really thing your claims stand a chance? I have Tesla himself saying he was born in Croatia (1 primary source), I have Horvat's source saying that MF and Croatia are one land and that source directly references primary sources (1 secondary source backed by primary sources, 1 primary source). I have other, newer sources, saying the same thing, sources from which you have cherry picked sentences to hide that fact. I have Tesla's highschool diploma saying his homeland is Croatia (back when MF still existed, during his highschool education, before 1881), that his mother language is Croatian, as primary sources. :So I have 2 secnodary sources and 3 primary sources saying your unsourced claims are wrong? How many sources have you presented? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.246.236 (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Wait, I admit that error, borders were not ill defined, on contrary, borders were actually very well defined, what I meant is that ethnic spaces were ill defined. It was done on purpose by Austrians, because they used promisses of "allowing X to control province Y in future" to gain support from X leaders, while simultaneously would promisse "Z to control same province Y in future", gaining Z leaders support as well. Austrians took land from several provinces to form the MF in what was supposedly to be a temporary situation, but one can´t ignore it was a way of Austrians to show force and take what was Hungarian and Croatian land. When you see centuries passing by and MF still existing and even fortifiying, it becomes obvious Austrians are using it in its own interess. However, there was a time when that entire area was depopulated because people escaped, and Austrians were giving land to families willing to fight Ottomans. So, in a way, Croatian, Serbian, German, Romanian, settlers gained rights over those lands. That is when Austrians bring Serb priests to as far as Lika, messing the ethnical structure totally. What they archived is the hability to negociate and promisse that land to different nations. Croats never stopped claiming the Croatian and Slavonian sections of the MF, Serbs Banat and Vojvodina, in case of Ottoman retreat, both Serbs and Croats had pretentions in Bosnia, so, what I meant by "ill-defined borders" was that people knew a time was near when borders will change, but no one knew exactly how this new borders will look. Tesla knew that Lika was most probably become Croatian, but having in mind the ammount of Serbs there, nothing was certain anymore, and even some new entity in which Serbs and Croats will live together would be formed. I am explaining the mindset of that time. The major difference is that there was not this animosity between Serbs and Croats, but rather opposite, both agreed we deserved more rights within A-H. So, Tesla, despite Serb, he would support the idea that Austria should return Lika and those parts which they took from Croatia and added to MF 3 centuries earlier. But there was a difference betwen Serbs and Croats at that time. Serbs already had archived independence, it was only a question of what more land would be added to her, while Croatia still had the struggle to define itself. Hungarians were agressive to a point of removing authonomy to Croatia in 1867. For a year there was no Croatia at all and Croatian was banned in centre of Zagreb! For a year, not only there were no Croatian authority in MF, but not even in Croatia. That is why I asked your age, because often young people get driven by all those fancy names "Kingdom of Croatia", "Kingdom of Slavonia", or "Triune Kingdom", and immagine things as those names would suggest, but later one learns better history and comes to know about how much struggle Croats needed against Magyarization and just to keep some authonomy literally only around Zagreb.

I was going to continue, but, I just saw you claiming I presented none sources... That is sad because despite all, I was never dishonest with you. As if you don´t remember the walls of sources, but no problem, sources against your claim is easy to gather. FkpCascais (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't care about ethnic areas. I'm only repeating what the King,Tesla and secondary sources I provided are saying that MF was a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born and lived there. Yes administration was military, but still a part of Croatia.141.136.246.236 (talk) 17:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

July 2020

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