Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator universe: Difference between revisions

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Timeline of the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator universe

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This page is all fancruft; it's material that is entirely trivial, adds nothing of value to the encyclopedia and beyond that, doesn't even serve its purpose for fans of Alien, Predator or AvP. The reason for this is that the content isn't even accurate; the three franchises follow separate timelines and continuities, with different scales for the events-- one significant one is that in the Alien continuity, the original founder of Weyland is Peter Weyland, who founded Weyland Corp in 2012, while AvP has a Charles Bishop Weyland who founded a similar-sounding company called Weyland Industries at an undetermined time. Attempting to put these timelines together is not only fancruft, but original research that simply does not work. On top of that, not a single source is secondary; everything is first-party. I appreciate the attempt to build up the Alien, Predator and AvP articles, but this one just doesn't cut it. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 23:07, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 23:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 23:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 23:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I would argue it is very much valuable and definitely serves its purpose as it clarifies the timeline of events in this fictional universe, akin to the Star Trek timeline article, and I am certain that many fans will appreciate an article such as this (not all fans, of course, but we're not all picky). I would consider your claim of supposed inaccuracy false and arbitrary, as the three franchises don't follow separate timelines/continuities at all, and I would argue that claim of separate timelines as merely regarding personal preference and fan-speculation, because for all intents and purposes they do take place in the same universe, they merely follow different storylines within the same timeline/continuity. It's that simple.

Charles Weyland is clearly presented as the original founder of Weyland Corporation/Weyland Industries, and there's a time gap of eight years (where literally anything could have happened) between the death of Charles Weyland in 2004 and Peter Weyland suddenly rising to power in 2012 as he runs the very same company, so there's absolutely no contradiction here (it would have been a considerable contradiction if Peter founded his iteration of the company while Charles was still alive though) nor is there any actual reason to suggest that any title or brand takes place in a separate universe (after all, Alien vs. Predator intentionally takes place on the same timeline as the Alien and Predator films, so at best you could have argued that Prometheus is the odd-one out here, but even that series has been connected to Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator so the conclusion is unavoidable).

On the contrary, everything flows on and continues relatively beautifully, even if not entirely perfect, but no fictional timeline does. Again, with all the media taken into consideration, for all intents and purposes these franchises takes place in the very same timeline/continuity/universe and there appears to be no actual reason to attempt to separate them other than personal preference. They are simply far too interconnected. Not to mention attempting to separate them would be a confusing mess, and the simplest and most logical approach is to assume continuity, especially when everything fits together so well and when 20th Century Fox doesn't really care how much they connect these franchises as long it makes money, and it obviously does or else they wouldn't still be continuing in persistently promoting and acknowledging a shared universe through films, games, novels, comics, and various other media and merchandise. - TurokSwe (talk) 06:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hard delete This is total fancruft without proper sourcing or notability. It's just another example of Turko's continued attempt at forcing AvP cruft onto this website, which is the reason he was topic banned for a time. This is fine for a Wikia, but not Wikipedia.★Trekker (talk) 14:28, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Any minor issues such as proper sourcing can be fixed, and the timeline helps the reader keep track of the events transpiring throughout this elaborate fictional universe in the same manner that for instance the Star Trek timeline article does. I'm not "forcing any fancruft" at all, I'm simply constructing a timeline based upon known material from the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator universe as it actually exists, and surely you're not suggesting the contents in the article aren't present in existing media relating to these franchises? They do have sources after all. I understand the reality of these franchises being connected is strangely really uncomfortable for some people and therefore I must be triggering some kind of nerve by even suggesting that Alien vs. Predator exists (and it undeniably does), but that would not only seem like an overreaction over mere products of entertainment but it also hardly seem like sufficient reasoning for opposing the existence of this article, and the same can of course be said about using argumentum ad hominem fallacies. I would hope that we could avoid that as it doesn't make for a very civilized and productive discussion. - TurokSwe (talk) 15:18, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If they share a timeline, then why are you the first person to try and put them together? Your sources certainly don't do that for you. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 15:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's like asking "if my wife is really pregnant then why doesn't the baby have a name yet?" It simply doesn't follow logically that "there is no shared universe" just because nobody up until any specific point has decided to construct and publish a Wikipedia article on the timeline of said universe. When such an article is published or who published it first is completely irrelevant. That's just nonsense. The sources and media listed in the article (as well as multiple sources and media yet to be listed) makes it abundantly clear that a shared universe exists. I don't see how this could possibly be ignored (objectively speaking). - TurokSwe (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's not nonsense, as I wasn't referring to just Wikipedia; I was referring to the intrinsic basis of this article. The three timelines that you've scraped together into one make for purely original research - they do nothing but contradict each other and are complete fancruft, devoid of any encyclopedic or even accurate value. I'd suggest you read Wikipedia:NOTSOAPBOX, as you're mounting the exact same campaign that you received the six-month topic ban for earlier this year. DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 19:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed logically incoherent nonsense, as previously explained, and I merely used Wikipedia as an example, but perhaps you'd like to elaborate and clarify. This article is certainly far from being the only place to acknowledge a shared universe, but I suppose that's irrelevant. What supposed considerable contradictions exist within the timeline and how do they actually matter in comparison to contradictions found in other fictional timelines from other franchises? Because to my knowledge there are no clear contradictions present, and certainly none that contradict a shared universe, and all the information listed in the article is verifiably accurate. I'm not sure what you're trying to have said with "NOTSOAPBOX", nor do I see how this situation is in any way similar to the odd situation from earlier this year (other than two individuals in particular reacting strangely and strongly negatively towards my attempts to improve and expand the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator articles, still leading me to increasingly suspect the explanation being some kind of personal anti-AVP-bias which tends to be a big trigger for some fans). - TurokSwe (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:SYNTH. Alien (franchise) is quite sufficient. Also, the level of detail is way, way, way over the top, e.g. "Last known case of cholera", "Days after his 14th birthday, Peter Weyland is granted a Method Patent for a synthetic trachea (a cure for lung cancer) constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells. It is his 12th registered patent to date." Clarityfiend (talk) 19:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you'd like to make the same case in regards to Timeline of Star Trek. - TurokSwe (talk) 19:56, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm personally not fond of timelines at all, especially not for in-universe ones for franchises, but I would never compare Star Trek to this.★Trekker (talk) 00:28, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete copy-violation, G12 added Atlantic306 (talk) 19:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Response delivered. - TurokSwe (talk) 20:02, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: This page was just Speedy Deleted by @DESiegel: and instantly recreated by TurokSwe, with the bulk of the content removed. It's still original research, in that it attempts to combine the timelines, even though they have three separate continuities. It's rare for an editor to recreate a page immediately after Speedy Deletion, so I'm not entirely sure how to proceed with this discussion. Thoughts, @*Treker:, @Clarityfiend:, @Atlantic306:? DÅRTHBØTTØ_(T•C) 00:14, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- The recreation apparently omits the specifically copyrighted content from https://web.archive.org/web/20121003062807/http://www.weylandindustries.com/timeline So that deletion is no longer relevant to this discussion. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 00:25, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The current page doesn't contain the issue that prompted the speedy deletion, and it's not original research in any way as the information is supported by actual sources. There are no separate timelines/continuities, and you have not yet shown this to be the case, and the evidence seem to suggest there is only one single timeline, and even if Fox has not explicitly stated what the timeline or timelines actually look like, for all intents and purposes there is only one single timeline as suggested by the available material. - TurokSwe (talk) 00:26, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Turko needs to be pronto topic banned again, for good this time. Before this incident I have already seen him back to his old habbits on Template:Alien (franchise), and I felt it was only a matter of time until he tried something bigger, and this is it.★Trekker (talk) 00:26, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? Why do you resort to this juvenile antagonism towards me and how do you expect ad hominem fallacies to count as a considerable argument? - TurokSwe (talk) 00:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're doing the exact thing that got you topic banned before. It's not antagonism to point out that you constantly try to push AvP content on this site (the fact that you did so with major copyright violations this time is rather suprising tho, you should be too familar with Wikipedia by now to not fall in to those mistakes) and that that has gotten you topic banned before.★Trekker (talk) 00:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And what is this "exact" thing you're referring to? I'm not trying to "push AVP content on this site", I'm merely expanding the Alien, Predator, and Alien vs. Predator articles with actual material related to these franchises, and unless you want to argue that AVP doesn't exist, I would say this is a very odd complaint. You're not being very reasonable here by attempting to use every single mistake I make as some sort of argument against me and against the existence of this article. - TurokSwe (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pushing AVP cruft, and Stonewalling. Those are the exact things.★Trekker (talk) 00:51, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But you have yet to demonstrate that I've been supposedly "pushing any AVP cruft". And "stonewalling"? Coming from someone who insists on resorting to ad hominem fallacies rather than addressing the issue at hand, that's blatant hypocrisy if I ever saw it. - TurokSwe (talk) 00:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Delete This is blatant original research and WP:SYNTH Wikipedia does not (or should not) do literary analysis, it should only report published analysis from reliable secondary sources. No secondary sources are cited here. No independent reliable source has asserted that these three works of fiction share a common time line or have shared continuity. Without such sources, this simply does not belong. Even with them there might well be a notability issue. This belongs on Wikia. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 00:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not original research at all, as made clear by the cited sources alone. More sources could of course be added if needed. The cited Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report and the Fire and Stone comics alone blatantly recognizes the connection between these three franchises. - TurokSwe (talk) 00:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even if that were true, that doesn't remotly fix the problem that this page completly relies on first hand sources.★Trekker (talk) 00:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? - TurokSwe (talk) 00:51, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you honestly going to pretend now that you don't know what secondary vs first hand sources are?★Trekker (talk) 00:56, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 31: / Line 31: @@
 :::::And what is this "exact" thing you're referring to? I'm not trying to "push AVP content on this site", I'm merely expanding the ''Alien'', ''Predator'', and ''Alien vs. Predator'' articles with actual material related to these franchises, and unless you want to argue that AVP doesn't exist, I would say this is a very odd complaint. You're not being very reasonable here by attempting to use every single mistake I make as some sort of argument against me and against the existence of this article. - [[User:TurokSwe|TurokSwe]] ([[User talk:TurokSwe|talk]]) 00:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 ::::::Pushing AVP cruft, and Stonewalling. Those are the '''exact''' things.[[User:&#42;Treker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:&#42;Treker|talk]]) 00:51, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
+:::::::But you have yet to demonstrate that I've been supposedly "pushing any AVP cruft". And "stonewalling"? Coming from someone who insists on resorting to ad hominem fallacies rather than addressing the issue at hand, that's blatant hypocrisy if I ever saw it. - [[User:TurokSwe|TurokSwe]] ([[User talk:TurokSwe|talk]]) 00:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 *{{ec}} '''Delete''' This is blatant [[WP:OR|original research]] and [[WP:SYNTH]] Wikipedia does not (or should not) do literary analysis, it should only report published analysis from [[WP:RS|reliable]] secondary sources. No secondary sources are cited here. No independent reliable source has asserted that these three works of fiction share a common time line or have shared continuity. Without such sources, this simply does not belong. Even with them there might well be a [[WP:N|notability]] issue. This belongs on Wikia. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/DESiegel|<sub>DESiegel Contribs</sub>]] 00:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 ::This is not original research at all, as made clear by the cited sources alone. More sources could of course be added if needed. The cited ''Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report'' and the ''Fire and Stone'' comics alone blatantly recognizes the connection between these three franchises. - [[User:TurokSwe|TurokSwe]] ([[User talk:TurokSwe|talk]]) 00:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)